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Offlineteesionbear
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Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold
    #11915068 - 01/27/10 09:57 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Just like the title says.

My friend has a trich problem. Some of his PF tek jars have had green mold in the jar during colonization. About half of the jars eventually colonize completely and he actually birthed and successfully fruited some cakes that previously had green mold. In fact some of his best yielding cakes ever had green mold during colonization.

He has gotten into he habit of circling (with a black lab glass pencil) the areas affected with green mold, and can say without a doubt that some jars have definitely covered some and in some cases all of the green mold.

He now has a jar that had a dime size spot of green mold which is now completely covered in white mycelium, he is wondering if he can take a piece of that mycelium that "ate" the green mold and grow it out on agar, then introduce green mold to a dish and see if it grows over it.

He also has an petri dish that had some green mold on one side. His mycelium eventually colonized everything around the green mold, and some mycelium covered about 3 mm of he edge of the green mold. He already took some of that mycelium and is attempting to grow it out on agar.


Basically does anyone have any experience with selecting for mycelium that defeats green mold? Is it even possible?

All of his PF cakes get green mold during the 2nd flush, so he figures if he can grow mycelium that is resistant to green mold, he will use that on cakes in order to be able to experience multiple flushes.

He will continue to use a high yielding isolate on trays and tubs because 2nd flushes are less of a concern with those.


I searched for similar topics but came up empty, I look forward to reading your opinions.


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Offlineganjababy
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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: teesionbear]
    #11915094 - 01/27/10 10:00 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I haven't heard of mycellium that colonizes green mold.
If all of his cakes go green on the second flush than he needs to sterilize his growing area and find the issue because that's not normal.

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Offlineteesionbear
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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: ganjababy]
    #11915289 - 01/27/10 10:32 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

The grow area was sterilized, with 5 clean cakes dunked for their second flush. When birthed, 2 immediately developed green mold...


I have seen with my own eyes that some of his cakes Cube mycelium definitely colonizes the green mold to the point where the casual observer would never have known there was green mold.

The jars that have a lot of green mold take a long time (like a month) to colonize the area with mold.

next time you have a pf jar with green mold, mark off the borders of the mold and set it aside for a while, you may be pleasantly surprised.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: teesionbear]
    #11917280 - 01/28/10 11:50 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

It sounds like you had some bruising.  When jars with green mold turn white, it's usually the trichoderma spores germinating.  The resulting conidial mycelium turns green very soon after.  Many new growers mistake the minerals in verm for green mold, but it isn't the case.
RR


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OfflineBrennus
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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: teesionbear]
    #11918176 - 01/28/10 02:25 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Trying to find a strain of P. Cubensis that can beat trich it like trying to find a human that can fight a tiger bare handed.

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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: Brennus]
    #11920876 - 01/28/10 09:26 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Brennus said:
Trying to find a strain of P. Cubensis that can beat trich it like trying to find a human that can fight a tiger bare handed.





LOL thanks for the laugh!

Quote:

RogerRabbit
It sounds like you had some bruising.  When jars with green mold turn white, it's usually the trichoderma spores germinating.  The resulting conidial mycelium turns green very soon after.  Many new growers mistake the minerals in verm for green mold, but it isn't the case.
RR





Hmmm, that could be true for the jars, but how do you explain the petri dish?

It was inoculated on one end, and the opposite end developed a small green blob that grew to about 1/5 the dish. The cube mycelium colonized the rest of the dish, and is now overlapping the green. i will have my friend take a picture and post it tomorrow for your review.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: teesionbear]
    #11920914 - 01/28/10 09:33 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

It was inoculated on one end, and the opposite end developed a small green blob that grew to about 1/5 the dish. The cube mycelium colonized the rest of the dish, and is now overlapping the green. i will have my friend take a picture and post it tomorrow for your review.




That doesn't mean the cubensis mycelium 'beat' the trich.  I have over 200 species of mushroom cultures in my collection and none of them will consume and eat green mold.

Try inoculating grains with that petri dish and watch what happens.  This is why we toss out cultures with mold.
RR


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Offlineteesionbear
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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11921097 - 01/28/10 10:06 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

It was inoculated on one end, and the opposite end developed a small green blob that grew to about 1/5 the dish. The cube mycelium colonized the rest of the dish, and is now overlapping the green. i will have my friend take a picture and post it tomorrow for your review.




That doesn't mean the cubensis mycelium 'beat' the trich.  I have over 200 species of mushroom cultures in my collection and none of them will consume and eat green mold.

Try inoculating grains with that petri dish and watch what happens.  This is why we toss out cultures with mold.
RR





First of all RR, I respect and value your opinion above all others on the subject of mushroom cultivation.


