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OfflineLarrythescaryrexS
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capitalism and commercialism...
    #1188102 - 01/03/03 04:42 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Are these to things mutually inclusive, or can you have one without the other?


--------------------
RIP Acidic_Sloth

Sunset_Mission said:
"larry the scary rex
verily scary when thoroughly vexed
invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex
mercifully massacring memories masterfully
relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully
mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs
invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs"
April 24th 2011


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: capitalism and commercialism... [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #1188425 - 01/03/03 07:13 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Can you define commercialism?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineLarrythescaryrexS
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Re: capitalism and commercialism... [Re: Evolving]
    #1189390 - 01/04/03 06:29 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

for the purposes of this discussion lets define commercialism as rampant corporate greed, and a disregard for everything accept the bottom line.


--------------------
RIP Acidic_Sloth

Sunset_Mission said:
"larry the scary rex
verily scary when thoroughly vexed
invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex
mercifully massacring memories masterfully
relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully
mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs
invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs"
April 24th 2011


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OfflineCrowHeart
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Re: capitalism and commercialism... [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #1189423 - 01/04/03 06:46 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Then no, you cannot have capitalism without commercialism


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What the hell am I supposed to write here???


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OfflineLarrythescaryrexS
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Re: capitalism and commercialism... [Re: CrowHeart]
    #1189617 - 01/04/03 09:09 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

then that brings on the question

is commercialism a bad thing?

Some people act like it is.


--------------------
RIP Acidic_Sloth

Sunset_Mission said:
"larry the scary rex
verily scary when thoroughly vexed
invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex
mercifully massacring memories masterfully
relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully
mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs
invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs"
April 24th 2011


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: capitalism and commercialism... [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #1189895 - 01/04/03 11:10 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

lets define commercialism as rampant corporate greed, and a disregard for everything accept the bottom line.



Of course you can have capitalism without this sort of behavior. It happens all the time.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: capitalism and commercialism... [Re: Evolving]
    #1189979 - 01/04/03 11:55 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Of course you can have capitalism without this sort of behavior. It happens all the time.




Right, isn't that what we had before large corporations and huge conglomerates. For the most bart responsiple small businesses. it has been said that small business is the backbone of capitalism.


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Be all and you'll be to end all


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: capitalism and commercialism... [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1190366 - 01/04/03 03:13 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

it has been said that small business is the backbone of capitalism.




I agree with this totally. Small business is the backbone and huge corporations are the lard. The economy would be much better off if all of that corporate welfare were given to small business owners instead of to big corporations, but the rub is that big corporations and corporate executives are the ones with the really big bucks to give to election campaigns.

Personally I think there should be laws in place to limit the size and power of corporations. This will make it easier for lean and hungry companies to present consumers with alternatives and get a foothold in the market. Most big corporations are big Babylons of waste and excess--oversized executive salaries, overpriced corporate headquarters in high-rent areas, fancy upholstery, corporate jets, ritzy buffets, the whole gamut of wasteful bullshit. Most importantly, the big players have huge advertising, marketing, and distribution budgets which allow them to nip small competitors in the bud before they've really even had a chance to get out there and get known.

As E.F. Schumacher said, "Small is Beautiful."


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OfflinePhred
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Re: capitalism and commercialism... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1190544 - 01/04/03 05:09 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

EchoVortex writes:

The economy would be much better off if all of that corporate welfare were given to small business owners instead of to big corporations...

It would be even better off if there were no welfare at all, corporate or otherwise.

...but the rub is that big corporations and corporate executives are the ones with the really big bucks to give to election campaigns.

Are you saying that corporations shouldn't be allowed to make contributions to political campaigns?

Personally I think there should be laws in place to limit the size...

Why?

...and power of corporations.

What do you mean by "power"?

This will make it easier for lean and hungry companies to present consumers with alternatives...

The widest variety of alternatives a consumer faces are provided by the giants, not the little companies. It's tough to beat the price and selection at WalMart, Future Shop, Home Depot, Staples, Sears, etc.

Most big corporations are big Babylons of waste and excess--oversized executive salaries, overpriced corporate headquarters in high-rent areas, fancy upholstery, corporate jets, ritzy buffets, the whole gamut of wasteful bullshit.

