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InvisibleDoctor_Dick
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Registered: 07/03/09
Posts: 6,289
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wouldnt it be a cool idea...
    #11864524 - 01/20/10 08:55 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

a group of people made an organized plan to grow a ton of lophs and plant all of them in there natural habitat in an attempt to bring the species out of endangerment? just a thought


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:minifo:] "This promise constitutes the heart of my Christian beliefs and my call to natural-scientific research: we will attain to knowledge of the universe through the spirit of truth, and thereby to understanding of our being one with the deepest, most comprehensive reality, God."
-Albert Hofmann

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OfflineWalterShabas
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Registered: 07/30/08
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Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: Doctor_Dick]
    #11864529 - 01/20/10 08:56 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

that would be awesome, but in reality, assholes would go out and poach them to get high


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Push th' little daisies and make 'em come up.

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InvisibleDoctor_Dick
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Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: WalterShabas]
    #11864533 - 01/20/10 08:58 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

:sad you're probably right


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:minifo:] "This promise constitutes the heart of my Christian beliefs and my call to natural-scientific research: we will attain to knowledge of the universe through the spirit of truth, and thereby to understanding of our being one with the deepest, most comprehensive reality, God."
-Albert Hofmann

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InvisibleFleadh
Eh No....
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Registered: 05/11/09
Posts: 2,355
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Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: Doctor_Dick]
    #11864627 - 01/20/10 09:27 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

THB it is very well known payote gets you wasted.

The fact that they are endangered and in dire need of conservation isnt so well known, or cared about.


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Friendships have come and gone but I always regret the girls I didn't bang




I just dont really care what you think

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Invisibleferrel_human
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Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,390
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Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: WalterShabas]
    #11864777 - 01/20/10 09:58 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

WalterShabas said:
that would be awesome, but in reality, assholes would go out and poach them to get high




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Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode

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InvisibleKBG1977
Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 11,017
Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: ferrel_human]
    #11864829 - 01/20/10 10:07 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I think that idea is cool,but not practical.The cultivated Loph's would breed with the Wild ones,which are already endangered and eventually change the wild genetic make up of them.That's my opinion anyway.

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InvisiblePoC
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Registered: 03/10/04
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Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: KBG1977]
    #11864856 - 01/20/10 10:12 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

KBG1977 said:
I think that idea is cool,but not practical.The cultivated Loph's would breed with the Wild ones,which are already endangered and eventually change the wild genetic make up of them.That's my opinion anyway.




Yeah...not something to be done without the proper understanding for sure.  I think another problem is that when you start gathering people to do illegal activities, you put yourself on the radar.

Why is this labelled in the Cannabis section?


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Invisibleferrel_human
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Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: PoC]
    #11864860 - 01/20/10 10:13 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

hadn't even noticed that.


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Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode

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OfflineSpiderbaby
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Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: WalterShabas]
    #11864957 - 01/20/10 10:32 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

WalterShabas said:
that would be awesome, but in reality, assholes would go out and poach them to get high





arseholes will poach them to get high anyway anyway, this plan would undo their damage or at least decrease it

it would have to be done in secret though, since if people knew it would attract more poachers

i think its a good idea :thumbup:

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OfflineCactusdan
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Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: Spiderbaby]
    #11865329 - 01/20/10 11:48 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

There is plenty of land for sale for cheap in TX and Mexico.

All one would have to do is build fences around your property and put em out.

Granted if somebody really wants them they will find a way, but there are other things that could be done to help protect them.

I'm not entirely in agreement about not mixing wild lophs with cultivated ones as there isn't too much hybridizing currently.

Also, because of Lophophora williamsii's self-fertile nature they should be able to keep their genetics fairly intact.

I think a majority of the reason as to why they look so different from wild specimens is because they're babied FAR more than the wild ones.


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OfflineC_T
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Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: Cactusdan]
    #11865587 - 01/20/10 12:35 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

yeah and different growing conditions... now they grow all around the world.

