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OfflineEgo Questio
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Re: Obama wants Nuclear Power?!?! [Re: xdzt]
    #11954650 - 02/03/10 02:14 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

xdzt said:
The US would love to "pull fusion out of the bag", anyone would. If -- and I stress if -- practical fusion power is achievable, it's going to be a long, difficult, and expensive road to get there.

But in the meantime, fission is awesome. :atom: :thumbup:




:lol: granted, I don't expect them to set up a quango and a fortnight later, lo and behold, we've got a flipboard presentation on feasible fusion!
I'm just surprised they didn't set up a funded government body, NASA stylee, oh I dunno, in the bloody 50's! Once they had the H-bomb and recognised fusion reactions were attainable on Earth (granted, with a fecking fission compression on that one :facepalm::rolleyes:), I guess it's just the next logical step to create a large agency to devlop the technology-hell, with MiT and some of the technic universities working on it for the last 60 years, with NASA level funding...

Then factor in development costs compared with royalties from the infinite applications (right up to bailing NASA out of a lot of logistical problems!)

Stupid governments. :sad:


--------------------
Over one's mind and over one's body the individual is sovereign.
John Stuart Mill, On Liberty
(1806 - 1873)
My UPDATED UK supplies thread
My first trip report-Amsterdam wanderings
Stonesun's sclerotia infodump
Proudly discovered Highly Sensitive Person ~2009
To all you good gents, I say :hatsoff:

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Obama wants Nuclear Power?!?! [Re: Ego Questio]
    #11954727 - 02/03/10 02:24 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

It isn't the governemt being stupid.  It's the voters.


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Offlinedill705
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Re: Obama wants Nuclear Power?!?! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11954743 - 02/03/10 02:26 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I vote yes! :awesome:


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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OfflineEgo Questio
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Re: Obama wants Nuclear Power?!?! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11954808 - 02/03/10 02:34 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
It isn't the governemt being stupid.  It's the voters.




But voters don't really have any say in policy. It's not like you could start an independent petition and present a bill to congress to be voted on as a citizen, could you? Best you can do is lobby a congressman, and if they're influenced by a partisan party line that's being propped up by campaign dollars from a company that disapproves...

I can't blame the citizenry, who have no real control on this level. But 60 years of successive governments who knew about the potential of this technology and did precisely dick....
:kingcrankey:


--------------------
Over one's mind and over one's body the individual is sovereign.
John Stuart Mill, On Liberty
(1806 - 1873)
My UPDATED UK supplies thread
My first trip report-Amsterdam wanderings
Stonesun's sclerotia infodump
Proudly discovered Highly Sensitive Person ~2009
To all you good gents, I say :hatsoff:

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Obama wants Nuclear Power?!?! [Re: Ego Questio]
    #11954877 - 02/03/10 02:41 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ego Questio said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
It isn't the governemt being stupid.  It's the voters.




But voters don't really have any say in policy.






Sorry, I disagree.  They are 100% to blame.


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OfflineEgo Questio
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Re: Obama wants Nuclear Power?!?! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11954907 - 02/03/10 02:44 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Sorry, I disagree.  They are 100% to blame.




Why? Their only power is to vote in one of a two-party system, neither of which, once they're in, pay much heed to what the voters want, until election rolls around and the smoochy campaigning begins.

Where's the power/fault?


--------------------
Over one's mind and over one's body the individual is sovereign.
John Stuart Mill, On Liberty
(1806 - 1873)
My UPDATED UK supplies thread
My first trip report-Amsterdam wanderings
Stonesun's sclerotia infodump
Proudly discovered Highly Sensitive Person ~2009
To all you good gents, I say :hatsoff:

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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: Obama wants Nuclear Power?!?! [Re: Ego Questio]
    #11954941 - 02/03/10 02:47 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Nuclear fusion sounds promising, but it's been 'around the bend' for decades.  In the seventies, they were saying it would be here in 30 years... now, thirty years later... well, it should be here in just 50 more years.  Is it any wonder the government is not spearheading it?  Nobody even knows if it's feasible.  Scientists have and will continue to hit major setbacks in engineering like never encountered before.  I think fusion research has been getting the funding it deserves.  The French, US, Koreans and others agreed to spend some $12 billion on building a research reactor, ITER back in 2005.  We'll see what comes out of that, but I wouldn't hold my breath.  Even after the reaction is sustainable, there's the issue of what utility, in their right mind, will buy into building a fusion reactor, which will likely be many factors more expensive than any fission reactor ever built and will undoubtedly run into operational issues, being the first-of-its-kind energy source.