Now, I just called my friend to have him take a picture but he's out now so it'll have to wait until tomorrow, but he reminded me of something:

Bruising can't be the issue, because the "green mold" appeared before the cube mycelium and grew quicker than the mycelium. It was a week or two later that the mycelium contacted the "green mold." Then several weeks after that the mycelium "ate" the "green mold."


I'm starting to doubt it is true green mold because it appeared green from the first observation, whereas green mold would be white then green. This was green and got bigger but was always green.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: teesionbear]
    #11921179 - 01/28/10 10:23 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

If it was slimy in appearance, it could be bacteria.  Some cubensis mycelium has enough antibiotic properties to overcome bacteria, but such strains are rare.  Oyster mycelium on the other hand will easily defeat bacteria.
RR


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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11921967 - 01/29/10 01:05 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
If it was slimy in appearance, it could be bacteria.  Some cubensis mycelium has enough antibiotic properties to overcome bacteria, but such strains are rare.  Oyster mycelium on the other hand will easily defeat bacteria.
RR



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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: Isaacav3]
    #11951504 - 02/02/10 10:39 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

got some pictures for your viewing pleasure.
The black marker lines represent the borders of the contam when it was first discovered.

In this first image below, you can see in some areas the mycelium covered the green mold, in others the green mold actually expanded.


In this next image, you can see the mycelium completely covering the green, but there is a faint hint of green beneath the mycelium.


In this 3rd image, there is no trace of green mold.


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Re: Selecting for mycelium that [Re: teesionbear]
    #11951548 - 02/02/10 10:45 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

The next pictures are of an agar dish that was contaminated by green mold.

Again the lines represent the borders of the green mold, as you can see its losing real estate.





I expect the cube mycelium will not progress too much more on the dish because the green mold has built up a bunch of waste products that are toxic to cubes.

All the pictures shown above were taken 1/31 i believe.

Edited by teesionbear (02/02/10 10:52 PM)

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Offlineteesionbear
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Re: Selecting for mycelium that [Re: teesionbear]
    #11951608 - 02/02/10 10:57 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Last post.

This last image has a patch of mycelium in the middle that was transferred from some of the mycelium that was covering the green mold in the previous petri dish.

Green mold made its way on the dish as well(not on purpose).


This picture needs an update tomorrow because as of today the mycelium has caught up to the green mold in terms of size, and furthermore the a line of seperation has formed, where the cube mycelium is still a perfect circle, but he green mold stopped growing, like it cannot grow on the cube mycelium.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Selecting for mycelium that [Re: teesionbear]
    #11954588 - 02/03/10 02:07 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

That's all going about normally.  Unless you don't plan on growing mushrooms any more, all that stuff should be tossed out before the ambient spore load in your house becomes too great to succeed.  The molds will still be there.  Sterile technique, especially for agar work is a must and will ensure colonization by mushroom mycelium without contaminants.
RR


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Re: Selecting for mycelium that [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11955435 - 02/03/10 03:46 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

My friend went and tossed everything but the dishes right after the picture were taken as well as a contaminated bulk tray he had out in his buddy's backyard for a little outdoor experiment.

p.s. my friend whose growing all this has mold on his window seals, his place has tons of mold spores and he's still able to grow pretty well.


thanks a bunch RR and everybody else


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Offlinecdmc1984
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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: teesionbear]
    #15366378 - 11/13/11 07:58 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

ok dude hope your still around what your say makes since because i got trays doing the same the it is a pan strain green mold grow on the grain then the mycelium grows over it eating it idk i hope this get to you i dont know how to start a thread yet


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Offlinecdmc1984
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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: cdmc1984]
    #15366453 - 11/13/11 08:17 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

what strain are you using biologist i got Panam form micro-supply.com and its eating the green mold what im not shure of is the white fluffy stuff that looks like mycelium growing on top of my caps after a bigger cap spores all over it my caps started off orange going to an off white to the edge and now there more white then any thing


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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: cdmc1984]
    #15386623 - 11/17/11 10:55 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Brennus said:
Trying to find a strain of P. Cubensis that can beat trich it like trying to find a human that can fight a tiger bare handed.




done.
The Hawks Eyes Spores sells a strain called Orissa India and in the description it says
"The Indian cubensis also grows around most green mold like its nothing. They continue to flourish around green mold like Oyster mushrooms do. I guess it must be something in the elephant dung that has helped this mushroom develop and immunity to most green mold (trichodermia)"

Read this a few weeks ago when i was making an order from em but I haven't worked with these yet.


