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InvisibleSclorch
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Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life
    #1183723 - 01/01/03 08:40 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

1. Uncertainty exists.
2. Patterns surface.
3. Recognizing these patterns helps us cope with uncertainty.
4. Sometimes we don't make alot of connections.
5. This can lead to insecurity.
6. Enter: Fear of the Unknown.
7. Sometimes some of us cling to what person X (an "authority" perhaps) says, because it's "working" for person X (according to our perception).
8. Sometimes we'll be willing to die for these perceived rock-solid "truths".
9. Sometimes we do.

I think the real problem occurs somewhere between step 4 and 5.


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OfflineCrowHeart
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Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 90
Loc: Cast?lo da Maia, Maia, Po...
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1183840 - 01/02/03 12:18 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I think the problems are steps 8 and 9, even more so if you exchange "we'll be willing to die" for "we'll be willing to kill", as it happens more frequently.


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What the hell am I supposed to write here???

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OfflineTannis
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Registered: 12/13/01
Posts: 508
Loc: MD.USA
Last seen: 21 years, 15 hours
Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1183870 - 01/02/03 01:13 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Step 4......not making connections......I agree that this is the problem......

.....but this creates another problem....if I can make connections better than others.....that leads to Step 7, where people look at me as some kind of "authority" or they accuse me of trying to be an authority......

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Invisiblemr crisper
.

Registered: 07/24/00
Posts: 928
Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1183883 - 01/02/03 01:24 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

i opt for 3. it is up to the individual to develop the tools of reason, concentration and curiousity, that enable one to recognize these patterns more comprehensively.
there are many ways to exercise and develop these faculties.
the ability to reason and concentration are not exactly cherished in modern society.

i liked no.1 - 'uncertainty exists' -

it pays to love uncertainty unconditionally.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1183990 - 01/02/03 02:46 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

The real problem appears to be not accepting 1.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Swami]
    #1184135 - 01/02/03 04:22 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

IMO.....our sensual interpretation of number two(no pun intended :grin:) is where things begin to break down.Certainly uncertainty exists for humans bound to senses which interpret reality,however in reality there is no uncertainty just ignorance.So we replace uncertainty with ignorance and then we make asssumptions on recognizable patterns based on ignorance and sensuality.A poor base for stablity and concensus.The solution is recognizing that uncertainty is an illusion of the senses caused by ignorance.The unfolding of reality is a certain event,the only true uncertainty is our ability to interpret the patterns we sense.That we hold consensus on the major points of "reality" is testament to our similar wetware performing our interpretation of patterns.In the realm of mind reality is as plastic as quantum theory predicts, in this realm there is no uncertainty,only indeterminism.However our minds recieve material information through our wetware sensors which are bound by patterns we call physical law and thus limit our minds ability to garner information.this creates an illusion of uncertainty when actually it is mere ignorance.Our need for 'Patterns'illustrates our sensualy bound minds battle with ignorance.Everything following #2 is based on purely ignorance and desire :wink: WR 


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: whiterasta]
    #1184140 - 01/02/03 04:25 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Certainly uncertainty exists ...

Are you sure?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Swami]
    #1184176 - 01/02/03 04:47 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Well now I can't be certain,certainly,by my own definition, only ignorant and sensually deluded :grin:And since ignorance is bliss and sensual delusion is a goal of many people why aren't more people happy? :wink:WR 


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OfflineRemy
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Swami]
    #1184178 - 01/02/03 04:50 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Uncertainty is only a product of ours minds. I seriously doubt uncertainity exist in many (if any) other living creatures. Really uncertainty does not exist, it's just our unwillingness to accept situations that don't make sense. Understanding, usually walks hand in hand with acceptance. Certainty and uncertainty are just products of humanity, pretenses which all arguments can be rooted too.

Edited by Remy (01/02/03 06:02 AM)

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: whiterasta]
    #1184180 - 01/02/03 04:50 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Whiterasta, please watch the sophistry.

Uncertainty is "an illusion of the senses"? You speak with an air of absolutism... but uncertainty isn't just some abstract concept. Uncertainty isn't ignorance... it's UNCERTAINTY. There is no ultimate frame of reference. What good comes of thinking that there is some ultimate frame of reference, but we'll never know it due to the limits of our sensory organs? Yeah, sure... let's blame it on our construction... yeah... THAT'S why people die for what they believe. It's pointless to try to take responsibility for anything. It's not OUR fault.
I don't think so.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Remy]
    #1184184 - 01/02/03 04:52 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

So really uncertainty does not exist

And what about Heisenberg?


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1184212 - 01/02/03 05:06 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

The zeppelin that may or may not have caught on fire?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineRemy
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1184233 - 01/02/03 05:17 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Heisenberg's Uncertainity Principle refers to predicting position and momentum at the same time. It means that the more we know about the position of a piece of matter the less we know about where it is going and vice versa. It still always has a position and a momentum, regardless of our ability to predict the two at the same time. Therefore the uncertainity is only a product of the observer, and does not apply to what we are observing, only to the observer trying to observe it. Thus the observer becomes part of problem. This is applicable to all things in motion, however at the macroscopic scale, we can predict the momentum and position much more accurately because the motions of objects in the macroscopic world (reality) is relative to us, whereas the motion of particles is not, because they exist on a different scale than our own (they act almost independtly to our actions). When we try to make the motion of particles relative to us, we are left with the Uncertainity Principle.

