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Offlineq-bert
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Re: help on mesc extraction from peyote with pure lab chems [Re: ReoSpeedwagon153]
    #11971559 - 02/05/10 09:12 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

thank you so much for your verry useful information...it should have occurred to me earlier to use a semi-polar solvent...even though it still hasn't dried...i was able to see that it worked...cudos to you reo speedwagon
now i wont have to read theese pretentious assholes' ignorant drivel


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: help on mesc extraction from peyote with pure lab chems [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #11971679 - 02/05/10 09:31 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomDoom said:
Because peyote is everything. It is the crossing of the souls.
it is perfect the way it is. To say to the peyote "you're not perfect, let me soak you in toxic solvents and extract your innards" is a great disrespect.




:rofl:

Nature ain't perfect and technology can be used in shamanism, you know.  Better stop using a lighter to smoke weed because using the toxic solvent butane to decarboxylize the THC-A is disrespecting the Cannabis plant.  :rolleyes:


--------------------
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Offlinethe bizzle
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Re: help on mesc extraction from peyote with pure lab chems [Re: q-bert]
    #11972315 - 02/05/10 11:18 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

q-bert said:
everyone has a right to their own opinion...even differing ones. the point in posting this was to get help not to be bitched at...i have my wife for that.
have you ever even tried peyote? i doubt it. just eating 25 buttons(i really like to fly) in and of it's self can be a traumatic experience; especially for someone who has acid reflux and a stomach ulser...not to mention that i have to teach class in the university mon-sat and the after-afects of all those other alkaloids that you so highly praise can last for up to 72 hours leaving you totally cashed for the week...mescaline will leave you at baseline in 24 hours without all the horrible insomnia
and above all else, i have spent over 3000 dollars trying to receive cuttings, seeds, and plants from a wide variety of companies around the globe only to have each and every package confiscated by corrupt mexican customs officials
did it never occur to you that someone with an endless suppy of this sacred plant had had his fill, had thouroughly experimented before going on to the next step in evolution? or did you think that everyone was like you; going into things blindly, opening their mouth without thinking, and efectivly shitting the bed at every turn?
the question is are you going to help or not? or do you even know?
P.S.i have absolutly no intention of selling this...it is for my own personal use...and before you start talking about the huicholi, my wife is huicholi





quite simply, if you want MESCALINE... you can easily acquire it from cacti that grow abundantly, and do not take 15 years to mature


even then, san pedro/p. torch are still better non-extracted, and may actually be helpful for your ulcer. You would also find them much less traumatic on your body


Quote:

and like it or not mescaline is the primary psychoactive chemical in peyote.



peyote contains around 300 active alkaloids, including peyotine, which has effects somewhat akin to datura, if I'm not mistaken.

s. pedro,  p. torch, bridgesii, terscheckii, etc all contain their own alkaloid variations that give them each their distinct character. Try combining 5 different strains of cacti...mescaline could never, ever, ever take you to the places that that would, nor would you encounter spirits on such a level.

Quite simply, :cactuar: is doin thangs that pure mescaline simply cannot. :etjesus: thangs :cactuar:








here is a story that some of you may enjoy, about an experience with a cactus that doesn't contain mescaline. I can't verify to legitimacy of this but it's still pretty neat
Quote:


Very good! I have also some stuff that states this. I KNEW that lophophora diffusa does not contain mescaline. Which makes it all the more interesting , because L. diffusa is DEFINETIVELY very active as a psychotropic plant. I will hereby present an account of a L. difffusa experience.

In 1978 I undertook a journey to Mexico ( I'm living in Holland). I was a biology student at that time and was doing a minor in Botany. I read a lot of Schulte's stuff and works on ethobotany buy William Emboden. My goal was to collect some of the "lesser known" psychoactive plants from Mexico as mentioned by Emboden, bring 'em home to the lab, fractionate extracts, test the fractions on psychedelicity and discover a new pscychoactive substance.

When in Mexico i aquainted a British botanist who was specializing on cactaceae from Mexico. He was able to point out exact locations to find certain cacti. One of these was L. diffusa. Because of the relative accessibility of the particular spot where this cactus could be found I chose to at least get some specimens of this species.