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: Shroomopotamus]
    #15395809 - 11/19/11 11:16 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Vendors make a lot of claims that seem to be complete BS. All cubes can grow around mold and under the right circumstances possibly go on like normal but the mold is still there. I guarantee no cubes have an immunity to green mold so the spores released by keeping it around if that happened would eventually catch up to you.


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OfflineEywa_devotee
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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: Kizzle]
    #15435991 - 11/28/11 03:28 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Evntually the green mold wins regardless. The way to get a reasonably resistant strain would be to deliberately introduce trich into live cultures of mushroom and find a strain that grows rhisomorphic with it. Needless to say this is a LOT of agar work. If you find a good fast growing mycilium that does not succumb to trich take samples and make numerous test jars from viable sectors until you find one that copes with it for 2-3 flushes. After that it is OK for it to go to the mean green. You can train almost any mushroom to adapt to cope with trich, though the method to do so is time consuming and labor intensive.

Mean green is not all bad, put the greened mushroom casings in the garden and any nightshade family plant will thank you.


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: Eywa_devotee] * 1
    #15437058 - 11/28/11 07:17 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Eywa_devotee said:
Evntually the green mold wins regardless. The way to get a reasonably resistant strain would be to deliberately introduce trich into live cultures of mushroom and find a strain that grows rhisomorphic with it. Needless to say this is a LOT of agar work. If you find a good fast growing mycilium that does not succumb to trich take samples and make numerous test jars from viable sectors until you find one that copes with it for 2-3 flushes. After that it is OK for it to go to the mean green. You can train almost any mushroom to adapt to cope with trich, though the method to do so is time consuming and labor intensive.

Mean green is not all bad, put the greened mushroom casings in the garden and any nightshade family plant will thank you.



There is a problem with that logic though. Just as a cube strain might be particularly resistant to mold, mold strains could be particularly weak. You could wind up thinking you've isolated a resistant strain when really it was that the mold contaminating it was particularly vulnerable.


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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: Kizzle]
    #15439952 - 11/29/11 12:04 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I have seen it advised to start a LC/agar with some of the substrate it will end up on, e.g. put some rye flour in the LC/agar.

I wonder if you had some contaminated jars and sterilized them could you grow myc on this grain and allow it "get used" to feeding off, or just being around the contaminant. Though I don't know if it could take up toxins with it. You might not want to use the resultant myc as spawn or anything, but could put it on agar again so there is at least no dead contaminants in your eventual grow.

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Offlinecdmc1984
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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: blackout]
    #15446625 - 11/30/11 06:58 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

i would like to retract my earlier statement don't listen to me my shit die the green mold spread like a air fuel bomb draining all the nutrients was suck out and killed every thing els in my tank bleach it all dude and just call it a lose it happens to us all every now and then but ya walk in like ghost buster with a pump up sprayer full of strait bleach spray the shit down bag it tie it off were its at and trash it


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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: teesionbear]
    #19080015 - 11/03/13 11:55 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Hey Guys, I know this post is ancient as hell but I wanted to add a little input and see what you think. I too have been having an annoying trich infestation, but when I see any off growth whatsoever I toss the cake. it seems to be the only thing effecting my cakes and jars. I'd like to think I'm keeping pretty sterile conditions ex: pressure cooking the shit outta my jars, working in a glovebox, all that... but that trich spreads on my cakes so fast and it always goes green and sporeulates before I can get the cake out. The trich has spread fast and I'm pretty certain that its sticky little spores are pretty much all over my clothing and my house now. I have began using LC's to inoculate my cakes however, and I heard that certain concentrations of H2O2 will kill spores, but not mycelium if it has allready taken off. Basically I'm wondering if the trich spores that are inevitabley getting into my jars could be killed by a concentration of H2O2 that wont effect my LC mycelium in the jar. I allready tested a super low conc. on some LC inoculated jars (around 0.05% or something) and got happy myc growth, but one of them was still infected with the nasty green meanie. Is there a "sweet spot" for thw H202 conc? or am I gonna have to just test myself? Also is there any other chemicals out there that would kill off the trich spores without harming the mycelium?

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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: blackout]
    #19080816 - 11/03/13 03:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Trich spores perhaps could be killed but the spores start germinating within minutes of reaching that sterile substrate and the mold mycelium is pretty much immune to peroxide it can degrade it very efficiently as can most molds. The spores are only vulnerable because they have practically no metabolism.

What you need Salazar is to put that effort in to your sterile procedure. If you got some agar and did your work in a cheap still air box I could almost guarantee your mold problem would be solved. The truth is spore prints are going to have contaminants on them even if you're buying them from a trusted vendor and if you're making LCs from those spores rather than from a clean agar culture you can expect to run into the occasional mold at the very and in some cases constant mold problems.

