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OfflineCascadian
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Registered: 09/13/08
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Re: weaponry [Re: QuantumMeltdown]
    #11884534 - 01/23/10 12:15 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Box o Truth - Taurus Judge
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm

Quote:

3. Buckshot out of a .410 does not penetrate enough to be an effective personal defense load.

4. The rifled slug was also a disappointment and did not have enough weight or power or penetration to be effective as a defense load.

5. The .45 Long Colt loads had plenty of penetration and would be the preferred defense load for this pistol.




But now note: a .45 Long Colt with a 200 gr bullet goes 1,032 ft/s, for 473 ft·lbf

Whereas a .357 magnum can fire a 200 gr load at 1,200 ft/s, for 640 ft·lbs.  Thats about 30% more energy killing a bad guy.

Not to mention a box of 50 .357s costs about 20 bucks, whereas the .45 long colt is about 20 bucks for 20 rounds.

and the taurus judge is big and bulky.

So why again would that be a better self defense weapon than an actual shotgun or an actual handgun?

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OfflineCyber
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Re: weaponry [Re: Cascadian]
    #11885381 - 01/23/10 02:34 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Ok, after reading his site I see a couple of things wrong with his tests.

#1) He used 000 buck shot. 3 to a 2.5" .410 shell. I would not use such a large pellet size for that and he even says he had to mod the 3" shell to 2.5" to make it work. It would have been better to do the test with a BB size load in a 2.5" shell. You would have had better penetration and less deformation of the round.

#2) 10 yards to his first target with bird shot. Tell me, do you have a place in your apartment or house where you will be shooting at someone who is 30' away? I dont know about you but if some one is in my place the furthest distance for me would be a 15' shot. 1/2 the distance he is shooting at. Reduce the distance and you will get less of a spread and more penetration.

#3) He does not say the distance to the second target. It looks to be 15 yards but may have been only 10 yards. (See statement in #2) As to using a slug, why? .45 long colt rounds would be better and have better penetration.

#4) He claims 4.5" of penetration on the 000 buck. Even on a large guy that is a gut full of 000 buck and no worry about pass through and hitting the person behind him or penetrating a wall and killing the guy next door.

#5) The water test he does, shooting into a 2 liter bottle of water or a milk jug, is calculated at 4" to 6" when done with a JHP (Jacketed Hollow Point). Not a soft lead round like what he was shooting. On a soft lead round it flattens more and changes the SWAG. Penetrating a single milk jug as he does in the second test is closer to a 10" to 12" penetration.

The two most important factors in stopping a bad guy are: 1) where you place your bullets, and 2) what organs your bullets penetrate and damage.

How much penetration is adequate? According to the nation's most prominent wound ballistics experts, your bullets should penetrate at least 12 inches of soft tissue. Penetration beyond 18 inches is considered too much, and a less penetrating design should be considered to optimize the cartridge's wounding potential.

When a bullet expands, the increased diameter and non-aerodynamic shape acts like a parachute to quickly slow and stop the bullet as it penetrates flesh. The issue here is that water provides more resistance than flesh and is a harder target.

Bullets that meet the 12-18 inch penetration guidelines have proven to be very effective in police shooting incidents that have been investigated by reputable researchers who use the scientific method. These findings have been verified and validated by other distinguished wound ballistics researchers who've fully reviewed the data. These findings are far superior in validity to the Marshall/Sanow "one-shot stopping power" junk-science that is published in newsstand gun magazines.

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OfflineQuantumMeltdown
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Re: weaponry [Re: Cyber]
    #11885538 - 01/23/10 03:11 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

The judge like any gun will kill you maybe not with the .410 but with the .45 but there are still many better options.

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OfflineCascadian
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Re: weaponry [Re: Cyber]
    #11885660 - 01/23/10 03:36 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cyber said:
Ok, after reading his site I see a couple of things wrong with his tests.

#1) He used 000 buck shot. 3 to a 2.5" .410 shell. I would not use such a large pellet size for that and he even says he had to mod the 3" shell to 2.5" to make it work. It would have been better to do the test with a BB size load in a 2.5" shell. You would have had better penetration and less deformation of the round.





He did a test with #6 birdshot, even smaller than BB - he shot a picture of a snake with it.  and boy did that paper have a lot of holes in it.  He then shot a 2 liter waterbottle and it didnt even go out the other side (meaning less than 4 inches ballistic gel penetration).  Birdshot is useless for stopping power.  Especially if it isnt from a full 12 gauge shotgun.

And the reason this guy looks for deformation is that deformation INCREASES damage to organs.  The more a bullet tears apart or mushrooms the greater the wound.

I think he used such a large shot size to see what the maximum damage possible would be.  00buck would penetrate even less than the 000.

