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InvisibleSubGen1us

Registered: 11/26/02
Posts: 3,427
Why cold shock? Useless???
    #1195594 - 01/06/03 04:42 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Wouldnt puting the cake or casing in the OPTIMUM fruiting temp be just as good as cold shocking. its not like u have to trick the thing with the cold shock. its still gunna know when its at its best temp. wouldnt this just be a useless step? i cant find any actual data that cold shock helps. maybe someone can let me in on this info..


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Edited by SubGen1us (01/06/03 05:34 PM)

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OfflineMister Black
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Registered: 11/18/02
Posts: 362
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Re: Why cold shock? [Re: SubGen1us]
    #1195677 - 01/06/03 05:11 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I don't have any actual 'data' to support this, but I thought that the cold shock was an artificial simulation of the first frost of fall, after which mushies start their outdoor fruiting. Kind of a natural trigger to initiate pinning.

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InvisibleSubGen1us

Registered: 11/26/02
Posts: 3,427
Re: Why cold shock? [Re: Mister Black]
    #1195686 - 01/06/03 05:15 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

wouldnt frost be freezing temp?? just a contradictory thought.
i dont know when they actually grow in the wild maybe thats where the info is.
im gunna check it out any mroe info would be apreteated.


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Edited by SubGen1us (01/06/03 05:16 PM)

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InvisibleSubGen1us

Registered: 11/26/02
Posts: 3,427
Re: Why cold shock? [Re: Mister Black]
    #1195699 - 01/06/03 05:22 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

also isnt light wat initiats pinning. i also hear putting it at the right temp is another thing. but how does cold shock do anything?


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OfflineHamurabi
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Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 2,421
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Re: Why cold shock? [Re: SubGen1us]
    #1195920 - 01/06/03 06:52 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

cold shocking makes your cakes/casings pin faster

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InvisibleG a n j a
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Re: Why cold shock? [Re: SubGen1us]
    #1195940 - 01/06/03 07:01 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Cold shocking makes a bit of sense as althought you dont let it reach freezing,you trick the mycelium into thinking winter is coming by dropping the temps a bit.So
pushing it into fruiting before winter sets in.I would think the light does a simalar thing i.e when the mycelium reaches the surface in nature it could be a sign of
running out of substance to eat(hense reaching air)so will also bring on fruiting.

Most flowering/fruiting plants also have triggers to start fruiting in nature.
But for indoor cultivation you just need to use these triggers to control when you wont fruiting to happen.

My 2p


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OfflineSHR00M0L0GIST
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Re: Why cold shock? [Re: Hamurabi]
    #1195943 - 01/06/03 07:02 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

cold shocking is not a necessary process and in my experience makes no difference. Though others have reported that it works good if your cakes don't pin by themselves.

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Invisibledaussaulit
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Re: Why cold shock? Useless??? [Re: SubGen1us]
    #1195991 - 01/06/03 07:21 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I usually cold shock when I dunk. I'd like to think that it helps keep my contaminations down. Anyway I'm not going to do anything else to my cake while it's dunking, and it's certainly not hurting it, why not cold shock?

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InvisibleSubGen1us

Registered: 11/26/02
Posts: 3,427
Re: Why cold shock? [Re: SHR00M0L0GIST]
    #1196163 - 01/06/03 08:39 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I tend to think the same way shroomologist says,

to: d2aussulite ganja- u are right there, but like u said drop the temp a little so it knows. putting it in the fridge is just slowing it to an unatural state, of course it doesnt hurt it but its kind of extreme and adding an extra, non needed step.
Just the drop in temp (86 to 74) from an incubator to a fruiting chamber is plenty with addition to light and "air replacement". i believe that all u people cold shocking are doing it for no reason other that someone wrote a tek on it. Does it really help if not pinning naturally or is it impatient step made for those who cant wait and make them feel relieved that in theyre mind it helped? or even done with those who dont have an incubator and colonize theyre jars at 80 or so degrees.

If u can prove any additional information that it helps i would be happy for ur links and info. Thanx





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Edited by SubGen1us (01/06/03 08:43 PM)

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InvisibleSubGen1us

Registered: 11/26/02
Posts: 3,427
Re: Why cold shock? [Re: SubGen1us]
    #1196178 - 01/06/03 08:43 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

oh yeah and to ganja, in reply to ur nature trigger stuff.
Yah i know about that but from all the experience of people that have proven with graphs what the best pinning temp is. We know what temp it happens so wouldnt u think now that it is an out dated tek?


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InvisibleG a n j a
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Re: Why cold shock? [Re: SubGen1us]
    #1196205 - 01/06/03 09:01 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Your probably right there,also another point is that
as most of the cubesis we all grow come from
mexico or tailand/asia then the temp should rarely
if ever reach that of the inside of a fridge lol.So
maybe its only realy worth while for cakes or casings
that dont seem to pin after say 3 weeks or for azures ext.