Right now, though, nuclear fission is feasible, economical, and proven and, with reprocessing of waste, can provide us with safe, clean energy for thousands of years.  I'd bank my money on that for now and continue with the kind of funding that fusion has always received.


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No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Obama wants Nuclear Power?!?! [Re: Ego Questio]
    #11955007 - 02/03/10 02:55 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ego Questio said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Sorry, I disagree.  They are 100% to blame.




Why? Their only power is to vote in one of a two-party system, neither of which, once they're in, pay much heed to what the voters want, until election rolls around and the smoochy campaigning begins.

Where's the power/fault?



The power is in the vote.  They let it happen.


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OfflineEgo Questio
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Re: Obama wants Nuclear Power?!?! [Re: pothead_bob]
    #11955048 - 02/03/10 03:00 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

pothead_bob said:
Nuclear fusion sounds promising, but it's been 'around the bend' for decades.  In the seventies, they were saying it would be here in 30 years... now, thirty years later... well, it should be here in just 50 more years.  Is it any wonder the government is not spearheading it?  Nobody even knows if it's feasible.  Scientists have and will continue to hit major setbacks in engineering like never encountered before.  I think fusion research has been getting the funding it deserves.  The French, US, Koreans and others agreed to spend some $12 billion on building a research reactor, ITER back in 2005.  We'll see what comes out of that, but I wouldn't hold my breath.  Even after the reaction is sustainable, there's the issue of what utility, in their right mind, will buy into building a fusion reactor, which will likely be many factors more expensive than any fission reactor ever built and will undoubtedly run into operational issues, being the first-of-its-kind energy source.

Right now, though, nuclear fission is feasible, economical, and proven and, with reprocessing of waste, can provide us with safe, clean energy for thousands of years.  I'd bank my money on that for now and continue with the kind of funding that fusion has always received.




Granted, the ridiculousness of the projections, but I think it's been because of the lack of funding that fusion has been such a unicorn, not the other way around. Studies all over the world have been edging closer to sustainable fusion for decades on pittance research funding-I'm talking about a fully-fledged government initiative back in the day, with full state funding, purely on developing sustainable reactions-imagine where we'd be now...

ITER is the reactor I was talking about, yes, but look at that-$12billion. It's pittance, on international monetary scales! Yet they're forging ahead, and more power to them.

You also raise a good point that any prototype is going to be fraught with setbacks and inefficiencies, but it's exactly that-a prototype, built for that reason. If they even manage to break even with the energy in the reaction, that's enough. You spread the word "This is what worked, this is what we totally screwed the pooch on and how to fix it, there, go build your own Mark IIs that are productive.

Any prototype is expensive to contruct, but then you have a decided mark-down on any future production. Secondly, typically with fusion power, it is an expensive process to set up such a facility, but look at the business model-expensive set up, but then ridiculously low operational costs, and a constant stream of an uninterrupted valuable commodity that will never go out of demand and where the major waste substance (helium) is so useful, we have massive polluting industries set up just to manufacture that!

All it takes is a little long-term vision. Even economically, you'd be making money on your deal within 1 decade or two-infinately quicker if you had a stake in the technology itself, rather than just a slice of a particular station.

Unfortunately, long term vision has been slightly lacking around here, of late... :sad:


--------------------
Over one's mind and over one's body the individual is sovereign.
John Stuart Mill, On Liberty
(1806 - 1873)
My UPDATED UK supplies thread
My first trip report-Amsterdam wanderings
Stonesun's sclerotia infodump
Proudly discovered Highly Sensitive Person ~2009
To all you good gents, I say :hatsoff:

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OfflineEgo Questio
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Re: Obama wants Nuclear Power?!?! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11955073 - 02/03/10 03:03 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The power is in the vote.  They let it happen.




:confused:

How is that logical? Their power consists of two options-Republican or Democrat. And neither of those options gives them any more say in how the country is run, policies passed, funding directed, nothing. They just get to pat one of a few candidates on the head in absolution, and off they toddle to toe a party line entirely removed from the people they are "representing".

A choice forced between two options, neither of which is different from the other in your utter impotence after the fact is no power at all. They didn't let anything happen-barring countrywide revolution, how could anyone have made anything happen any other way?


