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 JackofSpades
Peace
Registered: 03/01/09
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 Ayahuasca: Sprits or hallucinations? 
#11829054 - 01/14/10 03:01 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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what do you think? i cant tell.
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  If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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pfxtc
RUEXP?
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Re: Ayahuasca: Sprits or hallucinations? [Re: JackofSpades]
#11829079 - 01/14/10 03:04 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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I've yet to try it, but from what I've read they appear to be more like spirits, which is either something literal, or just another term for extremely realistic hallucinations.
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koods said:
Young male going by the name "Bassfreak" entered Worcester General complaining of a sharp pain in his buttock region after attending EDM event. Attending physician considered a possible diagnosis of acute rave anus, but upon further investigation it was determined there was nothing cute about patient's anus.
Life-long trip report
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Istigkeit
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Re: Ayahuasca: Sprits or hallucinations? [Re: JackofSpades]
#11829214 - 01/14/10 03:19 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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yet to try it. but I do find you interesting and great! I would say spirits from my limited knowledge 
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OttoGenerated
Stranger
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Re: Ayahuasca: Sprits or hallucinations? [Re: Istigkeit]
#11829364 - 01/14/10 03:36 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Let's see, what happens when you take hallucinogens?
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JackofSpades
Peace
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Re: Ayahuasca: Sprits or hallucinations? [Re: pfxtc]
#11829369 - 01/14/10 03:37 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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The last brew I took was just caapi...but my last brew with the admixture it felt like a black serpent was revolving around me and it scared the shit out of me and I asked it to be nice.
However, it could have just been a hallucination.
I feel like I've seen "spirits"on 5 1/2 grams of mushrooms but honestly what the hell would be the criteria that would distinguish spirits from just a very vivid, alive hallucination?
the only reason i would ever feel aya or mushroom spirits is because both times it felt like something took me over that wasnt me but not really enough proof..
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
Edited by JackofSpades (01/14/10 03:38 PM)
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Angel_Above
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Re: Ayahuasca: Sprits or hallucinations? [Re: JackofSpades]
#11829650 - 01/14/10 04:17 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
JackofSpades said:
The last brew I took was just caapi...but my last brew with the admixture it felt like a black serpent was revolving around me and it scared the shit out of me and I asked it to be nice.
However, it could have just been a hallucination.
I feel like I've seen "spirits"on 5 1/2 grams of mushrooms but honestly what the hell would be the criteria that would distinguish spirits from just a very vivid, alive hallucination?
the only reason i would ever feel aya or mushroom spirits is because both times it felt like something took me over that wasnt me but not really enough proof..
Well you're asking for proof on something that has metaphysical meaning. We have yet to define them as spirits or hallucinations, so it's really up to YOU whether or not you believe them to be spirits or figments of your imagination.
Also depends on your word used to define these substances. Calling them entheogens and using them spiritually/ritualistically would lead you believe that what you experience are, in facts, spirits from a not-so distant plane.
Definition for hallucination is: a sensory experience of something that does not exist outside the mind, caused by various physical and mental disorders, or by reaction to certain toxic substances, and usually manifested as visual or auditory images.
Doing hallucinogens would lead one to believe that they are not real and neither is experiencing them.
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OttoGenerated
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Re: Ayahuasca: Sprits or hallucinations? [Re: Angel_Above]
#11829911 - 01/14/10 05:07 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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But ask a schizophrenic person what "real" is. Then you start to see the problem.
If it's real to you, then by all means, believe it. Just don't assume agreement on the part of any other person. Something about making an ass of yourself (in a very big way).
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Angel_Above
Nobody
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Re: Ayahuasca: Sprits or hallucinations? [Re: OttoGenerated]
#11830021 - 01/14/10 05:25 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
OttoGenerated said:
But ask a schizophrenic person what "real" is. Then you start to see the problem.
If it's real to you, then by all means, believe it. Just don't assume agreement on the part of any other person. Something about making an ass of yourself (in a very big way).
Yeah. They would call them real because they experience them.
I guess experience is the only way to determine what's real?
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OttoGenerated
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Re: Ayahuasca: Sprits or hallucinations? [Re: Angel_Above]
#11830048 - 01/14/10 05:29 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't think there is a way, but I don't believe in reality.
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 thedudenj
Man of the Woods
Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Ayahuasca: Sprits or hallucinations? [Re: OttoGenerated]
#11830075 - 01/14/10 05:35 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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LOL is all i gota say it really depends on the situation and arent all hallucinations just distortions of reality any way which is made of spirits
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"You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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Angel_Above
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Re: Ayahuasca: Sprits or hallucinations? [Re: OttoGenerated]
#11830083 - 01/14/10 05:36 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hard to NOT believe in something you experience everyday.