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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Remy]
    #1184241 - 01/02/03 05:22 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

It means that the more we know about the position of a piece of matter the less we know about where it is going...

You mean like my girlfriend?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Remy]
    #1184246 - 01/02/03 05:27 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for the lesson... that wasn't what I was asking.

There's a continuity problem here... you find it.


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InvisibleRevelation

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Registered: 08/04/01
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1184247 - 01/02/03 05:28 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I get by #5 with "No doubt the universe is unfolding as it should". Bit of a cop out, perhaps.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
Day careobserver
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Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1184261 - 01/02/03 05:34 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

His cat either died or lived no uncertainty...only ignorance.Sclorch It seems as though in your attempted pragmatic approach you choose to ignore the basic physical nature of the instrument you use to interpret reality.I apologize for approaching an absolute concept as I do not believe in absolutes only interpretations as is my post,An interpretation I have made using my physical senses.I have come to not view these sensual interpretations as absolute or even acurate mearly convenient and consensual.This is why I said that things really break down after the second premise.Patterns do not arise we either create them to serve us or we search them out to explain what our senses have supplied.As I stated the realm of mind is as plastic as reality on a quantum level(indeed mind appears to be a holograph of reality containing all of it's information in potential)but the mind is fed with information from physicaly bound senses failing to acknowledge the duality of this existance confines your arguements to only that which can be determined sensualy.The conflicts which arise from the plasticity of quantum mind and the rigidity of sensual interpretation are the root of uncertainty/ignorance.Not acknowleging that we have this duality and focusing soley on that which is determined sensualy gives rise to statements such as "patterns arise" This is false,we activly search them out and create them to manipulate reality.Patterns do not "arise" anymore than Chaos "arises".Reality simply exists,we exist within it.We interpret it with senses bound by it.Mind exists,we also exist within it,when we understand Mind we will also understand Reality.All else are the "patterns" we have created/assumed to facilitate our existance.Therefore I stand by my original statement that in between the concept of uncertainty/ignorance and the patterns we use to manipulate our perception of reality is where the breakdown has begun.BTW I am doing my interpretations right now through the sensual fog of benadryl so if I am not up to my usual level of obfusication and reflection it is the drug speaking not me Unkay :wink:WR 


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OfflineRemy
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1184363 - 01/02/03 06:22 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

There's a continuity problem here... you find it.




I assume you are refering to quantum leaps, in which the point from which possible becomes actual relies in the observer, but this is purely theoretical. The possible will become actual, regardless of the observer. Therfore, uncertainty still only exists in the mind of the observer. We live in a continous universe. Accepting that is the first step on the path to a greater understanding.

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Remy]
    #1184915 - 01/02/03 09:42 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

You've assumed wrong.

Maybe coherence is a better word for it... yeah, it's an issue of systemic coherence.


is the first step on the path to a greater understanding.

Rhetoric like this just makes me laugh. It reminds me of those stupid plaques and framed placards with lame poems or "words of inspiration/motivation/whatever" on them... like: "Reach For the Stars" and there's a watercolor of a child's hand stretched out towards a sky filled with multicolored stars....

I hate it when people have crap like that displayed. It's the kind of crap parents (or grandparents) buy because they don't know their progeny well enough to get them something better.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1185096 - 01/02/03 10:55 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Maybe coherence is a better word for it... yeah, it's an issue of systemic coherence.






Please name a coherent system generated by human deed or thought which maintains coherence separate from human observation or construct.Please exclude consensualy observed "natural" phenomenon and use only examples of human "coherence" at any level.Is coherence a property or construct of ephemeral creatures?


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: whiterasta]
    #1186807 - 01/03/03 05:56 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I try to be witty with parallels... and no one gets it.

When I used the words "continuity" and "coherence" were you thinking that I was speaking of physics?

How about this: It seems the coherence quotient isn't so far to the right on the bell curve.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1186830 - 01/03/03 06:08 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Ask not for whom the bell tolls......It tolls for thee!



Coherently, and to the far right :grin: 


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Anonymous

Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1187213 - 01/03/03 08:23 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I try to be witty with parallels... and no one gets it.

I can't say I have understood all your witticisms but I understand the bulk of them. Most of time I smile inwardly and say nothing.

Lately as you know if you read my New Year's thread I am working on Shroomery projects. I read everything that is posted but do not have the time for comments/rebuttals.

Cheers

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OfflineRemy
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1187752 - 01/03/03 11:46 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

is the first step on the path to a greater understanding.

Rhetoric like this just makes me laugh. It reminds me of those stupid plaques and framed placards with lame poems or "words of inspiration/motivation/whatever" on them... like: "Reach For the Stars" and there's a watercolor of a child's hand stretched out towards a sky filled with multicolored stars....

