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Invisibledr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
. [Re: memes]
    #11889736 - 01/24/10 08:10 AM (14 years, 25 days ago)

.


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Invisiblememes
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Re: MEAMS!!! - why is Ron Paul lying to us? [Re: dr_gonz]
    #11889747 - 01/24/10 08:13 AM (14 years, 25 days ago)

Awwww but i wanna knowwwwwwwww.  Don't you wanna tell me? :highfive:


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InvisibleArmFromTheAbyss
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Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 1,368
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Re: MEAMS!!! - why is Ron Paul lying to us? [Re: memes]
    #11889771 - 01/24/10 08:20 AM (14 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

meams said:
The Fed sets the Federal Funds rate.  It does not determine the interst rates of every loan made to anyone in the US.  It changes the rate banks charge to loan funds to EACH OTHER, typically for very short periods of time (overnight) in order to meet their daily liquidity requirements.





YES! Everyone who thinks the Fed has absolute power should read and understand this point. I seriously doubt that Ron Paul gets it. All I ever hear is "the Fed is printing too much money," and "they kept interest rates too low." These statements are great for youtube but they have nothing to do with the actual way money works. It's all about people's expectations, the Fed wants people to think they can flip a switch and change everything. They only have power if people believe they do.


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Invisiblememes
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Re: MEAMS!!! - why is Ron Paul lying to us? [Re: ArmFromTheAbyss]
    #11889792 - 01/24/10 08:24 AM (14 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

ArmFromTheAbyss said:


YES! Everyone who thinks the Fed has absolute power should read and understand this point.



The people on here who argue against the fed have no interest in learning how their hated economic institutions actually work.  They just want to debate the theoretical idea behind the general workings of that governmental body.

"I don't care if the doctor is injecting me with a vaccine, that bitch is poking me in the arm?!" is all I ever hear from the MM forums.


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Invisiblememes
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Re: MEAMS!!! - why is Ron Paul lying to us? [Re: memes]
    #11889819 - 01/24/10 08:29 AM (14 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

meams said:
The people on here who argue against the fed have no interest in learning how their hated economic institutions actually work.



As proof, I link you to the thread where I posted a few short chapters from some literature about how the Fed conducts it's Open Market Operations -- their primary policy tool and the EXACT MEANS by which they "print money" and inject it into the system.

These chapters outline the EXACT action the Fed commits that everyone on here hate so much.  And it got 2 replies.  I've also posted the link to it in other threads where we talk about the Fed.  Still no replies (they got ~5 downloads though!).

People will "think really hard" about the economy all day long, and watch youtube videos until they pass out, and debate on here till our fingers hurt, but nobody wants to fucking learn anything.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10033544#10033544


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InvisibleShins
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Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: MEAMS!!! - why is Ron Paul lying to us? [Re: Taco Chef]
    #11889949 - 01/24/10 08:58 AM (14 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

novumorganum said:
thats not true, the states are not permitted to print their own currency; this was one of the biggest problems with the articles of confederation. There is no way one can honestly read section 10 clause 1 and claim that implies the constitution gives the federal gov the power to print money but prohibits the states from using it. that doesn't make sense.

Congress is granted the power to create currency--its in black and white in section 8, which i quoted above.

there may be valid economic or transparency arguments to make against the fed, but constitutionality is not one of them.





It clearly says "No State shall make anything but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts."

Congress is allowed "To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures."

Congress is allowed to make and regulate coin (metal
) money.  nowhere does it grant Congress power to pass along that power to a private bank which creates non-coin paper money. no where does it allow congress to force the states to use that money to pay debts, in fact, the constitution prohibits it.


Why allow congress the power to coin money then? If that money they coin was gold and silver coins it would make sense, otherwise, it could be used for the military etc.

If you consider "debts" to be longer term loan obligations, and not just any amount owed at any time, federal paper money could be used for immediate exchange of goods or services, gold and silver for your loan obligations etc.