I have cold shocked one out of 4 cakes im now growing
but cant really compare to the others as i birthed it earlyer.
The noncold shocked seem to be doing fine though.


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InvisibleG a n j a
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Re: Why cold shock? [Re: SubGen1us]
    #1196390 - 01/06/03 10:58 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I was just walking the dog thinking about this and i think
you hit the nail on the head when you said you inncubate
at 86?f and fruit at 74?f.ive been incubating at 80?f and fruiting at 75?f
and would imagine that most people are in between some were.
So 86 to 74 is a 12 degree sudden change which could its self
be called a shock(though not a cold one but in the same direction)
were as mine only get a 5 degree change.
Next time ill try your temps :smile: though i may inncubate at 82?f/83?f
as i had good results with 80?f.
i have already dropped the recently started fruiting chamber to 74?f
Cheers :smile:


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Edited by G a n j a (01/06/03 10:59 PM)

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Invisibleralphster44
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Re: Why cold shock? [Re: SHR00M0L0GIST]
    #1196966 - 01/07/03 06:01 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by administrator.


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OfflineHamurabi
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Registered: 03/31/02
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Re: Why cold shock? [Re: SHR00M0L0GIST]
    #1197445 - 01/07/03 09:32 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

i have to disagree with shroomologist! i made a test a few weeks ago! i birthed 3 cakes and cold shocked other 3. a few days later the cold shocked cakes were pinning while the others pinned 4-5 days later

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OfflineSHR00M0L0GIST
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Re: Why cold shock? [Re: Hamurabi]
    #1197650 - 01/07/03 10:52 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Hamurabi, I guess you disagree with Ralphster as well. I think he knows what hes talking about. I'm not saying that cold shocking doesn't help in some situations. I'm just saying that its not a natural part of the growth cycle and isn't necessary to initiate pinning any faster. Light alone should trigger pinning if you use grow bulbs that are high in blue light compared to regular bulbs or flourescent.

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InvisibleSubGen1us

Registered: 11/26/02
Posts: 3,427
Re: Why cold shock? [Re: ralphster44]
    #1197683 - 01/07/03 10:59 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Im glad u guys are around to help. when i first started i seriosuly thought that it would be a good tek, cause im a newb. But now that im starting to get more into it i kind of thought it would be an outdated tek. glad u guys are here to help me get good in depth answers. The reason i came up with it being over kill is because when i breed my fish i have to do the same thing with mushrooms almost.. The fish i have breed at the rainy season. so basically they are used the the warmer african temps. but guess what. It rains. basically the rain is cooler temp witch lowers the temp in the rivers and such. basically i remove water in my tank 40% and add fresh cooler water to trigger it. Im not popping em in the fridge for a day =P


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Anonymous

Re: Why cold shock? Useless??? [Re: SubGen1us]
    #1197809 - 01/07/03 11:35 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Whatever stimuli you can introduce to the mycelium that slows the growth rate will initiate fruiting.

Lowered temps
Oxygen introduction
Light introduction

Cold shocking cakes prior to birth seems easily done. Cold shocking a Casing post casing colinization will be a bit more difficult. Will increase your chances of contamination, and take alot of space.

If you can easily cold shock, go for it. If it seems like an inconvinience don't, it is NOT NECCESSARY.

As long as the temps don't damge the mycelial colony, then it CAN"T hurt. Nutrient deprivation is the ultimate stimuli to fruiting. Low temps guarentee that the growth rate SLOWS, and it is the STORED nutrients within the Mycelium, and those already in solution that feed the developing pins. The mycelium stops feeding to fruit. Then it feeds again before fruiting again. It continues to do this until it succombs to contamination, or it USES up all available nutrients from the substrate, or some KILL factor is introduced(freeze, Burn, Poison, etc...)

You can grow a cubensis at a constant temp from spore to spore. It will just take longer to do so.

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Anonymous

Re: Why cold shock? [Re: Hamurabi]
    #1197825 - 01/07/03 11:40 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

One question I have about Cold shocking.

I realize it speeds up the time to pin set. Does it also slow down the time it takes between flushes?

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InvisibleSubGen1us

Registered: 11/26/02
Posts: 3,427
Re: Why cold shock? [Re: ]
    #1197860 - 01/07/03 11:52 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

i still dont see how it speeds it up. u stoping it for 24-48 hours from the Nutrient deprivation u said erlier. if u drop ur temp to 74 fro 86 the myclium knows from that and continues the whole time. instead of stoping it for a day to 2. so ur tek is 2 days slower.


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Why cold shock? [Re: ]
    #1197886 - 01/07/03 12:04 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

it doesn't really 'speed' it up, in my experience. it can sometimes though be useful in prodding a stubborn cake that refuses to pin by normal means into going ahead, esp. if combined with a dunk. that's really the best way to dunk anyway, in the fridge, so you get a free cold shock along the way, a few hours at 40 degrees won't hurt them, might help, so why not when you dunk ? other than with dunking though i'd skip a cold shock.