--------------------
Over one's mind and over one's body the individual is sovereign.
John Stuart Mill, On Liberty
(1806 - 1873)
My UPDATED UK supplies thread
My first trip report-Amsterdam wanderings
Stonesun's sclerotia infodump
Proudly discovered Highly Sensitive Person ~2009
To all you good gents, I say :hatsoff:

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Obama wants Nuclear Power?!?! [Re: Ego Questio]
    #11955271 - 02/03/10 03:26 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

No.  They let that option happen.  And they seem to be taking some of it back by reshaping the Republican Party back into fiscal conseravitism.  Looking good so far.


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OfflineEgo Questio
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Re: Obama wants Nuclear Power?!?! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11955288 - 02/03/10 03:28 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
No.  They let that option happen.  And they seem to be taking some of it back by reshaping the Republican Party back into fiscal conseravitism.  Looking good so far.




OK...you take over here. You say they let that happen-you tell me how it could have gone down any other way, how people could have changed it..?


--------------------
Over one's mind and over one's body the individual is sovereign.
John Stuart Mill, On Liberty
(1806 - 1873)
My UPDATED UK supplies thread
My first trip report-Amsterdam wanderings
Stonesun's sclerotia infodump
Proudly discovered Highly Sensitive Person ~2009
To all you good gents, I say :hatsoff:

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Obama wants Nuclear Power?!?! [Re: Ego Questio]
    #11955442 - 02/03/10 03:47 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

By voting for different parties.  Did you know they already got rid of one?  They were called the Whigs.  Gone.  Aside from that, the people can shape each party.  In spite of what the disaffected youth say, they are not identical.  Not by a long shot.


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OfflineEgo Questio
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Re: Obama wants Nuclear Power?!?! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11955482 - 02/03/10 03:52 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
By voting for different parties.  Did you know they already got rid of one?  They were called the Whigs.  Gone.  Aside from that, the people can shape each party.  In spite of what the disaffected youth say, they are not identical.  Not by a long shot.




Ok...but how can the vast majority of poor, uneducated, zero-prospect people shape any political party? They have no prospects of being voted in to do it from the inside of the system, and they have no power out of it.
So what do they do?

And maybe the youth are disaffected because they see things differently from you? You say the youth are plain wrong in that belief, but why would the vast majority of the young today say this unless they felt that way? The young are idealists at heart, yet see election after election herald in an effectively clone-party, more concerned with the stable stasis of the system "because it works" than any real drive for improvement of any kind, for that would mean change, and we fear change, we who are at the top of what we see as a very shaky pyramid of power...


--------------------
Over one's mind and over one's body the individual is sovereign.
John Stuart Mill, On Liberty
(1806 - 1873)
My UPDATED UK supplies thread
My first trip report-Amsterdam wanderings
Stonesun's sclerotia infodump
Proudly discovered Highly Sensitive Person ~2009
To all you good gents, I say :hatsoff:

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Obama wants Nuclear Power?!?! [Re: Ego Questio]
    #11955599 - 02/03/10 04:07 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ego Questio said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
By voting for different parties.  Did you know they already got rid of one?  They were called the Whigs.  Gone.  Aside from that, the people can shape each party.  In spite of what the disaffected youth say, they are not identical.  Not by a long shot.




Ok...but how can the vast majority of poor, uneducated, zero-prospect people shape any political party? They have no prospects of being voted in to do it from the inside of the system, and they have no power out of it.
So what do they do?




What?  Poor, uneducated, zero prospect people are exactly what have brought us this asshole President and asshole Speaker.  THEY are the ones who have brought us here.  The idiots.
Quote:

 

And maybe the youth are disaffected because they see things differently from you? You say the youth are plain wrong in that belief, but why would the vast majority of the young today say this unless they felt that way? The young are idealists at heart, yet see election after election herald in an effectively clone-party, more concerned with the stable stasis of the system "because it works" than any real drive for improvement of any kind, for that would mean change, and we fear change, we who are at the top of what we see as a very shaky pyramid of power...




I was young once, too, ya know.  The young do too much feeling and not enough thinking.  And the parties aren't clones.  Consider this.  Mandatory health insurance is a horror for young people.  Social security is a horror for young people.  One party would increase both, the other party would decrease both.  What party do young people support?  The one that wants to fuck them.  But that's OK, they have the right to be stupid.  Here we can actually apply Franklin's quote about essential liberty (the freeedom to take risk and decide for yourself) and temporary security (the illusion that there'll be any money left when it's their turn to collect).


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OfflineEgo Questio
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Re: Obama wants Nuclear Power?!?! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11955720 - 02/03/10 04:26 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
What?  Poor, uneducated, zero prospect people are exactly what have brought us this asshole President and asshole Speaker.  THEY are the ones who have brought us here.  The idiots.