I left on the day before christmas 1978 from Jalapa de Chimenez in the state of Veracruz to the city of Queretaro, 50 miles north of Mexico city, together with another english guy who was in Jalapa teaching english to rich mexicans and reading " waiting for Godot" in the meantime. The last part of the route to pole XX on the road from Queretaro to YY we traveled in the back of an old pickup truck, together with a huge pig and a barrel of gasoline. We got off at pole XX, walked up the hill by the side of the road and there they were: L. diffusa's all over the place. They are very hard to tell apart from real peyotes: there is apparently no difference in appearance: Like peyotes, this cactus has no spines. it defends itself against being eaten by sticking barely out of the ground, the main portion of the cactus being a cone shaped root which is to 6 inches deep into te ground. Like this:


Another way this species apparently defends itself is its ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE taste. My friend and I had decided we were going to find out what this cactus was all about. We set up tent in a nearby canyon, made a little fire and sliced about 10 specimens. into "peyote buttons" We tried to chew a button and swallow it, without succes: the taste was so repulsive it was impossible to swallow. Finally, by boiling 20 buttons in aguardiente and swallowing the liquid, we were able to get a fair amount of extract down our throats.

Within 30 minutes my hearing began to change: it was was like every word I or my friend said was pitched down considerably until it sounded like a growling or rumbling. This effect lasted untill well after the actual experience. Afer another 10 minutes I felt catatonic: transfixed in a motionless position. Eventually i probably fell over on my side and lay there, unable to move. I suddenly saw myself walking through the desert, the same we were currently in, until I arrived at a lonely house in the middle of nowhere. I went inside and came into what looked like a doctor's waiting room. Several indians were sitting there, apparently waiting to meet the "doctor". Eventually, it was my turn to enter the doctors office. Behind a desk there was a "man" looking like a giant peyote cactus, all green and with a "crown" like the fluffy rosette on top ofd a peyote. The man spoke, introduced himself as "doctor Roskowski" or something like that. Then he (it?) asked me " what was my reason to come and visit him?" I did not know what to answer and said something like " well, uhuhuhuh , I uuh just took some cactus to see what it was like..." He immediately went furious and made me understand that I was wasting his time and that people came to him for very good reasons, for advice etc. So he ordered someone to kick me out and told me to leave the area immediately. and I was literally kicked out of the house and was back in the desert. I walked through the desert for a long time until i saw my friend walking towards me in the distance.

At the moment we were close enough to say "how'ryadoin" I "woke up" and saw my friend standing in front of me. Later he told me he had had EXACTLY the same experience...He was frightened and wanted to leave the spot instantaneously. So we hitched back to Queretaro.

Weird huh? This is a true story! So now about: what is it? L. Diffusa does not contain mescaline, which was obvious during the "trip": there were no bright visuals, nor a "psychedelic" feeling. The whole experience could be compared better to a " delirium" you get from plants like Datura, Belladonna etc., a dreamlike state with very realistic hallucinations, without any profoundness or a lifting of spirits

Lophophora diffusa DOES contain several "(tetrahydro)isoquinolines" which could be regarded "mescaline after it reacted to other stuff" with the general structure:




--------------------
MY HAIR IS A BIRD 
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Edited by the bizzle (02/06/10 10:30 AM)


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Offlinethe bizzle
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Re: help on mesc extraction from peyote with pure lab chems [Re: klimt]
    #11972360 - 02/05/10 11:27 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

klimt said:
Why wouldn't the OP, who doesn't like all the alkaloids, consume or extract a San Pedro? It is cheap, grows rapidly, and is not endangered.

Given that Peyote can take 15 years to mature, I find a chemical extraction on the rare plant, so that the OP doesn't get a headache, just downright wrong.