I really think that when they said "coin money" they were talking about metal coins though.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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Invisiblememes
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Re: MEAMS!!! - why is Ron Paul lying to us? [Re: Shins]
    #11889959 - 01/24/10 09:01 AM (14 years, 25 days ago)

i'm sure it was simply the common terminology of the day referring to monetary items


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OfflineGroovy Grant
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Re: MEAMS!!! - why is Ron Paul lying to us? [Re: memes]
    #11889996 - 01/24/10 09:14 AM (14 years, 25 days ago)

How did this thread turn to this? Reading through the post, as points are brought up as fact and later shown to be wrong, the points are starting to become ridiculous...


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InvisibleShins
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Re: MEAMS!!! - why is Ron Paul lying to us? [Re: ArmFromTheAbyss]
    #11890001 - 01/24/10 09:15 AM (14 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

ArmFromTheAbyss said:
Quote:

meams said:
The Fed sets the Federal Funds rate.  It does not determine the interst rates of every loan made to anyone in the US.  It changes the rate banks charge to loan funds to EACH OTHER, typically for very short periods of time (overnight) in order to meet their daily liquidity requirements.





YES! Everyone who thinks the Fed has absolute power should read and understand this point. I seriously doubt that Ron Paul gets it. All I ever hear is "the Fed is printing too much money," and "they kept interest rates too low." These statements are great for youtube but they have nothing to do with the actual way money works. It's all about people's expectations, the Fed wants people to think they can flip a switch and change everything. They only have power if people believe they do.





Are you trying to say that when "It changes the rate banks charge to loan funds to EACH OTHER, typically for very short periods of time (overnight) in order to meet their daily liquidity requirements." it does not affect overall market at all or the rates banks charge?

**metaphor**

A pre-school teacher and during class hands out bags of candy to all the kids and they eat them and go crazy, is it the fault of the kids or the teacher?

fed = teacher
banks = kids

The fed gets to decide the sugar content in the candy. 

In this manner they do have an all encompassing power to regulate over US money and credit, which should be up to congress, or better yet the free market to decide.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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OfflineGroovy Grant
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Re: MEAMS!!! - why is Ron Paul lying to us? [Re: Shins]
    #11890025 - 01/24/10 09:19 AM (14 years, 25 days ago)

It is up to Congress, as they were created by Congress and are under the supervision of Congress.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: MEAMS!!! - why is Ron Paul lying to us? [Re: memes]
    #11890051 - 01/24/10 09:26 AM (14 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

meams said:
i'm sure it was simply the common terminology of the day referring to monetary items




Actually, paper money was known about back then, and even commonly used in america before the constitution was written.

Novum even linked a couple articles a few pages back

http://www.philadelphiafed.org/education/teachers/resources/ben-franklin-and-paper-money-economy.pdf

Any definition for the word "coin" i can find refers at least to something metal, usually disc shaped.


--------------------
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InvisibleShins
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Re: MEAMS!!! - why is Ron Paul lying to us? [Re: Groovy Grant]
    #11890090 - 01/24/10 09:36 AM (14 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Groovy Grant said:
It is up to Congress, as they were created by Congress and are under the supervision of Congress.




Yet they aren't congress, they're a private bank with private shareholders.  How is congress supposed to supervise if the federal reserve refuses to open their books?

I don't think you can logically say that they "are under the supervision of Congress" in fact, the fed explicitly argues how important it is that congress does not supervise it.

Also as i understand,  most of congress was away on Christmas holidays when they snuck through the federal reserve act.

It was unconstitutional anyways, congress is to regulate the money, It is not obliged to hand away that power without properly amending the constitution.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


Edited by Shins (01/24/10 09:40 AM)


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Invisiblememes
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Re: MEAMS!!! - why is Ron Paul lying to us? [Re: Groovy Grant]
    #11890132 - 01/24/10 09:44 AM (14 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Any definition for the word "coin" i can find refers at least to something metal, usually disc shaped.