I believe in reality, just not in consensus reality we're accustomed to believe in (the one created by seeing, feeling, smelling, tasting, hearing).
It's much more multi-dimensional than our 5 senses will ever be able to understand.
What lies beyond our 5 senses (where things like spirits/hallucinations exist, depending on your beliefs) is only open to your own intepretation.
Call 'em spirits, call 'em hallucinations, it's all good in the hood.
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Angel_Above
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Re: Ayahuasca: Sprits or hallucinations? [Re: thedudenj]
#11830100 - 01/14/10 05:39 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
thedudenj said:
LOL is all i gota say it really depends on the situation and arent all hallucinations just distortions of reality any way which is made of spirits
hallucination means it isn't here.
Calling them spirits is believing that they ARE "here"
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods
Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Ayahuasca: Sprits or hallucinations? [Re: Angel_Above]
#11830139 - 01/14/10 05:43 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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dude seriously what hallucination has ever existed thats not based off something that once existed?
even if you see a mail box turn into a person. A you gota mail box B you got a person thats a form in which is in your memory. its not something that doesnt exist its your perception of existing things being distorted
hallucinations are very similar to delusions
Quote:
Angel_Above said:
Quote:
thedudenj said:
LOL is all i gota say it really depends on the situation and arent all hallucinations just distortions of reality any way which is made of spirits
hallucination means it isn't here.
Calling them spirits is believing that they ARE "here"
Quote:
Angel_Above said:
Quote:
thedudenj said:
LOL is all i gota say it really depends on the situation and arent all hallucinations just distortions of reality any way which is made of spirits
hallucination means it isn't here.
Calling them spirits is believing that they ARE "here"
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"You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke
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Re: Ayahuasca: Sprits or hallucinations? [Re: thedudenj]
#11830324 - 01/14/10 06:15 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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definitely not just hallucinations. Don't get me wrong, there is a whole world of room for self-imbellishment, misinterpretation of visions, and pure insanity
but sometimes you just know something is real.
I once had a "conversation" with a celestial being. The most profound thing about it was the realization that this could not be happening without it actually happening. Meaning that that being was as interested in encountering me as I may have been with it, and it couldn't even be possible without it taking the action to make it happen, which in that case was ayahuasca
i've seen plenty of things on ayahuasca that were simply visions, and not much more, but I remember the first time I ever did ayahuasca, I was laying down, and my stomach was making funny noises...then I realized it wasn't my stomach, it was a whole world of beings (inside me? that is somewhat so but that explanation doesnt cut it) with their own world of unique sounds and music.
plus i've had experiences where within a more "protected area", there weren't unwanted entities, then I went outside, and there were thousands, all over the place. Shamans make a lot of effort to keep unwanted entities out of ceremonies..not that they are bad, they just can distract from the healing work the shaman is trying to do.
there is simply no proper way to explain this well or convincingly. To put it simply, you CAN have misleading visions that aren't entirely real, but some things are definitely real.
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MY HAIR IS A BIRD
YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
   
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Ayahuasca: Sprits or hallucinations? [Re: the bizzle]
#11831337 - 01/14/10 08:22 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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It's difficult to determine whether these entities do in fact have an objective existence or whether they are some sort of autonomous complex of the subconscious. Either way one gets a distinct impression of interacting with a conscious being that has its own agenda.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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veda_sticks
Cultivator
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Re: Ayahuasca: Sprits or hallucinations? [Re: deCypher]
#11831634 - 01/14/10 09:09 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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we'll never know until we can actually prove it.
For me, ive never encountered any beings or other worlds. Everything just looks complelty different to the point the rooms not even recognisable. geometric patterns, neon colours ubelievable 3d tracers etc.
No beings, entitys, machines, elfs etc. Just a mind blowing psycadelic world.
Personaly, i dont think it is beings enties, another dimension or whatever. Just a colourfull rewiring of your perception.
What is real anyway. What you can see, taste, smell, feel. There merely electrical signals processed by your brain.
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PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666
Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD
Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong
Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek
Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek
Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub
Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek
Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke
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Posts: 11,870
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Re: Ayahuasca: Sprits or hallucinations? [Re: veda_sticks]
#11831753 - 01/14/10 09:28 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
veda_sticks said:
we'll never know until we can actually prove it.