So what? If anything, such wastage provides an advantage to the little guy who doesn't indulge in it, no? And even with that wastage, the biggies still provide good stuff. Hewlett Packard instrumentation and printers are great. The Ford Focus is a damn fine little car. Burger King provides a lot of calories for the buck.

Most importantly, the big players have huge advertising, marketing, and distribution budgets which allow them to nip small competitors in the bud before they've really even had a chance to get out there and get known.

Untrue. Remember the Beta vs VHS contest when VCRs first came out? Sony had an enormous ad budget, yet who do you know who has a Beta format VCR? Do any of your friends drink Zema? Remember the flop that was New Coke?

As for advertising preventing smaller companies from getting a foothold, why is it that I can walk into any supermarket in the US and be faced with carbonated soft drinks from a dozen companies, despite Coca Cola's ad budget? Or I walk into Future Shop and see a wall of two dozen different brands of televisions, only three of whom I have ever seen an ad for? Or I walk into a shoe store in the mall and see fifty different brands of shoes?

pinky


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: capitalism and commercialism... [Re: Phred]
    #1190760 - 01/04/03 06:59 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

"Are you saying that corporations shouldn't be allowed to make contributions to political campaigns?"

I didn't say that, but you know what? That's a good idea.

"The widest variety of alternatives a consumer faces are provided by the giants, not the little companies. It's tough to beat the price and selection at WalMart, Future Shop, Home Depot, Staples, Sears, etc."

It's not tough to beat at all these days. Just go on the internet. Big corporations such as those undercut small retailers who have smaller profit margins. Mammoth retailers can put dozens of small businesses out of business just in one community alone. Instead of having a lot of independent small business owners you have a lot of minimum wage earners.

"So what? If anything, such wastage provides an advantage to the little guy who doesn't indulge in it, no? And even with that wastage, the biggies still provide good stuff. Hewlett Packard instrumentation and printers are great. The Ford Focus is a damn fine little car. Burger King provides a lot of calories for the buck."

The wastage is funded by underpaying the company's lower paid workers. Either that or it is taken out from under the noses of the stockholders. Burger King may provide "calories for the buck" but it certainly doesn't provide nutrition, healthy food, or taste for the buck.

"Untrue. Remember the Beta vs VHS contest when VCRs first came out? Sony had an enormous ad budget, yet who do you know who has a Beta format VCR? Do any of your friends drink Zema? Remember the flop that was New Coke?"

Your examples are completely off topic, not to mention off the mark. I'm talking about BIG companies that stamp out SMALL competitors. Beta was put out by Sony, a big company. VHS was put out by JVC, also a BIG company. Beta was technically superior (in addition to being less bulky) but it lost out to VHS for a number of reasons, mostly having to do with the fact that the VHS manufacturers were better at licensing software. This meant there were more VHS machines out there and VHS took market share and eventually video stores got tired of the expense of carrying two formats for the same film.

Zima is produced by the Coors brewing company and is still being produced.

"New Coke" was a marketing gimmick that was hugely successful. The whole point was not to put out a "new" coke, but rather to create a brewhaha, lots of new (and free) advertising, and draw everybody's attention. New Coke or old, all the money was still going into Coke's coffers. It was a tremendously successful marketing stunt all around.

With a few exceptions, the products and service offered by big corporations are generally mediocre and sometimes plain bad. Corporations concentrate too much wealth in too few hands and limit competition, which makes things worse for everyone. By holding small competitors down, they also make it more difficult for individuals to be autonomous and self-sufficient. The choice then becomes either work for big guy and become dependent on him, or don't work at all. Let's say I'm a hardware salesman. Before Walmart and Home Depot came into town, there were eight or nine small retailers that sold some of the same things those retailers do. The small retailers go out of business, so now instead of having eight or nine employers to choose from, I only have two. Instead of knowing my employer and having an actual human relationship with him, I'll be a number on Walmart's payroll, expendable at any moment.

