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OfflineGrav
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Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 4,454
Last seen: 4 years, 24 days
cold comfort for change.
    #1190458 - 01/04/03 04:03 PM (14 years, 19 days ago)

Just been reading some of the Corporate threads and such...

I feel like some of you guys would go along with anything as long as you've got the upper hand. You justify anything and everything as 'lifes not fair; that's just how it works'. Bullshit. You've got a good deal in life and you don't give a shit how the world is affected by it. You've got some brains and are well educated on the subject so you can tell yourself and others a host of statements to try and make it seem alright.
Welcome to slavery.

and if you think I'm jealous, or the rest of the people who just want some humanity in the world, then you're sadly mistaken.

Sorry if feeding starving children puts a damper in your paycheck.
Go ahead and say that that statement is irrelevant, but the reality is this whole fuckin system is holding the shitty state of the world in an iron fist, and nothing's going to change until we grow up and are ready to sacrifice our precious 'goodies' for human life. Things must change.

[/rant]


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: cold comfort for change. [Re: Grav]
    #1190468 - 01/04/03 04:09 PM (14 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Things must change.


What changes do you propose?



--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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OfflineGrav
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Re: cold comfort for change. [Re: Skikid16]
    #1190502 - 01/04/03 04:29 PM (14 years, 19 days ago)

I don't know what to do, but I'd like to experiment. Anything's better than nothing.

maybe when enough of us get our heads out our asses we can follow through with some intelligent ideas.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: cold comfort for change. [Re: Grav]
    #1190582 - 01/04/03 05:25 PM (14 years, 19 days ago)

****Go ahead and say that that statement is irrelevant****

I believe you just said that it was...

Life's not fair......


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (01/04/03 05:26 PM)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: cold comfort for change. [Re: Grav]
    #1190618 - 01/04/03 05:47 PM (14 years, 19 days ago)


I feel like some of you guys would go along with anything as long as you've got the upper hand.

I assume you are referring to us pro-free market and pro-libertarian leaning
people(myself, Evolving, luvdemshrooms, and pinksharkmark come to mind).
I can only speak for myself when I say BELIEVE ME, I don't have the "upper
hand". I am poor.


You justify anything and everything as 'lifes not fair; that's just how it works'.
Bullshit. You've got a good deal in life and you don't give a shit how the world is affected by it.

Newsflash: Life isn't fair sometimes. When you live in a world populated
by imperfect people, bad things can happen at times. How is it my fault that
there are many places on this Earth that are third-world hell holes? I am
only twenty-three years old. I have had nothing to do with the way this world
ended up. I can understand that I have a moral obligation to be concerned
about my fellow man(and I am by the way), but why should I accept blame for
something that I had nothing to do with, and why should I be FORCED to fix it?
Are you advocating that we implement altruism at the end of a gun?


You've got a good deal in life and you don't give a shit how the world is affected by it.

No, I don't. You probably have more than I do. How is my retention of my meager
resources affecting anybody else? How does being able to choose what to
do with the resources that I earned through my own efforts, make me bad?


You've got some brains and are well educated on the subject so you can tell yourself and others a host of statements to try and make it seem alright.
Welcome to slavery.

Yes, let us consider the concept of slavery. What do you call a situation, where
the results of all of your efforts are taken away from you and redistributed to
other people? What do you call a situation where you are FORCED to do
something, just because other people think it is the "right thing to do"? I consider
this to be slavery to the collective.


and if you think I'm jealous, or the rest of the people who just want some humanity in the world, then you're sadly mistaken.

I do not think you are jealous. I think you are genuinely concerned about the
state of the world and the people who live in it.


Sorry if feeding starving children puts a damper in your paycheck.

If a person is incapable or unwilling to support themself, they should not have
children.


Go ahead and say that that statement is irrelevant, but the reality is this whole fuckin system is holding the shitty state of the world in an iron fist,

Please elaborate.


and nothing's going to change until we grow up and are ready to sacrifice our precious 'goodies' for human life. Things must change.