I hate it when people have crap like that displayed. It's the kind of crap parents (or grandparents) buy because they don't know their progeny well enough to get them something better.




You may laugh at it, but if you want to get anywhere on the spiritual path, certain walls need to be knocked down. The first is accepting reality. Whether or not you realize this is unimportant. It is a choice I have made, and a choice you may never desire to make. I have chosen to accept reality, and it has allowed me to make a quantum jump, of sorts.

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Remy]
    #1188857 - 01/03/03 07:40 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Hooray for you then, chief! [/ticker tape parade]

*kicks out Remy's soapbox*
Spiritual elitism is a sign of insecurity and/or spiritual immaturity.

I hope you know that assumption is the mother of all fuckups.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Anonymous

Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1188900 - 01/03/03 08:09 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Interpretations may vary.

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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Remy]
    #1188994 - 01/03/03 10:03 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Mushrooms, medatating and just plain thinking work well for me. I think some people in here are a little too deep into other theries, beliefs and ways of thinking (imo)- nothing wrong with that, but I'd rather just stick to finding my own way while I'm living life. I used to be like most here, but now I'm just content with what I've concluded about life/reality/spirituality and all that.

I also don't read books- they seem to persuade me to take another path that I don't wanna take.

:wink:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Edited by Murex (01/03/03 10:08 PM)

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Offlinephylum sinter
prophet ofzoroaster and/ormarduk

Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 18
Loc: Detroit, MI, USA
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1189032 - 01/03/03 10:45 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

One could argue that the only reason uncertainty appears to exist is because the scope of our attention is so limited in both width [physical awareness] and depth [time]. If you were able to catalog, or chronicle the absolution of now compounded into a single experience -- i believe james joyce has many of these in Ulysses and Finnegan's Wake, they're called COEX systems -- there would be no variables. No uncertainty is present when you take away choice - and if you existed in more than one instance, you would be beyond choice and variable.

The goal then, should be to see and be two places at once... actually, the more the merrier.


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?[ph?l?m]_si?t?r.
"life is a series of tangents, punctuated by rapturous moments of revelation and sadness"
phylumsinter@commiecast.net - SPAM GUARD: remove the 'mie' to reach me.

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Anonymous

Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: phylum sinter]
    #1189044 - 01/03/03 10:58 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Welcome to the Shroomery and SPS! :smile:

Please read the "Be Nice" policy if you haven't done so already.

Enjoy your stay!

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Offlinephylum sinter
prophet ofzoroaster and/ormarduk

Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 18
Loc: Detroit, MI, USA
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: ]
    #1189048 - 01/03/03 11:02 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

yes yes - thanks for the welcome!  and i have read the policy  :grin: 


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?[ph?l?m]_si?t?r.
"life is a series of tangents, punctuated by rapturous moments of revelation and sadness"
phylumsinter@commiecast.net - SPAM GUARD: remove the 'mie' to reach me.

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Anonymous

Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: phylum sinter]
    #1189052 - 01/03/03 11:07 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Awesome!

It seems from your writing that you should really like this place.

Most of us genuinely care for one another except on weekends when we drink too much and want to pick fights.

That's when I drag out the ugly stick and thump 'em hard on the head. :wink:

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Offlinephylum sinter
prophet ofzoroaster and/ormarduk

Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 18
Loc: Detroit, MI, USA
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: ]
    #1189065 - 01/03/03 11:18 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

weekend drinking? weekend fighting?... urination?

i'll fit right in hehehe.

but really, there seems to be quite an impressive collection of heads here... and brains as well.


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?[ph?l?m]_si?t?r.
"life is a series of tangents, punctuated by rapturous moments of revelation and sadness"
phylumsinter@commiecast.net - SPAM GUARD: remove the 'mie' to reach me.

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OfflineGrav
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: phylum sinter]
    #1189097 - 01/04/03 12:09 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

WHATSUP DEWED
DO YUO LIKE MUSHROOMS AND LIMPBISKAT!1/ I LIKE KORN TOO, AND TRIPPIN IS AWSOME!!  A/S/L???11
:wink:

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OfflineRemy
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Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Sclorch]
    #1189408 - 01/04/03 04:37 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Hooray for you then, chief! [/ticker tape parade]

*kicks out Remy's soapbox*
Spiritual elitism is a sign of insecurity and/or spiritual immaturity.

I hope you know that assumption is the mother of all fuckups.




If I came off sounding like an elitist, then we had a misunderstanding. I do not wish to lay my beliefs on anyone, and I don't think they are any better than anyone elses. I have made no simple assumption. I have made certain choices in what I believe and read, but all are based on things that hold true consistently. I acknowledge that many of my beliefs may be wrong, as anyones. Walking the path of the spirit is not like walking any other path, its very easy to stray, everyone does.

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Anonymous

Re: Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life [Re: Remy]
    #1190243 - 01/04/03 12:01 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I don't know much about you but the more I read the more I like.

You impress me Remy, and that takes some doing.

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