I work almost exclusive with whole grains so I haven't done lot of BRF cakes but I'm sure I've done well over 100 and I've never lost a cake to mold that wasn't obviously exposed to it at some point while it was supposed to be kept sterile, which should be achievable regardless of ambient spores if your using good sterile technique.
Quote:

blackout said:
I have seen it advised to start a LC/agar with some of the substrate it will end up on, e.g. put some rye flour in the LC/agar.

I wonder if you had some contaminated jars and sterilized them could you grow myc on this grain and allow it "get used" to feeding off, or just being around the contaminant. Though I don't know if it could take up toxins with it. You might not want to use the resultant myc as spawn or anything, but could put it on agar again so there is at least no dead contaminants in your eventual grow.



I was reading some stuff and creating commercial mushroom strains that are resistant to certain molds. The method they were using is extracting the mycotoxins that inhibit the mushroom mycelium and exposing cultures to fixed amounts of those. One of the problems is there is a variety of different metabolites produced even by the same mold species. It appears that in nature different mold strains are constantly evolving even on a relatively small scale like on a single mushroom farm and wind up able to more effectively inhibit the mushroom species grown and obvious to also resist various fungicides used. I doubt this happens significantly though on a very small scale like to your typical home cultivator.


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OfflineSalazar
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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: Kizzle]
    #19317393 - 12/23/13 05:43 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Thankfully I think I can write off using the H202 now because I found the trich problem. This LC I made was one of the first and I only sterilized it for 15 minutes or so. Some trich spores must have survived and fed off the mycelium that grew in my LC. Simply put I've made a bunch more LC's since then and they've worked wonderfully. I'm rockin 60 cakes now and only one got infected, and that was with black whisker anyway. I've thought about using agar, but to me LC's are pretty much an economic match for agar...right? or is there anything you can do with agar that you cant with an LC?

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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: ganjababy]
    #21457525 - 03/25/15 08:43 PM (9 years, 6 days ago)

this was an interesting thread. thanks yous

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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: cubensiform]
    #22111916 - 08/19/15 01:18 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

hey, i know this thread is old as shit, but it's the only one on the topic.  I have a bulk ten going in a mini greenhouse, the mycelium went really fluffy, growing out about ¾" past the pin set, it was pure white for about 2 days, then it turned green, like trich.  I have had trich contams before and always toss them out, because I can see the trich colonizing, however, this time the fluffy white myc surrounded the contaminated spots, and then dissipated leaving the spot where it was looking barren and honestly dead, but there is no trich, it's just compost.  So I am going to keep a close eye, but it seems like the OP was on to something.  This particular strain of amazonians also produced a red spore print, so maybe it is just a weird rare strain and I got lucky, if anyone has interest rather then contempt for resurrecting this thread, I will gladly post pics.  but I will come back to describe where this goes.


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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: Jimmyjazz]
    #22547433 - 11/19/15 03:52 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

heh, just in case anyone is curious, my strain indeed eats con tams, not forever, but it fights the contamination until fruiting is complete.  I have selected prints based on the myc's resilience, and as a result I don't need to worry about sterility beyond inoculation… so yes, very possible.  Also selected prints to produce monster size shrrrrrrooooommmmms rad.  *pats self on the back while no one is ever looking*


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"The Meaning of Life is a play on words"

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InvisibleTheEaglesGift
The Nagual


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 10,554
Loc: Ixtlan, Mexico
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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: Jimmyjazz] * 1
    #22547667 - 11/19/15 04:38 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

as a result I don't need to worry about sterility beyond inoculation




Nobody has to.

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Offlinecdmc1984
ilikeurmoms
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Registered: 10/01/11
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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: TheEaglesGift]
    #22551897 - 11/20/15 02:24 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

mushroom mycelia does not eat green mold just incases it. you will find later it will break out and cover the outside of your mushroom mycelia I made the same mistake when I first started. sometimes it will grow and fruit but keep it away from the good none contaminated mycelia. I always set up two fruiting chambers just for this and once the contaminants brakes through the mycelia toss it out ASAP. I set up a good safe spot outside for it to finish up sometime you will get a few more mushrooms out of it but be careful some molds are deadly and you should know what you are playing with!


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OfflinePsilosoulful

Registered: 09/05/14
Posts: 7,205
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Re: Selecting for mycelium that "eats" green mold [Re: TheEaglesGift]
    #22578154 - 11/26/15 12:28 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

TheEaglesGift said:
Quote:

as a result I don't need to worry about sterility beyond inoculation




Nobody has to.



Clean spawn is everything in this hobby. Make sure you know how to use your SAB effectively.

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