How must things change? What do you envision the world should be like? And,
seriously think if your vision can be implemented in real life, given that people
have a tendency to be cruel, selfish, and fuck-ups.


RandalFlagg


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OfflinePhred
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Re: cold comfort for change. [Re: Grav]
    #1190620 - 01/04/03 05:48 PM (14 years, 19 days ago)

Grav writes:

I feel like some of you guys would go along with anything as long as you've got the upper hand.

I can't speak for everyone in this forum who objects to the use of government coercion in human affairs, only for myself. But speaking for myself, I certainly object to lots of stuff. Of course, I could hardly be defined as someone who has the upper hand.

You justify anything and everything as 'lifes not fair; that's just how it works'

I don't justify the initiation of force in human affairs, I oppose it. People must be left free to take the actions they feel best (always providing such actions don't violate the rights of others). But the reality is that life isn't fair. Even if every single human on the planet were to respect scrupulously the rights of others, the fact is that some children will be born beautiful, some ugly. Some will be born to a family in sub-Saharan Africa, some to a family in Connecticut. Some will be born weak, others will be born with the ability to win the gold at an olympic sport. Some will be born just in time to be drowned in a flood caused by a monsoon. Some (like me) will be born with the inability to carry a tune as simple as "Mary had a Little Lamb", others will be born with the voice to bring people to their feet at the Sidney Opera House.

You've got a good deal in life and you don't give a shit how the world is affected by it.

My parents never had enough money to own a car. They had no money to send me to University. I was living on my own at age eighteen, working a minimum wage job. I have never been on welfare, never collected an unemployment check, I've created decent jobs for many people in a country where jobs are hard to come by. I've never struck anyone (except maybe when I was still an infant), and I give away money to those in need. I have paid literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes for the politicians to squander as they see fit. I haven't owned a car in fifteen years, and I have no television or stereo or Game Cube or motorcycle or cell phone.

I have not "affected the world" in any negative way at all (except maybe with my second hand tobacco pollution. Sorry about that). Of course, I speak only for myself. Maybe some of the others here posting in favor of freedom are actually dictators of third world countries posting under pseudonyms.

You've got some brains and are well educated on the subject so you can tell yourself and others a host of statements to try and make it seem alright.

I didn't always think the way I do now. I am not a dummy, true, but I have only a high school diploma. I didn't originate any of the ideas I espouse here... they have been around since at least The Enlightenment, and some of them have been around since the days of the Greek philosophers.

Sorry if feeding starving children puts a damper in your paycheck.

I can't speak for others, but my personal charitable donations have bettered the lots of quite a few children, and the jobs I created have benefitted far more. Dominicans have BIG families. I have no problem with giving money to people VOLUNTARILY... I have been doing that since I was twelve years old. I object to having my money taken from me by force. But even if I had never given a dime to anyone my entire life it wouldn't alter the truth of the fundamental principles I espouse.

the reality is this whole fuckin system is holding the shitty state of the world in an iron fist...

Correct. The world will improve much faster once governments release their stranglehold on individual freedoms.

...and nothing's going to change until we grow up and are ready to sacrifice our precious 'goodies' for human life.

You can't legislate compassion. You can't legislate productivity or ability or ambition or talent. All you can do is to try to make people aware that the initiation of force in human affairs is wrong, regardless of what supposedly good "eventual end result" that force is theoretically trying to accomplish. No one's rights are served by the violation of rights.

As for the "sacrifice of goodies", the "goodies" can't be "sacrificed" until they are first produced. No one is going to bust his hump producing goodies that will be seized the instant they come into existence.

pinky





--------------------


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: cold comfort for change. [Re: Grav]
    #1190737 - 01/04/03 06:46 PM (14 years, 19 days ago)

A lot of people are screwed from birth. People are born addicted to crack, born with AIDS, born blind, or with retardation. Billions of people around the world are born in to poverty, a lot of them here in the USA. People are born in to all kinds of shit and they have to deal with it because life isn't fair. If you want to make life fair you'll never succede. The poor will always be with us.