As a customer I find that service is consistently better at small retailers than at big ones. The employees generally feel more valued, are generally happier with their work, and that shows in the way they act. And if they're NOT happy, they are free then to move to another employer, because there ARE more employers. Few things in this world are more pathetic than a big chain employee wearing a dinky uniform and a forced smile.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: capitalism and commercialism... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1190839 - 01/04/03 07:38 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

EchoVortex writes:

It's not tough to beat at all these days. Just go on the internet.

If the internet retailers are that much better a deal, why are the biggies still in business?

Big corporations such as those undercut small retailers who have smaller profit margins.

Well, if the internet retailers can undercut the biggies, they can certainly undercut small retailers too. Are you suggesting that internet retailers be abolished?

Mammoth retailers can put dozens of small businesses out of business just in one community alone.

Not without the active participation of customers. Each customer is free to decide where he shops... at WalMart, at Mom and Pop's shop, over the internet or from the cable Shopping Network.

The wastage is funded by underpaying the company's lower paid workers. Either that or it is taken out from under the noses of the stockholders.

The company must provide a detailed annual report. If the stockholders object to such frivolous expenditures, they can make their views known at the annual shareholders meeting. As for the workers... if they feel they can make more money for the same work at a company which doesn't throw big parties and own corporate jets, they are certainly free to submit their job applications to such companies.

Your examples are completely off topic, not to mention off the mark.

You think so? I was pointing out that advertising does not guarantee market dominance as you had claimed. But if you feel they were off-topic, here's some more. What about Apple Computer? Two geeks in a garage, literally, with no advertising budget whatsoever. IBM and DEC and Sperry-Univac et al had been around forever, and don't tell me IBM didn't know how to market. You surely must also be aware of the history of Microsoft. MacDonald's started with a guy buying up a few bankrupt burger joints. The fact is that advertising won't stop someone from gaining some of your market share in a free market.

As a customer I find that service is consistently better at small retailers than at big ones.

Usually this is the case. In many cases, this is precisely what allowed a once small retailer to become a big one. But having worked in retail sales for a large part of my adult life, I can assure you that to a huge percentage of people, service means almost nothing. They know exactly what they want, and they want it at the cheapest possible price. This is why internet retailers are successful, for example. You can't beat their price.

pinky



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OfflineDilauded
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Re: capitalism and commercialism... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1191194 - 01/04/03 10:20 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


Small business is the backbone and huge corporations are the lard.




You can't make it to the top unless you start from the bottom. Everyone starts from the bottom unless they inherited it.

Quote:


Personally I think there should be laws in place to limit the size and power of corporations. This will make it easier for lean and hungry companies to present consumers with alternatives and get a foothold in the market.




Naaaa, there shouldn't be, this is America. Those people reached the American dream of making it big. This is a land of opportunity and if someone worked their ass off through college and business school and made it big, then let it be. The harder you work the more you can expect. Knowledge is power. Those corporations are also responsible for lots n lots n lots of jobs. limit to size means a limit to how many jobs.

Unemployment sucks and the less taxes=more money for rich and not so rich=more salaries for more jobs=more people working=more tax money is collected=more things to be bought b/c of more money=better economy.Capitalism

Dilauded


Edited by Dilauded (01/04/03 10:31 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: capitalism and commercialism... [Re: Phred]
    #1191224 - 01/04/03 10:36 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

It would be even better off if there were no welfare at all, corporate or otherwise.

Don't compare keeping a handicapped kid alive with keeping a corporation in pork. They arn't, and never will be, comparable.

So what? If anything, such wastage provides an advantage to the little guy who doesn't indulge in it, no?

Not when the government is paying for it. (With tax money from the little business)

Remember the Beta vs VHS contest when VCRs first came out? Sony had an enormous ad budget, yet who do you know who has a Beta format VCR?

Actually it had nothing to do with this. Sony were closed with sharing their betamax technology. Victor believed a standard had to be established and shared the VHS technology. Certainly had nothing to do with advertisng budgets.

faced with carbonated soft drinks from a dozen companies, despite Coca Cola's ad budget?

Because they're cheaper?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineCrowHeart
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Re: capitalism and commercialism... [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #1191545 - 01/05/03 03:43 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I think it is a bad thing, people exploring each other is not my idea of a good thing.


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What the hell am I supposed to write here???


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