Y'see, from an outside perspective, I'd have said it was the eight years of Bush on the throne that got you where you are today-in every way. You can hardly blame the "poor, uneducated, zero prospect" people for putting Obama in the White House when it was pretty much them who elected Bush two terms running too!
People stuck in such a rut, who have so little education they're not really learned to think for themselves, as such, are as impressionable as a blob of hot wax. I know you have issues over the negative campaigning run in your country, and damned rightly so, but it is these people who it hits, and where it sticks-they simply do what they're told-by the parties themselves.

Hence the horrible, cyclical cycle continues.

I would argue that yes, such people can drain a society and economy in the state that they perpetuate in, so something has to be done to alter that state!They have not the means to do this themselves, so it must be done for them-and, as far as I can see, that comes down to massive funding in education and social policies that will help the children of such people elevate themselves out from the illiterati rut they were born into, and actually make them into people whose vote actually counts for something, under the ideal of democracy.

But I think you object to such government interference on ideological grounds, right?

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I was young once, too, ya know.  The young do too much feeling and not enough thinking.  And the parties aren't clones.  Consider this.  Mandatory health insurance is a horror for young people.  Social security is a horror for young people.  One party would increase both, the other party would decrease both.  What party do young people support?  The one that wants to fuck them.  But that's OK, they have the right to be stupid.  Here we can actually apply Franklin's quote about essential liberty (the freeedom to take risk and decide for yourself) and temporary security (the illusion that there'll be any money left when it's their turn to collect).




I see your point in that example, but I would argue that the example is flawed. I would say:

Health insurance is a horror for young people"> who have no problems currently getting medical insurance or those fortunate enough not to have had so severe an illness or injury to experience what a black hole medical care can cost under a PIP system.

And

Social security is a horror for young people who have no need, or know no-one who has a need to draw upon it-for them it is a draining waste of no import. But for the young people who do need such support, or who live in families propped up by such support, it is pretty much their only lifeline above the poverty line and into solvency.


--------------------
Over one's mind and over one's body the individual is sovereign.
John Stuart Mill, On Liberty
(1806 - 1873)
My UPDATED UK supplies thread
My first trip report-Amsterdam wanderings
Stonesun's sclerotia infodump
Proudly discovered Highly Sensitive Person ~2009
To all you good gents, I say :hatsoff:

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Obama wants Nuclear Power?!?! [Re: Ego Questio]
    #11955888 - 02/03/10 04:50 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ego Questio said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
What?  Poor, uneducated, zero prospect people are exactly what have brought us this asshole President and asshole Speaker.  THEY are the ones who have brought us here.  The idiots.




Y'see, from an outside perspective, I'd have said it was the eight years of Bush on the throne that got you where you are today-in every way. You can hardly blame the "poor, uneducated, zero prospect" people for putting Obama in the White House when it was pretty much them who elected Bush two terms running too!
People stuck in such a rut, who have so little education they're not really learned to think for themselves, as such, are as impressionable as a blob of hot wax. I know you have issues over the negative campaigning run in your country, and damned rightly so, but it is these people who it hits, and where it sticks-they simply do what they're told-by the parties themselves.

Hence the horrible, cyclical cycle continues.

I would argue that yes, such people can drain a society and economy in the state that they perpetuate in, so something has to be done to alter that state!They have not the means to do this themselves, so it must be done for them-and, as far as I can see, that comes down to massive funding in education and social policies that will help the children of such people elevate themselves out from the illiterati rut they were born into, and actually make them into people whose vote actually counts for something, under the ideal of democracy.

But I think you object to such government interference on ideological grounds, right?




Yes.  I would much prefer that the effects of stupid people be limited to the stupid people as much as possible.  If government of and by stupid people is limited than they have a lesser chance of fucking the rest of us.
Quote:



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I was young once, too, ya know.  The young do too much feeling and not enough thinking.  And the parties aren't clones.  Consider this.  Mandatory health insurance is a horror for young people.  Social security is a horror for young people.  One party would increase both, the other party would decrease both.  What party do young people support?  The one that wants to fuck them.  But that's OK, they have the right to be stupid.  Here we can actually apply Franklin's quote about essential liberty (the freeedom to take risk and decide for yourself) and temporary security (the illusion that there'll be any money left when it's their turn to collect).




I see your point in that example, but I would argue that the example is flawed. I would say:

Health insurance is a horror for young people"> who have no problems currently getting medical insurance or those fortunate enough not to have had so severe an illness or injury to experience what a black hole medical care can cost under a PIP system.




