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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: Potency Project [Re: libertaire]
    #11806713 - 01/11/10 08:18 AM (15 years, 8 days ago)

" average grow will yield for a given strain"
You're missing my point. Strain doesn't matter. It's PE vs 'some cubes'.

"By isolating every substrain, you would be effectively taking into account what all of the possibilities are "
Exactly- and what you should be evaluating is the bell curve that results from a real grow, not these isolated data points.
Roll a pair of dice, you'll get a lot of sevens. You don't need to explore the twelves as thoroughly.


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InvisibleNecco
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Re: Potency Project [Re: libertaire]
    #11806722 - 01/11/10 08:20 AM (15 years, 8 days ago)

Even waking up at 7am I can't keep up with you guys. By the time I wrote a response everything I typed had already been said. :thumbup:

I look forward to hearing a reliable method for active quantification. There are a lot of questions we could answer once a method is developed aside from comparing strains, for instance substrate vs. potency, drying methods vs potency, species vs species, isolate comparisons, and possibly even finding strains that have (high) mycelial content.

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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Doc_T]
    #11806732 - 01/11/10 08:24 AM (15 years, 8 days ago)

I never said strain mattered, I was just saying that for the one strain that your testing, for example like you said, the results of PE vs the results of some other strain.  I don't really see what point I missed...

Your second point is taken, and makes sense.  So basically the only way to really accurately evaluate it would be to do an agreed upon number of MS grows.  How would we determine this number?  How many times is enough to say that you have accurately represented that given strains possible genetics?

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Offlinestinkfoot4
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Doc_T]
    #11806744 - 01/11/10 08:29 AM (15 years, 8 days ago)

I'm willing to run it up the flagpole. this can also encourage the new people, like me, to employ procedures in the 'test/contest' that may wind up helping them overall in this endeavor. nice idea!

~stinky~


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i don't know, but i know i don't know. i'm sure i know this.  if you can't grow it don't take it

it wants me to get involved, but i won't. if i get involved why would i come back? I'll just set here and watch. it will be better for now to stay here. but i sure would like to get involved...

osmosis is a dandy learning stratidgy.
some say, some ask, some know

i cant spell dele with it
don't fool with me baby, you wouldn't last five minutes in my head

don't laugh at me, that's my job

Edited by stinkfoot4 (01/11/10 08:31 AM)

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InvisibleNecco
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Re: Potency Project [Re: libertaire]
    #11806772 - 01/11/10 08:36 AM (15 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

libertaire said:
How many times is enough to say that you have accurately represented that given strains possible genetics?



I think this depends on the deviation we find once we start. If we get twenty flushes that are very close to one another, then we can be more confident in the average than if we get twenty flushes that are very different.

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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Necco]
    #11806787 - 01/11/10 08:40 AM (15 years, 8 days ago)

That's what I'm saying though, with multispore, you're going to get 20 flushes that are different because that's the nature of the beast.

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InvisibleKandyKid
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Re: Potency Project [Re: stinkfoot4]
    #11806792 - 01/11/10 08:43 AM (15 years, 8 days ago)

"potency is overrated if you grow your own... since you can just eat more. Potency matters most to people who purchase their magic."

Boy I remember when this would have made me furious. But its true thats why we are all cultivating we knew we would never afford the amount of magic some of us require to be so interesting...

2 points for all of us who only worry about potency as a hobby Kudos guys eat up.. Imagine if LSD was this easy to figure out things could get interesting!


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I would rather burn out than rust away::...
email me for medical mj seed trade will trade for spores, seeds of most sorts, and even small crafts. stoner42001@aol.com

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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: Potency Project [Re: libertaire]
    #11806805 - 01/11/10 08:46 AM (15 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

libertaire said:
That's what I'm saying though, with multispore, you're going to get 20 flushes that are different because that's the nature of the beast.



Exactly what I'm saying- we are in agreement.
I just happen to think you'll get a better result by averaging those 20 grows, and you don't.

What we need here is somebody who actually knows and understand statistics.
Most of us here have taken some-but-not-enough math, is my guess.
Me especially; I understand why I believe what I do, but I can't possibly prove it to anybody.


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InvisibleNecco
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Re: Potency Project [Re: libertaire]
    #11806807 - 01/11/10 08:47 AM (15 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

libertaire said:...with multispore, you're going to get 20 flushes that are different...