San Pedro grows like weeds. Do an extraction on that.




this


:shrug:


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Invisiblethedudenj
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Re: help on mesc extraction from peyote with pure lab chems [Re: LSDreamer]
    #11974081 - 02/06/10 10:19 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

LSDreamer said:
You know, you really, really shouldn't be consuming peyote. It's been driven nearly to extinction by people wanting to trip.




i agree we need to mass cultivate it, personally i trip off the vibe a happy one gives tho a dying one still makes me trip it should be known that i such a growing plants and killed mine and had to eat it and if i could i would of preferred not eating it and just keeping them alive, happy and healthy cause they showed me much love diffusa felt better too


--------------------

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you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


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InvisibleReoSpeedwagon153
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Re: help on mesc extraction from peyote with pure lab chems [Re: thedudenj]
    #11974250 - 02/06/10 11:18 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I just find it kinda sick that this guy is consuming sulfuric acid contaminated stuff at a PH of 1, and all anyone can talk about is whether this is disrespecting the plant, etc.

Jesus, guys, maybe focus a little attention on keeping this dude from burning his tongue off?

Anyway, two major arguing points have been addressed:

1. OP cannot acquire other active cactus species.
2. OP is, in fact, dedicated to growing and propagating the endangered cactus, and has an abundance of it.

Where can the argument proceed from here? To the mystical, somewhat religious argument that chemistry should not be used on a plant entheogen?

Just remember that this is an unbroken tradition. The chemist is a shaman.

Alchemy, the root of our modern chemistry, originates from the same indigenous plant shamanism that the native american church practices today.

Amazonian natives use chemistry all the time. They mix bases with snuffs and chews to aid their absorption. They extract the alkaloids from ayahuasca and chacruna with acidified water as a solvent.

Is it the fact that some of these chemicals are toxic to humans? If so, then it is only the person doing the extraction that is in danger because (as we are learning in this thread) products of extractions must be cleaned before consumption, and usually the final cleaning should be with something non toxic. There are even many non toxic solvents and bases that can be used completely in place of toxic ones.

Environmentally of course, toxic solvents are no good. They are very difficult to dispose of. This is why non toxic solvents (especially D-limonene) are encouraged.

Is it the idea that humans shouldn't be coming into contact with psychoactive chemicals at this level of purity? Because humans have always eventually encountered higher purity residues and leftovers as a natural consequence of the use of lower purity preparations. Some psychoactives occur in nature in extremely high concentrations - like bufo toad resin, yopo and vilca, virola, and mushrooms -  and those have all been used for thousands of years.

I think I know what it is actually... It is the fact that peyote, in its natural form carries the chemical 'song' of the peyote spirit. The alkaloids act on the brain harmoniously, allowing the spirit of the plant to locate and take hold of the experience - to guide and heal humans. Different peyotes have different chemical spectrums, and they have different spirits (or different qualities of spirit, all pertaining to one major peyote spirit).

Same with mushrooms, same with cannabis, same with ayahuasca, and so on.

They all have different chemical spectrums, which are the 'songs' of the plants.

Extracting one chemical from the specific alkaloid spectrum reduces the plant spirit's influence on the experience. This strikes many as unsavory.

This is, however, the next step. The plants have led us this far, and we still have much to learn from them (especially as a culture that has abandoned their knowledge for so long), but we must inevitably take the reigns ourselves.

While the plants are there to guide and assist us along the way, they will also necessarily limit us in our progression. For eventually, the knowledge of and partnership with the plants must fall away along with the self and the ego.

There are, of course, many differing paths that lead to the same mountain top.


--------------------
“I thought naming myself ‘ReoSpeedwagon153’ on a forum was a funny idea in 2006.”


Edited by ReoSpeedwagon153 (02/06/10 12:12 PM)


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OfflineMCSteveyC
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Re: help on mesc extraction from peyote with pure lab chems [Re: ReoSpeedwagon153]
    #11974329 - 02/06/10 11:51 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Would you know how to make LSD too?


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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: help on mesc extraction from peyote with pure lab chems [Re: ReoSpeedwagon153]
    #11974347 - 02/06/10 11:56 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ReoSpeedwagon153 said:
I just find it kinda sick that this guy is consuming sulfuric acid contaminated stuff at a PH of 1,




:methisgood:


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Offlineweephar
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Re: help on mesc extraction from peyote with pure lab chems [Re: MCSteveyC]
    #11974355 - 02/06/10 11:58 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

That OP was full of shit.