Well then, I wonder why that legislative body tasked with generating laws according to the constituion thinks about it.  Or maybe that court system that's been given the task of ensuring new legislation is constitutional?
Quote:

Groovy Grant said:
It is up to Congress, as they were created by Congress and are under the supervision of Congress.




And your metaphore was terrible.  I couldn't figure it out.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: MEAMS!!! - why is Ron Paul lying to us? [Re: memes]
    #11890272 - 01/24/10 10:14 AM (14 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

meams said:
i'm sure it was simply the common terminology of the day referring to monetary items



Quote:

meams said:
Well then, I wonder why that legislative body tasked with generating laws according to the constituion thinks about it.  Or maybe that court system that's been given the task of ensuring new legislation is constitutional?

And your metaphore was terrible.  I couldn't figure it out.





You are assuming that the legislative and judicial systems are A. always perfect B. completely loyal to the constitution and are without influence of agendas.  Would you argue then (off topic) that the federal government has never done anything unconstitutional or wrongfully imprisoned someone?


In my metaphor i was trying display cause and effect. 

teacher (fed) hands out the candy (credit) to the kids (banks) and decides the sugar content (key interest rates)

lower key interest rates = more sugar in the candy

the kids eat high sugar candy, get a sugar high and misbehave (ease lending, malinvest, speculate)

or if there is less sugar, they are more well behaved. (Tightend credit, higher interest, encouraged savings)


Thus i would argue that the cause of the misbehavior (speculation, malinvestment) is due to the amount of sugar put in the candy,  you can't blame the kids for eating candy, that's just what banks and their debtors do when you give it to them.


sure banks don't have to lend money, (kids dont have to east candy)  but then why be a bank?  when those tasty interest rates are giving them more leverage and higher profit margins they usually will lend more easly.


Edited by Shins (01/24/10 11:14 AM)


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OfflineGrok
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Re: MEAMS!!! - why is Ron Paul lying to us? [Re: Shins]
    #11914539 - 01/27/10 08:36 PM (14 years, 22 days ago)

What I don't understand is what implication there is to spending all this time debating these points, though calling this any sort of debate gives it way too much credit. Obviously many of you have an incomplete understanding of the modern financial system, which is complex but also straightforward once you understand the players and how they operate.

It doesn't seem like anyone is here to increase their understanding of any of this, however, and I think you have to ask yourselves why you're so fixated on being right, even though this is largely an anonymous forum in the bum-fuck of the internet and any discussion here will have absolutely no impact on anything in the non-binary world.

If you really think the Fed is evil, put your money where your mouth is and bet against it. Then, preferably, shut the fuck up until you get a fat payout and then you can brag about how you were right when everyone else was wrong.


--------------------
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Invisiblememes
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Re: MEAMS!!! - why is Ron Paul lying to us? [Re: Grok]
    #11914652 - 01/27/10 08:52 PM (14 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Grok said:
If you really think the Fed is evil, put your money where your mouth is and bet against it. Then, preferably, shut the fuck up until you get a fat payout and then you can brag about how you were right when everyone else was wrong.



Wiccan did that, and made a thread talking about the $$$$$ he made when he sold some of his gold position.

Can't argue with results :shrug:


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OfflineYOURMYBOYBLUE
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Re: MEAMS!!! - why is Ron Paul lying to us? [Re: memes]
    #11957351 - 02/03/10 08:04 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

People should read his books. I had the pleasure of hearing him speak!


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Invisibledr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
. [Re: YOURMYBOYBLUE]
    #11957386 - 02/03/10 08:10 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

.


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Invisiblememes
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Re: MEAMS!!! - why is Ron Paul lying to us? [Re: dr_gonz]
    #11958091 - 02/03/10 09:53 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

^ :rofl:  :highfive:


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