Amazing how 2 identical cacti grown in different locations look quite differently. Colour, size etc.

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InvisiblePoC
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Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: C_T]
    #11866569 - 01/20/10 03:20 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Well if you're raising cultivated Lophophora seed, then you're intentionally or not selecting for your environment, not their original environment.  They take a genetic "detour" through human cultivation instead of having passed the test of reaching maturity in their harsh native habitat. 

The fact that most seeds come from overseas due to their legal status makes me wonder how many generations removed from the wild the seeds really are (especially seeing as seed collection in the US isn't considered legal and taking any part of a cactus from the wild in Mexico is illegal).  There could also easily be some cross-breeding in the genetic line of nursery-bred plants originating from different regions.

In my opinion, the best ways to go about conservation are saving existing populations and their habitat, studying how their seeds survive in habitat, and mimicking the method with wild-collected seeds, giving more seeds a chance to find a good niche habitat to inhabit.  At the least it would be nice to put commercially purchased seeds through this same test of sowing outdoors directly into permanent positions.


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Invisiblenooneman
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Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,664
Loc: Utah
Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: PoC]
    #11866860 - 01/20/10 03:56 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

:lol: I like the idea of a genetic "detour" through humanity. Makes me think of cats and dogs. And pot.

I doubt it would happen with Peyote, though. It hasn't been commonly cultivated long enough to be significantly genetically different from it's wild counterpart. Also, man has probably been selecting which peyote survives and which does not for thousands of years, and that's already quite a bit of potential genetic influence.

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Invisiblescruffymafia
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Registered: 05/30/07
Posts: 2,234
Loc: Wonderland
. [Re: Doctor_Dick]
    #11867249 - 01/20/10 04:51 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

.


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This is the strangest life I've ever known.

Edited by scruffymafia (06/23/20 02:23 AM)

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OfflinetheMallacht
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Registered: 04/25/09
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Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: scruffymafia]
    #11867334 - 01/20/10 05:02 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

scruffymafia said:
But if you find old peyote lands that is now devoid due to mans hand then by all means, populate it at will.




Sounds good, but if you simply put more Peyote in places where it's already been raped and pillaged before, doesn't that mean that people already know about that potential peyote "spot" and will just go back and take the ones that you've put out?


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Invisiblewisp
Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 5,304
Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: theMallacht]
    #11867468 - 01/20/10 05:24 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

As soon as an organism is bred in captivity, it has been genetically altered. Selection is changed, not to favour the natural environment of the organism, but to favour what humans consider to be desirable. A few generations on and a whole suite of gene may have been bred right out of existence.

We cannot possibly know the history of where a seed has come from, unless it is wild-collected, which in itself it not doing conservation any favours. If the seeds are from nursery bred stock though, you can expect them to be genetically altered from their wild cousins. Diluting the wild gene pool with the domesticated one is not a good idea.

There are countless example of scientists and other people thinking they are doing the right thing and causing ecological or special disaster. Unless the breeding is done with only seeds of known provenance, grown in similar harsh conditions so that natural selection plays its role and then planted out in the same provenance that the seeds originally came from, would there be merit to it.

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Offlinecrazyboy25
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Registered: 05/31/09
Posts: 275
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Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: wisp]
    #11867582 - 01/20/10 05:39 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Cool idea, but Lophs aren't endangered. The definition of endangered is "a species whose numbers are so small that the species is at risk of extinction." L. Williamsii is in no such risk both because it is cultivated in many places for its hallucinogenic properties and because it is a protected species (though this does little to stop poachers.) A lot of the Williamsii being harvested isn't being harvested by Americans or European drug tourists but by locals and shamans eking out a living by selling peyote experiences. 

As for the idea that cultivated seeds would corrupt the gene pool, that is bullshit. Conservation efforts have been breeding and reintroducing species for years now with no ill effects.