There is no way a tri-lingual english teach wouldn't use punctuation.  Just putting random sludge in your mouth without testing it first is really stupid.  I highly doubt he plants 5 seeds for each cutting and is maintaining a hectacre of it, while being a professor.  His demeanor and the holes int his guy's story make me think that ShroomDoom is right and this guy is just someone looking to make a profit. 

If ShroomDoom is right that 500 grams is enough for a few families, then this guy would have done a much smaller extraction if he actually cared about peyote.  Also, if this guy really loves mescaline, and was actually born in the US, then it wouldn't be that hard for him to take a vacation to the US and get S.Pedro or other cacti.

I also, don't really care about the sacred part, but I do respect your beliefs.  But I do believe that ripping up large amounts of an endangered species is wrong and if you really need peyote, then you should figure out a way to grow it yourself.


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Life is good! (and it is also a journey)

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InvisibleReoSpeedwagon153
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Re: help on mesc extraction from peyote with pure lab chems [Re: weephar]
    #11974417 - 02/06/10 12:21 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Also, peyote itself is not only a powerful shaman, but an incredible, skilled chemist.

Peyote is like the alexander shulgin of the plant world. Except way more knowledgeable and experienced.


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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: help on mesc extraction from peyote with pure lab chems [Re: ReoSpeedwagon153]
    #11974418 - 02/06/10 12:21 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:



Just remember that this is an unbroken tradition. The chemist is a shaman.

Alchemy, the root of our modern chemistry, originates from the same indigenous plant shamanism that the native american church practices today.




:facepalm:

no that's absolutely incorrect. a chemist is not a shaman, a shaman is a healer from Tunguska. why do you all think peyote has anything to do with shamanism in the NAC?

you're going to sit here and talk to me about something you arent apart of or have no idea what the fuck it is? wow. thats all i have to say.


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InvisibleReoSpeedwagon153
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Re: help on mesc extraction from peyote with pure lab chems [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #11974486 - 02/06/10 12:36 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I guess if you want to get all picky about the word 'shaman,' you have an argument. Otherwise, you obviously know what I mean.

People using psychoactive plants, meditation, ordeal, ritual, or process to heal and develop the spirit. That is what I refer to as shamanism. Is this not what the NAC practices? As far as I know, the NAC derives its origins from mexican curanderismo, right?

Remember that you are bringing the martial energy to this discussion, not me. I am merely conjecturing and offering my opinion. This is obviously a subject that means a lot to you, and I don't want to offend. I just want to discuss these ideas, because we all use these plants in the manner that works best for us.

Though I am pretty distressed by the fact that no one, up until my post, cared one slight bit that the OP was consuming raw sulfuric acid - for all this talk about healing and stuff.


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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: help on mesc extraction from peyote with pure lab chems [Re: ReoSpeedwagon153]
    #11974548 - 02/06/10 12:46 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ReoSpeedwagon153 said:

People using psychoactive plants, meditation, ordeal, ritual, or process to heal and develop the spirit. That is what I refer to as shamanism. Is this not what the NAC practices? As far as I know, the NAC derives its origins from mexican curanderismo, right?

.



No. It derives from Tarahumara , Kiowa, and Apache medicine ways. These people were not just using plants. They were forming a relationship and praying with the peyote to petition the creator and their deities. ect. Its not just about healing and devolping the spirit. Thats a new age term. In the native ways it was never about developing any spiritual power, it was about praying to secure everything necessary. Rain, Crops, Food, Good Health, ect. Also its about giving thanks and paying dues to spiritual obligations ie. The ancestors and gods. 

The aforementioned tribes likely got their religion with peyote from the Tepecano, Cora, and other ancient inhabitants in the trans-pecos region who had been doing the same thing for thousands of years.