If that's true, then it's like testing a bunch of isolates :smile:

I don't know, obviously, but I don't believe we're going to find a very wide spread. In my limited experience, mushrooms that are similar are standard, and mushrooms that are very different are less common.

I don't think it is worth spending too much time arguing about this when we are so far from solving the first step, the extraction. It is easy to blend the powder of an entire dried flush to excellent homogeneity, and once we start getting duplicate readings from a single flush, then it will be time to worry about readings between flushes.

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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Doc_T]
    #11806833 - 01/11/10 08:55 AM (15 years, 8 days ago)

I never said 20 grows wouldn't be enough, if you could prove that all of the genetics that are possible for that strain are represented in those 20 grows.  How you would determine that is something I don't think anyone, even someone with a grasp of statistics, would be able to tell.  I think that actual process of doing so would be far too restrictive for our purposes, so we may just have to pick a number and hope for the best.  My guess would be 5 or 10.  But still, who has time to do 5-20 seperate grows at the same time, and then do the same thing for each strain...  That's why I was saying that isolation seems like a better option, but I do agree with you that it wouldn't be as true to real life.

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InvisibleNecco
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Re: Potency Project [Re: libertaire]
    #11806864 - 01/11/10 09:06 AM (15 years, 8 days ago)

So far people have been suggesting we use cakes, so doing 20 different multi-spore grows can be done easily in one shot. It will be simple to get quite a few different samples to test.

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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Necco]
    #11806875 - 01/11/10 09:10 AM (15 years, 8 days ago)

True!!  I don't know why I overlooked that, it's quite simple really.  Cakes definitely seem like the best option for this application.  So would you do a separate extraction for every separate cake, or would just adding them all together and averaging the results work?  You'd have to be sure that you take a precise amount from each cake if you did the latter.

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Offlinerizingfire
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Re: Potency Project [Re: libertaire]
    #11807015 - 01/11/10 09:57 AM (15 years, 8 days ago)

Albino PE is stronger than PE as well as more visual IMO. Everyone I have given it to thought they weren't coming back...never got that with regular PE...So APE is the strongest cubie, hands down.


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aka NHMI

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InvisibleNecco
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Re: Potency Project [Re: libertaire]
    #11807096 - 01/11/10 10:18 AM (15 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

libertaire said:So would you do a separate extraction for every separate cake, or would just adding them all together and averaging the results work?  You'd have to be sure that you take a precise amount from each cake if you did the latter.



It would be interesting to see results of each cake separate, and you wouldn't have to take a precise amount (just make sure to measure how much was used before each extraction). But it wouldn't hurt and would be a lot less work to do all the cakes in a single extraction.

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Offlineevildee125
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Necco]
    #11807172 - 01/11/10 10:42 AM (15 years, 8 days ago)

alright.. got a pr and tc syringe ready and im gonna make a b+ today.. ms to  brown rice cakes... gotta fetch me some vermiculite .. ill be testing whther b+ is as bunk as they say over a series of grows..


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Necco]
    #11810663 - 01/11/10 07:27 PM (15 years, 8 days ago)

Wow, I'm gone one day and this thread takes off!  :rocket:! !!

libertaire said: "So would you do a separate extraction for every separate cake, or would just adding them all together and averaging the results work?  You'd have to be sure that you take a precise amount from each cake if you did the latter."

I should of clarified about the cakes: 1 flush is from just one cake.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but each cake has its own "ecology" going on with the "sub-strains" of the P. cubenis it was inoculated, if there are any separate "sub-strains" competing for one another (frankly, I don't know the details on this).

Seems to me that the trickiest part will be collecting spores to distribute to growers who want to participate in the study. Does one grower grow a flush of PE (or the control) and then print all of the mushrooms, then send those spores to the other growers participating in the study? Would doing that "accurately" represent the variety and diversity of the possible outcomes of the PE population?

>> And, I remember reading somewhere before in this thread that since PE is a mutant strain: it doesn't always print spores. Will this cause significant complications to a wide-spread community-involved experiment with up to 100 people growing PE for the study (I'm being optimist).

Couple questions for any growers who make their own spore syringes: How many viable 10cc spore syringes can be made from a typical, average spore print deposition? When PE does drop spores, how much is deposited in comparsion to other ? 

