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Invisibletekramrepus
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Registered: 02/20/02
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Procedural Democracy
    #11875561 - 01/21/10 09:02 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

So, we learned in my political science class at the Uni that "procedural democracy" is basically a term used to describe democracy, as adhering to 3 principles that are a BARE minimum for what democracy entails.
This includes, but NOT limited to:
1) Universal Participation (such as right to vote)
2) Political Equality for citizens
3) Majority rule, 50%+1 is win

now, how could America have been a democracy, since until modern times we never adhered to #1, Universal Participation. Minorities, and Women, could not vote. So.....am I missing something?

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Procedural Democracy [Re: tekramrepus]
    #11876889 - 01/22/10 03:26 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

supermarket said:
So.....am I missing something?




Besides the fact that the US is not, never was and was never intended to be a democracy?

It's a Republic.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: Procedural Democracy [Re: tekramrepus]
    #11876947 - 01/22/10 04:07 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Procedural Democracy [Re: tekramrepus]
    #11876998 - 01/22/10 04:53 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

> now, how could America have been a democracy,

America never has been a true democracy.  It was founded as, and has always been, a republic.  Contrary to the tripe they teach in school, democracies are typically not that good.  The 50%+1 leads to 'rule by mob', ignoring the interests of the minority.

Edit: Oops, luvdemshrooms got there first.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Procedural Democracy [Re: tekramrepus]
    #11877313 - 01/22/10 07:45 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Just consider the Bill of Rights.  No matter what the majority wants to do they still cannot impinge on those rights.  I imagine at some point there will be some mention of the concept of "tyranny of the majority."


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Offlinejimbotron
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Re: Procedural Democracy [Re: tekramrepus]
    #11879886 - 01/22/10 03:48 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I think the whole "omg it's a republic" thing is pretty overblown. There is such a thing as a democratic republic; I don't think that the existence of a representative legislature necessarily annihilates the fundamentally democratic character of our government, although in practice you can very well argue that it has done so.

In fact I'm not entirely sure what the pedantic "republic" people think a democracy is. I guess they're talking about direct democracy, i.e. every law is put up for a vote. Many American states allow direct democracy via ballot initiatives, but certainly the federal government does not.

America's "democracy" is unique and, imo, fucked up at the very most fundamental level because of the way we vote. Most places have proportional representation; here we have winner-take-all, so theoretically a party could win 50.1% in every race and end up with 100% of the representatives. Combined with the lack of instant runoff voting, which lets you cast contingency votes (e.g. I vote for the Libertarian candidate, but if he loses, then my vote goes to the Republican) and the fact that we discourage voting by holding elections on Tuesdays and not making it a national holiday (every other country tries to at least help people vote, and many make voting compulsory; additionally, the ballot box is an inexplicable relic in this age when we can at least do fucking vote-by-mail) and the existence of the Senate, which was a deliberately undemocratic concession to the slave states... well we're really not very democratic at all. And I don't even wanna go into the wisdom of the "felons can never vote" laws.

And, yes, I might as well mention the Tyranny of the Majority. Look at Prop 8 in California. Direct democracy is pretty much a disaster everywhere you look. Even more so than representative democracy!

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Procedural Democracy [Re: jimbotron]
    #11880173 - 01/22/10 04:36 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

If not for the system we have we would not be.  There would be no United States.  We would be the Balkans, at best.  Maybe a little richer but no less divided.


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