For me, ive never encountered any beings or other worlds. Everything just looks complelty different to the point the rooms not even recognisable. geometric patterns, neon colours ubelievable 3d tracers etc.
No beings, entitys, machines, elfs etc. Just a mind blowing psycadelic world.
Personaly, i dont think it is beings enties, another dimension or whatever. Just a colourfull rewiring of your perception.
What is real anyway. What you can see, taste, smell, feel. There merely electrical signals processed by your brain.
but you just said you've never encountered entities.
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MY HAIR IS A BIRD
YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
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NlightNd1
∇Δ∇Δ∇Δ∇
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Holographic Omniverse
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Re: Ayahuasca: Sprits or hallucinations? [Re: JackofSpades]
#11833550 - 01/15/10 07:22 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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They're definitely real in some way. That is, they're not just an illusion. Whether they exist autonomously or whether they are merely the Universe's puppets, I cannot discern. However I am certain that they are powered by some form of intelligence other than my own mind. I don't view the DMT sensorium as a product of my own consciousness, the way dreams are. The advanced perceptions of that realm are way beyond my imagination. I can't even reconstruct those visions based off of memory. They're just way too complex. Plus many people report seeing the exact same entities when they previously had no preconceived notion that those entities were capable of being seen on DMT.
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Turn off your mind, relax and floatdown stream. It is not dying. Lay down all thought, surrender to the void. It is shining.  Pink Floyd
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JackofSpades
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Re: Ayahuasca: Sprits or hallucinations? [Re: NlightNd1]
#11833909 - 01/15/10 09:15 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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yeah but the ayahausca spirit isnt DMT thats the thing
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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NlightNd1
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Posts: 1,883
Loc: Holographic Omniverse
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Re: Ayahuasca: Spirits or hallucinations? [Re: JackofSpades]
#11833936 - 01/15/10 09:23 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
JackofSpades said:
yeah but the ayahuasca spirit isn't DMT that's the thing
Are you talking about just banisteriopsis caapi or do you mean Ayahuasca has different effects than DMT?
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Turn off your mind, relax and floatdown stream. It is not dying. Lay down all thought, surrender to the void. It is shining. Pink Floyd
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JackofSpades
Peace
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Re: Ayahuasca: Spirits or hallucinations? [Re: NlightNd1]
#11833945 - 01/15/10 09:24 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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caapi
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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NlightNd1
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Posts: 1,883
Loc: Holographic Omniverse
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Re: Ayahuasca: Spirits or hallucinations? [Re: JackofSpades]
#11833977 - 01/15/10 09:32 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Okay, I didn't know you were referring to the the vine of the dead. I've never taken banisteriopsis caapi so I have no idea.
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Turn off your mind, relax and floatdown stream. It is not dying. Lay down all thought, surrender to the void. It is shining. Pink Floyd
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JackofSpades
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Re: Ayahuasca: Spirits or hallucinations? [Re: NlightNd1]
#11834005 - 01/15/10 09:36 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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when you take just caapi its weird.
its sort of like all DMT is just intensify the experience and create vivid hallucinations for what you are experiencing.
caapi alone creates the same sensations and experience and less intense/vivid/interesting visuals.
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
Edited by JackofSpades (01/15/10 09:37 AM)
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Angel_Above
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Re: Ayahuasca: Spirits or hallucinations? [Re: JackofSpades]
#11834028 - 01/15/10 09:41 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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If ayahuasca is different from DMT, is pharmahuasca (dmt freebase and an maoi) different from ayahuasca?
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JackofSpades
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Re: Ayahuasca: Spirits or hallucinations? [Re: Angel_Above]
#11834045 - 01/15/10 09:46 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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from what i understand yes. i haven't done pharmahuasca though.
technically ayahuasca is caapi + the dmt admixture (as far as i know) but shamans say that the true spirit of ayahausca exists in the caapi.
after taking just caapi i see what they mean like i said dmt just intensifies it, the main thing your experiencing is the caapi.
if caapi is the music then dmt is like adding a really good sound system and light show in my opinion.
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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JackofSpades
Peace
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Re: Ayahuasca: Spirits or hallucinations? [Re: JackofSpades]
#11834073 - 01/15/10 09:52 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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This is the biggest issue with the spirit hallucination debate
I listened to that interview thats on the front page under the ayahuasca book link and the author says something along these lines:
"The spirits are everywhere they are here right now, in this room and ayahausca is the pair of glasses to see them" (they are in a radio show room)
Now, that means these are things that exists outside of us. meaning, not hallucinations.