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"Life without freedom is not life... freedom is life."

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Invisiblescruffymafia
Dreamer

Registered: 05/30/07
Posts: 2,234
Loc: Wonderland
. [Re: wisp]
    #11867818 - 01/20/10 06:07 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

.


--------------------
This is the strangest life I've ever known.

Edited by scruffymafia (06/23/20 02:23 AM)

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Offlinebenitoamanito
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Registered: 06/18/05
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Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: scruffymafia]
    #11867857 - 01/20/10 06:12 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

all you would have to do is dig some small trenches to plant them, maybe start them in an area where you could loosely cover them with leaves or grass, but still in a desert area.. or go far enough in t he desert that no one would find them.. :smile:

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InvisibleBig L
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Registered: 02/11/09
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Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: crazyboy25]
    #11868058 - 01/20/10 06:44 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I would argue that farmers are more to blame then poachers.


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Invisibleferrel_human
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Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: PoC]
    #11868156 - 01/20/10 07:04 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

PatternOfChaos said:
Well if you're raising cultivated Lophophora seed, then you're intentionally or not selecting for your environment, not their original environment.  They take a genetic "detour" through human cultivation instead of having passed the test of reaching maturity in their harsh native habitat. 

The fact that most seeds come from overseas due to their legal status makes me wonder how many generations removed from the wild the seeds really are (especially seeing as seed collection in the US isn't considered legal and taking any part of a cactus from the wild in Mexico is illegal).  There could also easily be some cross-breeding in the genetic line of nursery-bred plants originating from different regions.

In my opinion, the best ways to go about conservation are saving existing populations and their habitat, studying how their seeds survive in habitat, and mimicking the method with wild-collected seeds, giving more seeds a chance to find a good niche habitat to inhabit.  At the least it would be nice to put commercially purchased seeds through this same test of sowing outdoors directly into permanent positions.




well i got them in there natural environment. so no worries here.


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Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode

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Invisiblewisp
Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 5,304
Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: ferrel_human]
    #11868602 - 01/20/10 08:11 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Scruffymafia, it was a figure of speech. However, genetic diversity can be reduced through selective breeding. A toy poodle does not have the ability to become a wild wolf once more, unless it is selectively outbred with wolves or others dog which haven't become so specialised over many, many generations. Even then, it won't be the same.

To say that "dead" genes can always be switched on is wrong. We know very little about the "junk" (exons) in DNA and we certainly don't know whether they can be switched on to become useful, functioning genes again.

The fact is, is that the longer plants are bred in captivity, the more likely they are to become cultivars. There are different environmental pressures being exerted on organisms bred in captivity, so different alleles are going to be switched on, while others will become redundant. Perhaps one or two generations wouldn't be a problem, but 10 or 20 I wouldn't be so sure about.

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InvisibleKBG1977
Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 11,017
Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: wisp]
    #11868702 - 01/20/10 08:29 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I just checked the status of Lophophora,and it's not even close to being endangered or threatened.I think up around human cities,and dwellings it is a lot harder to find maybe,but just think how vast the desert is.Some parts aren't even accessible to cars or even humans on foot.Peyote is at it's strongest in those areas.So really,there is no point in trying to introduce new cultivars to the wild.The population is strong enough already:grin:

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Invisiblescruffymafia
Dreamer

Registered: 05/30/07
Posts: 2,234
Loc: Wonderland
. [Re: wisp]
    #11868917 - 01/20/10 09:00 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

.


--------------------
This is the strangest life I've ever known.

Edited by scruffymafia (06/23/20 02:23 AM)

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Invisiblenooneman
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Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,664
Loc: Utah
Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: scruffymafia]
    #11869236 - 01/20/10 09:54 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I think we should all just contribute to maintaining the species in it's domesticated and cultivated form :thumbup: :yesnod: That way no asshole poachers or farmers can kill any.