My problem has more to do with the use and intent of the OP. Were he extracting some alkaloid to help him with a condition and use it as medicine i might sympathize with him. However hes just extracting a large amount of medicine for what i believe is probably not medicinal or reverent use. In my eyes and in many people who know the power of the medicines view this is a waste and is detrimental. people getting high off this plant are missing the point entirely and probably doing things for self gratification. here is what a MARAKAME (shaman in your terms) told me about westerners abusing peyote:

Quote:

"one of the things that the Huichols dislike greatly are the gringo dreamers, seekers, adventurers, "trip experimenters" and wanderers from the north. And I don't blame them never having shared any of those categories. In this way the lost souls of the north become a liability and a bother. They really don't have any business there and people who end up in the desert and eat peyote without the permission of the gods, ancestors and the peyote, the permission real and not conveniently imagined, I or other marakames end up treating them (some sooner, some later) for a type of spiritual sickness. Sometimes this is fatal. And, there is not really anything called "shamanic techniques" for others to use like some invention like a can-opener. It's about relationships with the gods like you would have with people that your life and life depended upon. Only in a culture where things can be grabbed, harvested, manipulated, invented, utilized, like someone trying to force something out of someone for their particular interest, "power" and benefit without consideration of what is going on can this be imagined. And none of that would be seen worthy by the gods to bestow gifts upon a person. Only through the gods will and permission is any of this possible. And when the gods speak it doesn't matter what your skin color or background you come from




--------------------


Edited by ShroomDoom (02/06/10 01:07 PM)


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Offlineq-bert
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Re: help on mesc extraction from peyote with pure lab chems [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #11975603 - 02/06/10 03:58 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

this ill be my last post on this thread...for those of you who doubt me...me vale madres...i wont even go into the difficulties me and my wife have overcome to be together and the racism that we still endure and will always endure...very much akin to the elitism that i have found here in what is supposed to be a community of open-minded, illuminated people...if i have offended anyone with coarse or crass language and comments, I'm sorry, but I'm just sick of it
as far as how could i be so stupid to eat this...who would you have suggested that i try it on?...my dog, my wife...get real...my idea, my experiment, my responsibility...and i hope that any of you guys out there doing theese experiments will have the balls to do the same
for anyone who really cares that i do theese experiments on peyote...if you want to send me some acceptable substitutes...I'll be glad to give you an address in a private room...as klimt has offered to do. be a man(or woman) of your principals instead of spewing empty rhetoric and religious ramblings...i would also very much like to introduce some of my extended family to dmt and for me it has been the supreme teacher...way beyond mescalito
what's more if you really care about this species you should come down here and propagate it...peyote rich land only costs between 3-4 thousand dollars for a hecacre...1000m squared. i transplanted 500 plants from the surrounding regions and began to collect the seed...as only one in 50 germinate naturally...i believe i have the upper hand on natural selection
and as for shroomdoom...your comments are oxymoronic at best...what ill ness do you have to need the medicine, what makes you better than anyone else, what gives you the right to eat''medicine''...what have you done to to ensure the survival of it's species
quote from a supposed shaman
"one of the things that the Huichols dislike greatly are the gringo dreamers, seekers, adventurers, "trip experimenters" and wanderers from the north.......And when the gods speak it doesn't matter what your skin color or background you come from
racism on the face or out of the mouth of an indian is the same as on the face or out of the mouth of any other...it's ugly, ignorant and nothing shows better that they have not truly learned the lessons that mescalito so desperately wishes to teach


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OfflineDryGrain
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Re: help on mesc extraction from peyote with pure lab chems [Re: q-bert]
    #11975878 - 02/06/10 04:50 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Q-bert: :thumbup:

I would suggest starting a new thread in the Chemistry forum. I'd be interested in reading about your experiences with this extraction.


--------------------
:atom:


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OfflineDryGrain
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Re: help on mesc extraction from peyote with pure lab chems [Re: ReoSpeedwagon153]
    #11975914 - 02/06/10 04:55 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ReoSpeedwagon153 said:

Just remember that this is an unbroken tradition. The chemist is a shaman.

Alchemy, the root of our modern chemistry, originates from the same indigenous plant shamanism that the native american church practices today.






This.


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:atom:


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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: help on mesc extraction from peyote with pure lab chems [Re: DryGrain]
    #11976745 - 02/06/10 07:06 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DryGrain said:
Quote:

ReoSpeedwagon153 said:

Just remember that this is an unbroken tradition. The chemist is a shaman.

Alchemy, the root of our modern chemistry, originates from the same indigenous plant shamanism that the native american church practices today.






This.



Neither of you is in the Native American Church and cannnot say where it originates from. Why do you think you have any idea about the traditions surrounding it? Thats such a typical western mindset: the naiive believe in some kind of cultural universalism. sorry to burst your bubble buddy -NAC has nothing to do with alchemy.

