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OrgoneConclusion
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'Proof' that spiritual teaching is essentially useless
#11800995 - 01/10/10 10:26 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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*Spin-off from the other thread and LooneyTunes' comment*
Let's say that Buddha and Jesus and others were real historical figures (not mere myth) and were truly enlightened in the classical spiritual sense. (No definition waggling in this thread, please!)
So both Jesus and Buddha had disiciples. If none of the disciples were able to 'get it', then Jesus and Buddha were deluded to think they could transmit real spiritual knowledge. If of the thousands of people they presented to, only two people 'got it' and carried on the tradition, then why is the world seemingly unchanged emotionally from thousands of years ago?
Using the power of two, almost the entire world 'should' be enlightened by now.
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deff
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Re: 'Proof' that spiritual teaching is essentially useless [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#11801029 - 01/10/10 10:31 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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teachings can often get watered down, plus 'getting it' requires a lot of dedication to the practice, not just a simple "a-ha!" moment upon hearing some verbal teachings
and as for why the world isn't "different".... what are you comparing it to? how would you know what the world would be like without these teachers having existed? the mere fact that the resulting religions have huge followings (buddhism in the hundreds of millions and christianity above a billion) show that it had some huge impact.
also, you have to keep in mind 'partial successes'. for some I'm sure certain practices brought results and improved conditions without leading to complete nirvana (or whatever)... but they can pick up somewhere close to where they left off in a subsequent life (and perhaps not in this realm).
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: 'Proof' that spiritual teaching is essentially useless [Re: deff]
#11801094 - 01/10/10 10:41 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
how would you know what the world would be like without these teachers having existed?
I wouldn't, but we do have indicators such as war, assault, theft, lying, adultery, substance abuse and so on. These are signs of emotional/spiritual immaturity and from historical records there seems to be no improvement over time.
Quote:
the mere fact that the resulting religions have huge followings (buddhism in the hundreds of millions and christianity above a billion) show that it had some huge impact.
Impact in what way other than cultural? Atheists are slightly more moral than theists according to large-scale studies.
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deCypher
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Re: 'Proof' that spiritual teaching is essentially useless [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#11801135 - 01/10/10 10:49 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Population growth is exponential though and I suspect the ratio of listeners who become enlightened to those who do not is very, very small.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: 'Proof' that spiritual teaching is essentially useless [Re: deCypher]
#11801165 - 01/10/10 10:54 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Jesus affects two and they affect two and so on.
2000 years = roughly 100 generations.
What is 2^100th power?
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deCypher
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Re: 'Proof' that spiritual teaching is essentially useless [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#11801174 - 01/10/10 10:56 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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That's still an extremely high rate of transmission though; since everyone isn't enlightened by now it makes sense to cut those figures back. Also I would suspect that not everyone is capable of enlightenment.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: 'Proof' that spiritual teaching is essentially useless [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#11801229 - 01/10/10 11:07 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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The last words of the buddha:
Quote:
All compounded things, all experiences (mental and physical), all phenomena by their very nature decay and die, and are disappointing: it is through being not-blind-drunk on, obsessed by, or infatuated with, the objects of the senses that you succeed in awakening, or obtain liberation.
or more simply:
Quote:
All things are disappointing, [it is] through vigilance [that] you succeed.
It would seem to me that spiritual teachings would also fit into this category of 'disappointing'- the only thing that can lead to enlightenment is your own vigilance. At best, spiritual teachings can only help us on our own journey through life- but if we go through life being 'blind-drunk on' them, we will only be disappointed.
Perhaps calling them useless is taking it too far? I for one will acknowledge a use for spiritual teachings in my life. Maybe, instead of useless, unnecessary would be a better word.
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deff
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Re: 'Proof' that spiritual teaching is essentially useless [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#11801268 - 01/10/10 11:14 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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there's a ton of factors to consider...
making the assumption that enlightenment is real and is the result of extensive practice (i.e. takes many years of dedicated practice, and even still one may fall short in a lifetime) - then a large factor is the willingness of people to devote the required time to it. I would guess that people are less dedicated and are more distracted by 'busier lifestyles' and technological comforts, etc...
this factor of lowered dedication is accompanied by the fact that teachings can easily become less pure and effective when they're disseminated (think of the game 'telephone' heh)... as teachings are passed down (at first orally and later in writings) they start to diverge from their true message... as do the interpretations that are taught to accompany them. if you look today for instance, there's thousands of "buddhism" books available - but a lot of them are highly watered down and seem to be more "feel good" books (I guess it sells?)