Everytime I take aya or just caapi i act as if i am coming in contact with spirits (asking to be kind and shit like that) but thats mainly just because im scared shitless (from confronting dark things inside) not because there is undoubtley a spirit.
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods
Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Ayahuasca: Spirits or hallucinations? [Re: JackofSpades]
#11843575 - 01/16/10 08:12 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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its kinda more then just the caapi tho the caapi is the channel id say see the movie avatar and its kinda how that tree is its just a tap into ancestral spirits and existing ones
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"You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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wal0013
kabukiman
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Re: Ayahuasca: Spirits or hallucinations? [Re: thedudenj]
#11855943 - 01/18/10 08:37 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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i think personally you can feel inside you when its a spirit your seeing unlike when its a mere hallucination, in any case you certainly can not dismiss the possibility that some how whether it be through the perceptions of the pineal gland or whatnot that we can on ocassion see "spirits" i guess it also depends on your interpretation of spirits do you define them as sentient beings? energy? a higher power? when the time comes and u see/feel it you will know the difference
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Abuse of words has been the great instrument of sophistry and chicanery, of party, faction, and division of society.
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JackofSpades
Peace
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Re: Ayahuasca: Spirits or hallucinations? [Re: wal0013]
#11859025 - 01/19/10 11:33 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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ive always felt like the caapi just takes you over and your at its command but i cant really say oh yeah that was a "spirit". but im open minded to the idea. i suppose i need to go down to the amazon to experience it.
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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hello_im_alex
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Re: Ayahuasca: Spirits or hallucinations? [Re: JackofSpades]
#11859104 - 01/19/10 11:48 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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whether they are spirits from outside of you or from in your head it doesn't make any difference to the lessons they have to teach. perhaps the spirits have been in our own DNA the whole time, and now, a few billion years after the event of directed panspermia that began life on earth, our ancient ancestors have awakened from our DNA with the help of a chemical reaction to save the earth from it's forthcoming destruction.
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JackofSpades
Peace
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Re: Ayahuasca: Spirits or hallucinations? [Re: hello_im_alex]
#11859240 - 01/19/10 12:10 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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yeah im down with that.
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Ayahuasca: Sprits or hallucinations? [Re: NlightNd1]
#11859482 - 01/19/10 01:00 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
They're definitely real in some way.
They're definitely not real as in existing outside of a human brain.
Not one person has ever brought back a single piece of information that they did not already have.
Quote:
However I am certain that they are powered by some form of intelligence other than my own mind.
Your certainty is evidence of nothing. Strong belief has no weight.
Quote:
I can't even reconstruct those visions based off of memory. They're just way too complex. Plus many people report seeing the exact same entities when they previously had no preconceived notion that those entities were capable of being seen on DMT.
Funny how you totally contradict yourself here. These entities/visions cannot be reconstructed because they are too complex, yet vague verbal descriptions point to the exact same thing. 
Try to make sense.
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NlightNd1
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Posts: 1,883
Loc: Holographic Omniverse
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Quote:
Not one person has ever brought back a single piece of information that they did not already have.
Maybe not telepathically imparted information from a Hyperspace entity. However I've brought back plenty of information. The only difference is that it's purely visual information instead. Those unbelievably complex visions could not possibly have come from my subconscious mind because even the combined brain power of the entire human race could duplicate them through imagination. I'm absolutely convinced that those visions are the design of something or Someone who has incomprehensible knowledge and power. My opinion is completely subjective. The only way to understand where I'm coming from is to inject or smoke a massive dose of DMT and see for yourself.
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Turn off your mind, relax and floatdown stream. It is not dying. Lay down all thought, surrender to the void. It is shining. Pink Floyd
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OrgoneConclusion
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Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Ayahuasca: Sprits or hallucinations? [Re: NlightNd1]
#11859875 - 01/19/10 02:07 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Those unbelievably complex visions could not possibly have come from my subconscious mind because even the combined brain power of the entire human race could duplicate them through imagination.
You are a neuro-scientist who has modelled the computing power of the entire human race?
I thought not! 
Quote:
I'm absolutely convinced that those visions are the design of something or Someone who has incomprehensible knowledge and power.
And the suicide bombers who are 'absolutely convinced' they will get 42 virgins in heaven tells us what? How does conviction relate to fact?
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OttoGenerated
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Re: Ayahuasca: Sprits or hallucinations? [Re: NlightNd1]
#11860465 - 01/19/10 03:44 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
NlightNd1 said:
Those unbelievably complex visions could not possibly have come from my subconscious mind because even the combined brain power of the entire human race could duplicate them through imagination.
Except that you're proof that they can, delusional.
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