For the source of the spores: Should we just all buy it from a spore vendor? Would that yield consistent results? Is there significant difference between PE spores from one commercial vendor compared to another?

Questions Remain...
~ LogicaL Chaos ~

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Re: Potency Project [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #11815672 - 01/12/10 03:04 PM (15 years, 7 days ago)

I like where this is going.  So just for clarification, you would take a set amount from each flush of each cake and do a separate extraction for each cake, or would you add all of the set amounts together to get an average?  That would be the most efficient and would really be no different than doing it for each cake I think.  If I'm wrong on that one, someone please tell me.  I'm a bit fuzzy on the individual sub-strains competing thing too, perhaps someone with some advanced knowledge can help us out.

The trading spores thing is a good idea, but if I were to be get started on this relatively soon, which I would like to, I think I would likely be using the PE genetics that I have in my stock, both of which came from users on here.  I'm not sure where those genetics originated from, but I think it would probably be advantageous to our project if people used a variety of genetics from a variety of places, since we're trying to get a good idea of what the general gene pool for each strain is like. 

Also another question that just came to mind.  How long does crystal psilocybin/psilocin last before it completely oxidizes away?  From the way people make a big deal about drying and preserving mushrooms, you would think that the stuff is pretty sensitive, so would extracting it compromise it's stability, thus making it hard to measure a precise amount from each sample?  Is there a way to make it more stable?

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OfflineNoOneKnowsHowToAct
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Re: Potency Project [Re: libertaire]
    #11815734 - 01/12/10 03:11 PM (15 years, 7 days ago)

Has anyone else actually tried extractions yet? I've been spending my spare time trying extractions. I figured it wouldn't even be worth it to chime in if there was no decent yet easy extraction technique to be used.

What I think I'm trying to do is convert psilocybin into psilocin and all psilocin into 4-AcO-DMT. Then, this is extracted in a fumarate form? and has a very long shelf-life.

At home I have a bunch of Acetic Acid (vinegar) that should have a bunch of psilocin in it. I need to basify the solution and then use a non-polar solvant to extract the goodies still (I think). I tried with lemon juice as the acid prior but was unable to get anything quantifiable.

There's also some other extraction techniques I saw this week I'll be trying this weekend.


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Edited by NoOneKnowsHowToAct (01/12/10 03:11 PM)

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Offlineevildee125
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Re: Potency Project [Re: NoOneKnowsHowToAct]
    #11815938 - 01/12/10 03:39 PM (15 years, 7 days ago)

link me up buddy..


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InvisibleNecco
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Re: Potency Project [Re: NoOneKnowsHowToAct]
    #11816145 - 01/12/10 04:04 PM (15 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

NoOneKnowsHowToAct said:
Has anyone else actually tried extractions yet?

At home I have a bunch of Acetic Acid (vinegar) that should have a bunch of psilocin in it. I need to basify the solution and then use a non-polar solvant to extract the goodies still (I think).




I've been looking and so far haven't found an extraction technique that appears to have the reproducibility and accuracy to be of use to our purpose. I'm not sure one exists yet (that is feasible for the masses).

You should use ammonia (preferably the janitorial kind from a hardware store, it is very concentrated). I believe it will be best to use as little vinegar as possible, and the rest water, in order to achieve pH4 for the conversion. I don't think it will require much vinegar to get to pH4 ( or ammonia to neutralize it to pH 8 afterwards). This way we would get to decide ourselves the volume of solution we work with. Maybe this doesn't matter, if you have an opinion I'm all ears.

Household vinegar (5%) is pH 2.8 or so. Even at 0.5% (1/10 household) the pH of aq. acetic acid is still ~3.3. Since we only need to get to 4, I think it won't take much, but I don't yet know how much the pH is affected by the fungal mass.

Finding a good substitute for Et2O for the non-polar extraction will be tricky, as always. What do you plan on using?

The most useful article I've found is here:
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/pdf/shroom.psilocin.extraction.pdf

By the way, I'm still checking out my colorimetry route. I plan on treating the aqueous extract with tyrosine oxidase to make the psilocin vulnerable to oxidation to its blue (quinone dimer?) form. If I can make all the psilocin oxidize at once in a stable manner, then I can use the "blueness" of the solution to determine the concentration. Perhaps I will try this tonight, but I may need an oxidizer and I'm unsure which one to try at this point.

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