A chemist is not a shaman. A chemist does not perform the same functions as an indigenous healer as the center of a culturally shared cosmology. The chemist does not make preparations for unifying and reinforcing cultural beliefs and values. The root of chemistry is a drive for a basic understanding of the processes that make up our natural world. That is science. Not idingeous healing which seeks to neither understand or uncover only to petition gods/forces(energies) to aid in survivial and success as a group.

Quote:

.what ill ness do you have to need the medicine, what makes you better than anyone else, what gives you the right to eat''medicine''...what have you done to to ensure the survival of it's species
quote from a supposed shaman




I don't extract this medicine. Nothing gives me the right to eat it over anyone else. I choose to pray with this medicine when i need to for whatever reasons. If someone calls me to the fireplace then i will pray with them for whatever reasons they have called me there. I have personally not done much for the species. I plant a few in my garden at home and i support the churches that are trying to buy land with donations. I wish i could do more but i am limited financially as are many of us.

Im not going to say that your reasons to consume peyote are less than anyone eleses, but to extract there is no reason for it. If your stomach is that bad just make tea. cmon dont be such a fucking baby i know 6 month old infants that can stomach the medicine in it's natural form. really if your relationship to it was so good you would not need to do an extraction on so much 500 grams is a lot. a westerner with a sense of entitlement to exploit an endangered plant is a dangerous thing.

This medicine can be good or bad depending on how you use it. purify your heart. Eat it the right way, then Listen to what this medicine has to tell you. thats all i have to say to you about this.


Edited by ShroomDoom (02/06/10 07:40 PM)


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InvisibleReoSpeedwagon153
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Re: help on mesc extraction from peyote with pure lab chems [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #11977631 - 02/06/10 09:18 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Jesus christ, man, the native american church was nowhere near central to my original statement.

You have chosen to focus on that aspect because you have no other argument.

I gave a very heartfelt account of my opinion on this matter, and you chose to be argumentative and nitpicky. Thanks.


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InvisibleReoSpeedwagon153
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Registered: 02/04/06
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Re: help on mesc extraction from peyote with pure lab chems [Re: ReoSpeedwagon153]
    #11977669 - 02/06/10 09:23 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

And to q bert.

Man, you have the knowledge to perform this whole extraction, yet you didn't infer that possibly there would be a lot of excess acid leftover in the final product?

Does the clear white light tek not include a final washing step?

That's all I'm saying. Don't feel too bad, I know of a few who have made this mistake, including someone who is NOT me (though it wasn't brown and goopy, it was light tan and crystalline - still killed the stomach and was much weaker than it should have been).

Remember that your stomach can generally handle things with too high a PH, as the HCL will take care of it, but too low a PH can cause a pretty harsh time.


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Invisibledwpineal
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Registered: 07/20/06
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Re: help on mesc extraction from peyote with pure lab chems [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #11980813 - 02/07/10 12:25 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomDoom said:
Quote:

DryGrain said:
Quote:

ReoSpeedwagon153 said:

Just remember that this is an unbroken tradition. The chemist is a shaman.

Alchemy, the root of our modern chemistry, originates from the same indigenous plant shamanism that the native american church practices today.






This.




A chemist is not a shaman. A chemist does not perform the same functions as an indigenous healer as the center of a culturally shared cosmology. The chemist does not make preparations for unifying and reinforcing cultural beliefs and values. 




I feel that a psychedelic chemist -  the right person - in many ways can be the above things. There are amazingly caring people that put a lot of love into their work, into the community at large, and do it for the healing of the human consciousness on the planet. The current drug war hysteria causes the relationship of the psychedelic chemist to be different in the community  - but it does not change the love, the intent, the healing intentions.

When I saw "The Chemist is a Shaman" - I knew exactly what he intended and wanted to  :congrats:

I enjoy your passion in this thread, though I feel at times you are coming off a bit confrontational. You have some interesting wisdom to share. I feel you can enlighten us that are less knowledgeable in this area in a kind and caring fashion.

I'm interested to hear more from everyone as this thread was way more dynamic than I thought when I clicked on the thread title!


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