We can and shoiuld strive to make life more fair. I like certian social programs for that purpose, such as unemployment insurance and welfare to work programs to help people better themselves and get decent jobs.

What else would you want to do? Communism? It can only work if it's done voluntarily by moral people.

If you're a healthy young person in the west you can make life what you want it to be. You can get educated, get a job, travel, do whatever. I've been blessed by being a 20th century westerner, and so are you. Instead of dwelling on the negative try to think of all you have to be thankful for. You get to live a life, to live, to love, to work, to hurt, and to die. Your life and every life is a precious thing. Make the most of it.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineCrowHeart
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Re: cold comfort for change. [Re: Grav]
    #1191546 - 01/05/03 03:46 AM (14 years, 19 days ago)

Couldn't agree more


--------------------
What the hell am I supposed to write here???


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OfflineGrav
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Re: cold comfort for change. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1191547 - 01/05/03 03:49 AM (14 years, 19 days ago)

Ah... No, I'm not referring to communism whatsoever, I don't know what gave you that idea. I don't really won't our system of government to change at all, just the intentions of  the people.

And I wasn't directing that message towards anyone really, more like the american people as a whole.

I am not very well educated on governments & politics and what have you...  and I didn't mean to sound like I had a master plan or something.  And I didn't mean to place blame on any one of you.

I love this country and how free we are, if I didn't, then I wouldn't waste my time talking about this.
I was venting my frustration that people in general just aren't trying hard enough, and my post might have come out a little awkward.

I DO think the intentions of this country are fucked up and that many people's apathetic attitudes are causing harm in the rest of the world.  I don't mean that it's our fault, but that we have the power to help out a lot more and we aren't. 

I don't think any change in the government is going to solve anything. It's people's hearts.

thanks for your lengthy inputs  :crazy:


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: cold comfort for change. [Re: Grav]
    #1191708 - 01/05/03 07:07 AM (14 years, 19 days ago)


I DO think the intentions of this country are fucked up and that many people's apathetic attitudes are causing harm in the rest of the world. I don't mean that it's our fault, but that we have the power to help out a lot more and we aren't.

The majority of people tend to be selfish and they usually want to expend the least
amount of effort as is possible. This attitude is not conducive to helping other
people.


I don't think any change in the government is going to solve anything. It's people's hearts.

You can't change what is in other people's hearts.

Just do what you want to do, do what you think is right, and do your best. That's
all you can do.


RandalFlagg


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Anonymous

Re: cold comfort for change. [Re: Grav]
    #1191711 - 01/05/03 07:08 AM (14 years, 19 days ago)

The arguement "you would go along with anything the federalis say" gets old real fast.


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OfflineGrav
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Re: cold comfort for change. [Re: Anonymous]
    #1191803 - 01/05/03 08:07 AM (14 years, 19 days ago)

i didnt say anything about federalists... what's with all these labels and tags some of you are assuming.

i know i cant change peoples hearts, but i know they can be inspired to change.
anyways this is nolonger and i guess was never meant to be political.

welcome to an off-topic thread. thank you, drive thru.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: cold comfort for change. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1192037 - 01/05/03 09:54 AM (14 years, 18 days ago)

"I am poor."

You seem to own a computer, which puts you in the top 5% of the world.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: cold comfort for change. [Re: Phluck]
    #1192067 - 01/05/03 10:05 AM (14 years, 18 days ago)


You seem to own a computer, which puts you in the top 5% of the world.

Ok, let me rephrase that. I am poor for living in America. I have only savings
enough to survive for two weeks or so. I do not own any property. And,
my income is below what is "normal" for most Americans.

However, you are right. I have it better than 95% of the world, and I am thankful
for that.


RandalFlagg


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: cold comfort for change. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1192120 - 01/05/03 10:27 AM (14 years, 18 days ago)

what does having to be poor have to do with anything?

I'm not poor and proud of it :smirk:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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