Which is almost all of them.  It is a poor financial decision for a young person to pay for medical insurance.
Quote:



And

Social security is a horror for young people who have no need, or know no-one who has a need to draw upon it-for them it is a draining waste of no import. But for the young people who do need such support, or who live in families propped up by such support, it is pretty much their only lifeline above the poverty line and into solvency.




I don't think you understand soc sec.  As a retirement investment, which is 90+% of it, it shows hideous returns.  Young people getting support from soc sec?  That is hardly the problem.  Tiny poroportion better taken care of in other ways. Did you know that over 10% of the money you make is confiscated for soc sec?  Did you know that it will be beyond broke, i.e. no money in the kitty, when you go to look for it?  Do not for one second think that that (young people support) is what soc sec is about


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OfflineEgo Questio
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Re: Obama wants Nuclear Power?!?! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11956084 - 02/03/10 05:18 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Yes.  I would much prefer that the effects of stupid people be limited to the stupid people as much as possible.  If government of and by stupid people is limited than they have a lesser chance of fucking the rest of us.




You'll have to clarify that one for me buddy. I'm talking about pulling out some major social initiative to properly try to bring real education the poorest community, at least on a par to give them an even chance of attaining places at the top colleges.
You simply mention limiting the effects of stupid people to themselves as much as possible-do you mean not attempt to lift them up in society, but instead isolate them and the ill-informed damage they can inflict?

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Which is almost all of them.  It is a poor financial decision for a young person to pay for medical insurance.




How is that all of them? The way I understand your system, apart from free basic emergency care, any other medical treatment is charged, payable by insurance companies. Such premiums would be well out of the price range of the poverty-stricken teens. Oh, mommy and daddy suburbia can probably fund their middle class kids no problems, but what are the poor to do?
Go through life with no medical insurance until that one fateful day when they break their back, get basically stitched up, then presented with the $400,000 bill for physiotherapy and medical care to learn to walk again without constant agony?

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I don't think you understand soc sec.  As a retirement investment, which is 90+% of it, it shows hideous returns.  Young people getting support from soc sec?  That is hardly the problem.  Tiny poroportion better taken care of in other ways. Did you know that over 10% of the money you make is confiscated for soc sec?  Did you know that it will be beyond broke, i.e. no money in the kitty, when you go to look for it?  Do not for one second think that that (young people support) is what soc sec is about




I have to admit to total ignorance on your social security system. Yet you focus on the retirement aspect of it as an indictment of the entire system, when due to current economic factors as well as a massively bloating and ageing population, the pension pots of the world are in serious meltdown.
Bear in mind the current system of pension payments is bloody Victorian in scope, where people would retire and if they lived to claim 5 years worth of pension, they were considered lucky! Now, of course, you have hundreds of millions more people now, all retiring healthy(ish) and living for decades off pension plans designed for payments of a few years.

This model was collapsing mid last century, but the baby boomer generation provided a solution-link in directly to this flood of new taxes coming in, that'll solve it! So the old system continues to bloat and wheeze until we hit the 80's/90's and it's fit to burst. Then some genius says "Hey, we're in an eternal economic growth here, link the pensions to market speculation" so it bloats some more based on mythical money in the magic land of Finance...until now, and there's no more plugs for the tattered remnants of an antiquated pension system.

But social security as a term is distinct from this-yes, it may cover social pensions, but that's merely one facet of it's remit. Social programmes cover health, education, transport, community building, aid,  Jeez, everything that can help society in general out, really.You can't deride the whole system that was forced to integrate an outmoded, ridiculously last-legs pension system...


--------------------
Over one's mind and over one's body the individual is sovereign.
John Stuart Mill, On Liberty
(1806 - 1873)
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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: Obama wants Nuclear Power?!?! [Re: EdgeChaos]
    #11956307 - 02/03/10 05:41 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EdgeChaos said:
:rofl: At anyone who thinks nuclear power is bad.




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Make my Funk the P Funk, I wants to get Funked up

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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: Obama wants Nuclear Power?!?! [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #11956577 - 02/03/10 06:19 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

So Obama supports it but I'm wondering what he's gonna do about it. Loan guarentees would probably jump start the construction of new plants. Either way, I think the first build is coming soon. The NRC has been receiving combined build and operating licenses left and right and the vendors have been gearing up. Its a shame most of the American vendors have evaporated, or been bought out, but I guess the French and Japanese will be happy to fill the void.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.

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