He tested some tiny and some huge diameter shot.  Maybe theres a bell curve to effectiveness and #4 buck would penetrate more.  I think more likely a .410 shotgun should just be reserved for shooting squirrels and clay pigeons.
Quote:



#2) 10 yards to his first target with bird shot. Tell me, do you have a place in your apartment or house where you will be shooting at someone who is 30' away? I dont know about you but if some one is in my place the furthest distance for me would be a 15' shot. 1/2 the distance he is shooting at. Reduce the distance and you will get less of a spread and more penetration.





You think the 4.5" of BG the buckshot penetrated would have nearly TRIPLED had he been standing 15' closer?  I think they might have gone a few more inches, but still nowhere near the 12-18" zone.





Quote:


#3) He does not say the distance to the second target. It looks to be 15 yards but may have been only 10 yards. (See statement in #2) As to using a slug, why? .45 long colt rounds would be better and have better penetration.





He tested both slugs and .45LC to compare them.  Some people might think otherwise so he tested all possibilities.  His test proved the slug was not as effective as the .45LC

Quote:


#4) He claims 4.5" of penetration on the 000 buck. Even on a large guy that is a gut full of 000 buck and no worry about pass through and hitting the person behind him or penetrating a wall and killing the guy next door.





just as you say a little further down here - 4.5" is not effective stopping power.  and 3 balls with a wide spread does not make 'a gut full'.  You have a good point about wall penetration, but dont buy a gun if your main concern is in being able to shoot it at a wall and not hurt someone behind it.  Just dont shoot at a wall with someone behind it and you're okay.

Quote:


#5) The water test he does, shooting into a 2 liter bottle of water or a milk jug, is calculated at 4" to 6" when done with a JHP (Jacketed Hollow Point). Not a soft lead round like what he was shooting. On a soft lead round it flattens more and changes the SWAG. Penetrating a single milk jug as he does in the second test is closer to a 10" to 12" penetration.





Keep in mind that 4 inches of water is not 4 inches of BG.  When he tests the .45LC, he says " It penetrated 5 jugs, or equal to 15 inches of BG. "  a single milk jug is nowhere near 10-12" of penetration.  But you are correct, a soft lead round deforms more than a JHP which deforms more than a FMJ.  What was the point in #5 again?

Quote:


The two most important factors in stopping a bad guy are: 1) where you place your bullets, and 2) what organs your bullets penetrate and damage.

How much penetration is adequate? According to the nation's most prominent wound ballistics experts, your bullets should penetrate at least 12 inches of soft tissue. Penetration beyond 18 inches is considered too much, and a less penetrating design should be considered to optimize the cartridge's wounding potential.

When a bullet expands, the increased diameter and non-aerodynamic shape acts like a parachute to quickly slow and stop the bullet as it penetrates flesh. The issue here is that water provides more resistance than flesh and is a harder target.

Bullets that meet the 12-18 inch penetration guidelines have proven to be very effective in police shooting incidents that have been investigated by reputable researchers who use the scientific method. These findings have been verified and validated by other distinguished wound ballistics researchers who've fully reviewed the data. These findings are far superior in validity to the Marshall/Sanow "one-shot stopping power" junk-science that is published in newsstand gun magazines.




? you are correct.  As asserted, the .410 capability of the taurus judge doesnt meet your own standards.  the .45 long colt round does, but other weapons will do the same (or better) in a smaller package while costing less in both the firearm and the ammunition.

I havent even mentioned hydrostatic shock but you seem ready to quote someone about it being a myth. So speaking of newsstand gun magazine hype:  the judge sucks.

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Offlineallreadyused
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Re: weaponry [Re: Cascadian]
    #11906769 - 01/26/10 05:11 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I've shot the Judge, it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot.  But I have to agree as a primary home defense weapon it falls short.  It would be great for keeping in your car in case of a carjacking; but my Glock 19 is fine for that plus it holds 10 more rounds than the Judge.  Some ammo manufacturers as a result of the Judge being on the market have begun developing 00 410 rounds with home defense in mind.


--------------------
Everything I say is for entertainment.

Fuck the ASPCA

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InvisiblePhanodude
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Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 475
Loc: US of A Flag
Re: weaponry [Re: allreadyused]
    #11916113 - 01/28/10 03:05 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

You can go to any local gunshow at your fairgrounds or a state fair and get an AK 47. Gun liscenses are usually done at the DMV or the City Hall (definately don't bring the weapon, just the paperwork lol). You can have a fully automatic AK-47 but that's federally restricted and will require an application process.

My friends dad flies overseas and to africa all the time and he's got like 2 recently made ak's 1 is fully the other is semi and one semi auto from like pakistan or something.

I don't think you can ILLEGALLY purchase a weapon then make the transaction legal later by registering it. That's too risky of business sir, just go to a gunshow.

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OfflineQuantumMeltdown
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Re: weaponry [Re: Phanodude]
    #11916428 - 01/28/10 07:27 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

recently made fully auto weapons cannot be licensed to be legal your friends dads ak is illegal if he brought it over from pstan.

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InvisiblePhanodude
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Registered: 01/18/10
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Re: weaponry [Re: QuantumMeltdown]
    #11918869 - 01/28/10 03:58 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think he's worried about them being legal or not. They're fucking super rich and he stays out of trouble so if they are ever used it'd be for home defense. IDK if it was pakistan but i know it was one of those middle eastern countries.