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InvisibleSubGen1us

Registered: 11/26/02
Posts: 3,427
Re: Why cold shock? [Re: Hippie3]
    #1197940 - 01/07/03 12:20 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

so its just a tek for stubborn cakes. i realize the dunk tek is used with the cold shock but isnt that for after the 1st flush? or rehydrating a dryed out cake.

basically wat im say is if u have the right conditions witch dont cause it to dry out or be stubborn.

if u follow ur teks correctly and use right temps and everything correct would u really end up with a stubborn cake?


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Anonymous

Re: Why cold shock? [Re: SubGen1us]
    #1198021 - 01/07/03 12:44 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Cubensis eats substrate best at 86 F. The further you drop the temperature from that temp, without passing a critical temp that kills, the faster you stop it from EATING. When the mycelium stops eating and is exposed to light, oxygen it begins to pin.

Going from 86 to 75 may not be significant enough to immediately trigger fruiting. The mycelium may continue to feed until the OTHER stimuli trigger fruiting. So cold shocking may speed up fruiting, as several members here have stated.

My concern with it would be an extension of the lag time between frutings due to the GREATLY decreased temperature exposure initially, and then the maintainance at lower temps then optimum for growth rate. It seems to me it would be better to only slightly lower temps, and combine it with the OTHER stimuli to get fruits. It may take longer to get the first flush, but it MAY ALSO take less time to get the second, third, fourth, etc....

I never cold shock cubensis, NEVER needed to. Just trying to see the benefits and ways them against any pitfalls.

I don't grow cakes either.

Definetly can see it being beneficial for STUBBORN CAKES or CASINGS that refuse to Stop vegetating regardless of exposure to the other STIMULI. The Mycelium has to STOP growing to fruit.

Dropping temps 10 degrees is not the same as dropping it 40 degrees. The former just slows down the growth. The latter can STOP IT. Once the mycelium stops growing it starts the pinning process, after a short lag to GET READY. COLD SHOCK could make this happen faster. If it does, like wise it can make the in between flush period, LONGER. Temps beneficial to fruiting are Lower then temps beneficial to growing(eating). The mycelium gathers nutrients in FEEDING mode, stores them, and uses them to develope the first and second flush. Then it has to feed some more to make more pins and develope them. This is why I think Cold shocking might speed up pin sety, but slow down the time in between flushes.

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OfflineOn_the_Down-Low
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Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: Why cold shock? [Re: Hamurabi]
    #1198962 - 01/07/03 06:34 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

"i have to disagree with shroomologist! i made a test a few weeks ago! i birthed 3 cakes and cold shocked other 3. a few days later the cold shocked cakes were pinning"

Did you also dunk, or did you just cold shock them??

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InvisibleSubGen1us

Registered: 11/26/02
Posts: 3,427
Re: Why cold shock? [Re: On_the_Down-Low]
    #1198967 - 01/07/03 06:39 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Well lets see it. wat where the temps expain the process so we know.


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Edited by SubGen1us (01/07/03 06:44 PM)

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InvisibleG a n j a
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Re: Why cold shock? [Re: ]
    #1199012 - 01/07/03 07:16 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Cool thats a fair bit of info Teonan.Pretty much what i
was thinking but explained a lot better :smile:

So in future ill save it for those real stubborn cakes
that stall.As i dont dunk i shall avoid that step.

subgenius do you keep killi fish?

Another thing though is you say teonan that mycelium
is most dynamic at 86?f is this the temp you incubate at?
as ive been incubating at 80?f.

Definatly feel more intune with the temps now
Thanks for this tread Sub :smile:


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InvisibleSubGen1us

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Posts: 3,427
Re: Why cold shock? [Re: G a n j a]
    #1199048 - 01/07/03 07:38 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

right now i just got a pair of jack dempseys that im breeding till i getr my new place. Ganja there have been tests done that show wat the best times are. ill find em tomarrow when im not fuct up. i know 86 is best incubation time and 74 is best fruiting(for cubes). temp is a critical issue for simulating the perfect enviroment.
i got to go peace.


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OfflineHamurabi
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Registered: 03/31/02
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Re: Why cold shock? [Re: On_the_Down-Low]
    #1199099 - 01/07/03 08:06 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

i did not dunk! i just cold shocked as i said :smile:

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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Why cold shock? [Re: ]
    #1199270 - 01/07/03 11:41 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

i think i'd tend to agree with teonan's assesment, it fits all the available evidence that i've seen over the years.
and yes, there really are stubborn cakes that refuse to fruit via normal methods within a reasonable time. fortunately they are fairly uncommon in most strains.


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Offlineshirley knott
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Re: Why cold shock? [Re: Hippie3]
    #1199422 - 01/08/03 02:28 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Teonan definitely knows his stuff. I've read lots of his posts and always been impressed.

Take his advice, and stick to the optimum temps along with other fruiting triggers.


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