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Invisibleferrel_human
stone eater
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Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,390
Loc: Darkside of the moon Flag
Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: PoC]
    #11868156 - 01/20/10 07:04 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

PatternOfChaos said:
Well if you're raising cultivated Lophophora seed, then you're intentionally or not selecting for your environment, not their original environment.  They take a genetic "detour" through human cultivation instead of having passed the test of reaching maturity in their harsh native habitat. 

The fact that most seeds come from overseas due to their legal status makes me wonder how many generations removed from the wild the seeds really are (especially seeing as seed collection in the US isn't considered legal and taking any part of a cactus from the wild in Mexico is illegal).  There could also easily be some cross-breeding in the genetic line of nursery-bred plants originating from different regions.

In my opinion, the best ways to go about conservation are saving existing populations and their habitat, studying how their seeds survive in habitat, and mimicking the method with wild-collected seeds, giving more seeds a chance to find a good niche habitat to inhabit.  At the least it would be nice to put commercially purchased seeds through this same test of sowing outdoors directly into permanent positions.




well i got them in there natural environment. so no worries here.


--------------------
Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode

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Invisiblewisp
Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 5,304
Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: ferrel_human]
    #11868602 - 01/20/10 08:11 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Scruffymafia, it was a figure of speech. However, genetic diversity can be reduced through selective breeding. A toy poodle does not have the ability to become a wild wolf once more, unless it is selectively outbred with wolves or others dog which haven't become so specialised over many, many generations. Even then, it won't be the same.

To say that "dead" genes can always be switched on is wrong. We know very little about the "junk" (exons) in DNA and we certainly don't know whether they can be switched on to become useful, functioning genes again.

The fact is, is that the longer plants are bred in captivity, the more likely they are to become cultivars. There are different environmental pressures being exerted on organisms bred in captivity, so different alleles are going to be switched on, while others will become redundant. Perhaps one or two generations wouldn't be a problem, but 10 or 20 I wouldn't be so sure about.

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InvisibleKBG1977
Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 11,017
Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: wisp]
    #11868702 - 01/20/10 08:29 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I just checked the status of Lophophora,and it's not even close to being endangered or threatened.I think up around human cities,and dwellings it is a lot harder to find maybe,but just think how vast the desert is.Some parts aren't even accessible to cars or even humans on foot.Peyote is at it's strongest in those areas.So really,there is no point in trying to introduce new cultivars to the wild.The population is strong enough already:grin:

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Invisiblescruffymafia
Dreamer

Registered: 05/30/07
Posts: 2,234
Loc: Wonderland
. [Re: wisp]
    #11868917 - 01/20/10 09:00 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

.


--------------------
This is the strangest life I've ever known.

Edited by scruffymafia (06/23/20 02:23 AM)

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Invisiblenooneman
Male

Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,664
Loc: Utah
Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: scruffymafia]
    #11869236 - 01/20/10 09:54 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I think we should all just contribute to maintaining the species in it's domesticated and cultivated form :thumbup: :yesnod: That way no asshole poachers or farmers can kill any.

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Offlineshred805
Stranger

Registered: 12/27/09
Posts: 52
Last seen: 11 years, 22 days
Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: nooneman]
    #11869529 - 01/20/10 10:41 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

definatly

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OfflineCactusdan
Patecatl
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Registered: 10/11/07
Posts: 7,024
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: shred805]
    #11869624 - 01/20/10 10:55 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I read somewhere that it takes cacti something like 10 generations to become "domesticated.

But I can't quite recall where I heard such a thing.

But IF it were true, I doubt many of the Lophophora would be in their 10th generation as I'm pretty sure the trade of them has only been heavy since the mid 20th Century.

I still stick to saying that re-introduction is not a bad thing.

How do you think the different localities developed?

Through breeding of different phenotypes, it would be no different IMO.

However, I don't feel this can be truly accomplished until Lophophora are legal for cultivation in the US and Mexico.

Until then, I will continue to support The Cactus Conservation Institute and hope they can help.

@KBG: There is a more dens population in the barrens of Mexico, where the range is substantially more.

Also, you don't have the NAC and farmers affecting populations, granted you do have other Peyote tribes in the region, but many of those are far less in number than the NAC which consumes upwards of 2,000,000 buttons a year.


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OfflineSpiderbaby
?
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Registered: 08/20/06
Posts: 1,439
Loc: Ireland Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: wisp]
    #11870518 - 01/21/10 05:18 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

tripsis said:


To say that "dead" genes can always be switched on is wrong. We know very little about the "junk" (exons) in DNA and we certainly don't know whether they can be switched on to become useful, functioning genes again.

The fact is, is that the longer plants are bred in captivity, the more likely they are to become cultivars.






exons are the coding segments, introns are the junk DNA,

it is true that selectively bred plants or any organisms will eventually diverge from their original wild phenotype but any peyote in captivity arent being selectively bred for any specific characteristics so shouldnt have changed much, not to mention they havnt been intensively bred since there is no commercial use for a bigger/stronger/faster/prettier peyote

if the peyote were introduced maybe 1 or two years before flowering age the environmental conditions would weed out and kill any peyote that are genetically inferior before they can transfer genetic material

i think its a good idea, sure people will poach some of them, but wouldnt you rather people poach from a growing population than from a dwindling one?

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OfflineShroomDoom
Friend of the Medicine
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Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 4,435
Loc: A Psychedelic State Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: Spiderbaby]
    #11873228 - 01/21/10 03:20 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Im going to the peyote gardens pretty soon within a week or two. Im gonna see for myself just how bad things are and hear it straight from Mauro.

Quote:

There is plenty of land for sale for cheap in TX and Mexico.




unfortunately thats not true in Texas in the region of peyote's habitat. The land prices have skyrocketed due to oil speculation. We need about 2000 acres worth of land for a proper conservation range habitat. This is something the different NAC chapters in texas are raising the money for.


--------------------

Edited by ShroomDoom (01/21/10 03:27 PM)

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Invisiblenooneman
Male

Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,664
Loc: Utah
Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #11874020 - 01/21/10 05:20 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ShroomDoom said:

unfortunately thats not true in Texas in the region of peyote's habitat. The land prices have skyrocketed due to oil speculation. We need about 2000 acres worth of land for a proper conservation range habitat. This is something the different NAC chapters in texas are raising the money for.



Good to know that a large organization with potentially lots of money and man power is supporting conservation efforts :thumbup:

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Invisibleferrel_human
stone eater
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Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,390
Loc: Darkside of the moon Flag
Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #11874127 - 01/21/10 05:32 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ShroomDoom said:
Im going to the peyote gardens pretty soon within a week or two. Im gonna see for myself just how bad things are and hear it straight from Mauro.

Quote:

There is plenty of land for sale for cheap in TX and Mexico.




unfortunately thats not true in Texas in the region of peyote's habitat. The land prices have skyrocketed due to oil speculation. We need about 2000 acres worth of land for a proper conservation range habitat. This is something the different NAC chapters in texas are raising the money for.




there is land in roma for sale. they were selling 5 acre plots for about 80grand, i think. out side the city. right in the brush.:drooling:


--------------------
Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode

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OfflineRipvanBongBowl
Seeker
Male

Registered: 01/21/10
Posts: 327
Loc: A Big Corn Field
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: wouldnt it be a cool idea... [Re: Doctor_Dick]
    #11874273 - 01/21/10 05:51 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

whats this plant you speak of? haha

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