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Offlinewortime
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Re: weaponry [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #11948450 - 02/02/10 03:23 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

WTF? this is a bull shit post. And while your problem, if its real, would suck? You should be kicked off for the mention of illegal high powered weaponry.

NEVER FUCK WITH TWEAKERS. They will dwell on shit, and in the their sleep deprived delirium they will make up all kinds of shit.
And THEN they get to plotting/planning, like Bill Gates on , well, on Speed. Simpler, better safer solution is to MOVE and never contact them again. cross the street, leave the bar, whatever. Buying a gun is a bad bad bad idea/solution.


Oh.....and stop hitting on lesbian tweekers!


--------------------
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
- Henry Ford

"We are grateful to the Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years... It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government."
- David Rockefeller, Bilderberg Meeting, June 1991 Baden, Germany

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OfflineKillaFoRilla
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Re: weaponry [Re: supra]
    #11948504 - 02/02/10 03:30 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

The SKS will always be one of my favs.  :thumbup:


--------------------

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Anonymous #4

Re: weaponry [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #11951822 - 02/02/10 11:41 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Anonymous said:
ahh, well thank you. i just wanted to know if i can get an ak47 for home defense, i can probably find a full-auto no problem, i know a few people...but then again who wants to swiss cheese their own house?




Sure you can legally own a full auto, with a license of course. You can have a Barrett .50 caliber, AK-47, a kitchen knife or hell even your own two hands for home defense.

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OfflineBillious
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Re: weaponry [Re: Anonymous #4]
    #12066767 - 02/20/10 05:31 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I love when I'm on an internet forum where younger guys start talking about guns, so much machismo thrown around.

Just because we all share a love for certain counter-cultural activities does not mean we have to go off like boner-brained 14 year olds.  The facts about guns:

1: We hope we never have to use them for self-defense.
2: We have a responsibility to the safety of others around.  Defending ourselves doesn't give us the right to endanger others.
3: A medium caliber handgun is going to be more than sufficient for any kind of home-invasion scenario that could be reasonably expected.

Yes, I understand a squad of black-masked Yakuza could rappel through your porch door, and a fully-auto AK could make the difference between getting away or not.  Is this ever going to happen?

It scares me when people start ranting and frothing at the mouth about their stash of guns and ammo, because more often than not those people are far too immature to handle the ethical and legal implications of using force to counter force.

My .40 cal handgun is placed strategically in it's case, with 2 clips of ammo ready to load up.  I can have the thing ready to rock in 5 seconds, and I think that's a very reasonable balance of preparation vs. risk.

</soapbox>

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OfflineQuantumMeltdown
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Re: weaponry [Re: Billious]
    #12068724 - 02/20/10 11:23 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

It might not be necessary but their fun to shoot, own and look at no? Whats the harm its our right. If we don't exercise it then we don't have it.

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: weaponry [Re: QuantumMeltdown]
    #12069355 - 02/21/10 02:43 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

It scares me when people start ranting and frothing at the mouth about their stash of guns and ammo, because more often than not those people are far too immature to handle the ethical and legal implications of using force to counter force.




That's kind of a rash judgement without knowing anything about these people except that they like powerful weaponry.

You never know what kind of force you will face.  Cops bust in all the time in full body armor with fully automatic weapons looking to steal your property, deprive you of your liberty, violate you and your families rights, and potentially kill you.

There are plenty of cases where cops bust into an innocent persons house, kill or wound them, and then plant a gun and/or drugs on them to cover up their mistake.

Personally I use a single shot 20 gauge for defense.  If someone breaks into my house they get a single slug to the chest.  If I miss or simply wound them the light gun makes an excellent weapon to beat their head in.  It's the perfect size and weight to defend yourself with, about equivalent to a baseball bat.


-FF

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Anonymous #5

Re: weaponry [Re: fastfred]
    #12070139 - 02/21/10 09:58 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

AK47 for the win, you can get one legally like I did.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: weaponry [Re: supra]
    #12071115 - 02/21/10 01:46 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

supra said:
Quote:

Anonymous said:
ahh, well thank you. i just wanted to know if i can get an ak47 for home defense, i can probably find a full-auto no problem, i know a few people...but then again who wants to swiss cheese their own house?




an ak is a horrible choice for Home Defense.  If you shoot somone, chances are it goes through their body, continues to travel into and through your wall, and possibly outside into someone else, into your neighbors house, etc.  Plus, in a time of stress, you would have to spot on in aim, and, as someone asking these questions, I would guess that you probably aren't the best shot yet.

Best choice for home defense hands down is a pump action shotgun...the sound of shucking a shell into the chamber is scary enough, and as far as aim is concerned, if your close, you hit them, lastly, no chance of it going through the wall and into someone else...i recommend a mossberg 500 or remington 590...

peace




This is good advice.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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