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Offlineshred805
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Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: nooneman]
    #11869529 - 01/20/10 10:41 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

definatly

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OfflineCactusdan
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Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: shred805]
    #11869624 - 01/20/10 10:55 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I read somewhere that it takes cacti something like 10 generations to become "domesticated.

But I can't quite recall where I heard such a thing.

But IF it were true, I doubt many of the Lophophora would be in their 10th generation as I'm pretty sure the trade of them has only been heavy since the mid 20th Century.

I still stick to saying that re-introduction is not a bad thing.

How do you think the different localities developed?

Through breeding of different phenotypes, it would be no different IMO.

However, I don't feel this can be truly accomplished until Lophophora are legal for cultivation in the US and Mexico.

Until then, I will continue to support The Cactus Conservation Institute and hope they can help.

@KBG: There is a more dens population in the barrens of Mexico, where the range is substantially more.

Also, you don't have the NAC and farmers affecting populations, granted you do have other Peyote tribes in the region, but many of those are far less in number than the NAC which consumes upwards of 2,000,000 buttons a year.


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OfflineSpiderbaby
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Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: wisp]
    #11870518 - 01/21/10 05:18 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

tripsis said:


To say that "dead" genes can always be switched on is wrong. We know very little about the "junk" (exons) in DNA and we certainly don't know whether they can be switched on to become useful, functioning genes again.

The fact is, is that the longer plants are bred in captivity, the more likely they are to become cultivars.






exons are the coding segments, introns are the junk DNA,

it is true that selectively bred plants or any organisms will eventually diverge from their original wild phenotype but any peyote in captivity arent being selectively bred for any specific characteristics so shouldnt have changed much, not to mention they havnt been intensively bred since there is no commercial use for a bigger/stronger/faster/prettier peyote

if the peyote were introduced maybe 1 or two years before flowering age the environmental conditions would weed out and kill any peyote that are genetically inferior before they can transfer genetic material

i think its a good idea, sure people will poach some of them, but wouldnt you rather people poach from a growing population than from a dwindling one?

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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: Spiderbaby]
    #11873228 - 01/21/10 03:20 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Im going to the peyote gardens pretty soon within a week or two. Im gonna see for myself just how bad things are and hear it straight from Mauro.

Quote:

There is plenty of land for sale for cheap in TX and Mexico.




unfortunately thats not true in Texas in the region of peyote's habitat. The land prices have skyrocketed due to oil speculation. We need about 2000 acres worth of land for a proper conservation range habitat. This is something the different NAC chapters in texas are raising the money for.


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Edited by ShroomDoom (01/21/10 03:27 PM)

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Invisiblenooneman
Male

Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,664
Loc: Utah
Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #11874020 - 01/21/10 05:20 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ShroomDoom said:

unfortunately thats not true in Texas in the region of peyote's habitat. The land prices have skyrocketed due to oil speculation. We need about 2000 acres worth of land for a proper conservation range habitat. This is something the different NAC chapters in texas are raising the money for.



Good to know that a large organization with potentially lots of money and man power is supporting conservation efforts :thumbup:

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Invisibleferrel_human
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Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #11874127 - 01/21/10 05:32 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ShroomDoom said:
Im going to the peyote gardens pretty soon within a week or two. Im gonna see for myself just how bad things are and hear it straight from Mauro.

Quote:

There is plenty of land for sale for cheap in TX and Mexico.




unfortunately thats not true in Texas in the region of peyote's habitat. The land prices have skyrocketed due to oil speculation. We need about 2000 acres worth of land for a proper conservation range habitat. This is something the different NAC chapters in texas are raising the money for.




there is land in roma for sale. they were selling 5 acre plots for about 80grand, i think. out side the city. right in the brush.:drooling:


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Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode

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OfflineRipvanBongBowl
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Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: Doctor_Dick]
    #11874273 - 01/21/10 05:51 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

whats this plant you speak of? haha

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