the vajrayana branch of buddhism particularly realized this fact - and that's why the school is the "secret mantra" school and places such enormous weight on the guru-student relationship. by making teachings secret and requiring initiation by a guru, this creates a much more direct lineage of teaching that is less likely to be prone to degradation. after all, if people who heard only 10% of teachings and misinterpreted them decided to teach - the collective pool of "buddhist teachings" now has a very poor gene being spread. this effect is especially amplified if the "faulty teachings" are more appealing to new students than the correct ones, which I think they often are today (simple feel-good books seem to outsell books which paint a much more realistic - and less appealing - view of existence and which demands more of the reader/student). this whole process can be seen as akin to genetic evolution, where faulty genes are introduced yet have an unfortunate genetic advantage.
buddhists foresaw this degradation of teachings... right back to siddhartha gautama himself. they called the current age the 'dharma ending age' - a period of time where teachings have degraded, students' dedication and capacity have degraded, and the world is more distracting making it harder to practice. here's a good link describing it: http://www.zhaxizhuoma.net/INTRODUCTION/dharmaendage.html
but, thanks to the monastic tradition, there are still very disciplined practitioners who keep pure dharma alive. I would think most monks either 'get it' or are very close to 'getting it' - and there's a lot of monasteries out there. this means if one is truly compelled to 'get it', they have an invaluable resource - a place with ideal conditions for practice with a community of dedicated practitioners who have been keeping the teachings alive and as pure as possible.
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appleorange
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Re: 'Proof' that spiritual teaching is essentially useless [Re: deff]
#11801676 - 01/10/10 12:27 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Enlightenment is not the same as making babies.
Just because a person may have 3 children, does not mean that each of those children will go off and produce another 3 children of their own.
As with a spiritual teacher, just because he may acknowledge 3 of his students as enlightened, that does not necessarily mean that those 3 students will each acknowledge another 3 students as enlightened either.
You should ask yourself, why doesn't everyone want to be an architect or a schoolbus driver? We all are drawn and attracted to different things in life.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: 'Proof' that spiritual teaching is essentially useless [Re: appleorange]
#11801696 - 01/10/10 12:30 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Amazingly poor (non)refutation.
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appleorange
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Re: 'Proof' that spiritual teaching is essentially useless [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#11801739 - 01/10/10 12:36 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Let me ask you this question. Which would you like to believe, that the Buddhas teachings were in fact authentic or they were just a load of crap?
Whatever your answer is, explain why.
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Icelander
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Re: 'Proof' that spiritual teaching is essentially useless [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#11801766 - 01/10/10 12:40 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: *Spin-off from the other thread and LooneyTunes' comment*
Let's say that Buddha and Jesus and others were real historical figures (not mere myth) and were truly enlightened in the classical spiritual sense. (No definition waggling in this thread, please!)
So both Jesus and Buddha had disiciples. If none of the disciples were able to 'get it', then Jesus and Buddha were deluded to think they could transmit real spiritual knowledge. If of the thousands of people they presented to, only two people 'got it' and carried on the tradition, then why is the world seemingly unchanged emotionally from thousands of years ago?
Using the power of two, almost the entire world 'should' be enlightened by now.
Well I mostly agree. I think enlightenment is too lofty a goal if our intention is to guide humanity into a more healthy relationship to itself. Advances in personal psychology are where it's at imo and difficult enough for most of us.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: 'Proof' that spiritual teaching is essentially useless [Re: appleorange]
#11801848 - 01/10/10 12:54 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
appleorange said: Let me ask you this question. Which would you like to believe, that the Buddhas teachings were in fact authentic or they were just a load of crap?
Whatever your answer is, explain why.
My point is very simple and clear and my personal opinion is unnecessary. What part of 'atheists' are slightly more moral than thesists and society is relatively unchanged by thousands of years of studying various scriptures are you challenging?
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appleorange
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Re: 'Proof' that spiritual teaching is essentially useless [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#11801924 - 01/10/10 01:08 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Your original post didn't say anything about Atheists and morality and I never responded to anything about that.
The only thing I challenged was whether or not you would like to believe that the Buddha's teachings actually carried some merit or they were in fact just a bunch of bull.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: 'Proof' that spiritual teaching is essentially useless [Re: appleorange]
#11801966 - 01/10/10 01:15 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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OK, great. Overlook every follow-up post I made because I didn't stuff everything into the first post.
Opinions are essentially worthless without substantiation.
For me to believe there is some merit, then some merit would have to be presented.
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appleorange
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Re: 'Proof' that spiritual teaching is essentially useless [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#11802016 - 01/10/10 01:22 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Dude, my first reply was to your original post and that's what I was responding too. You're not making any goddamn sense.
So, this thread can be summed up as, "I see no merit in the teachings of Christ or Buddha, therefore they are useless."
That's your opinion and are more than welcome to have it.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: 'Proof' that spiritual teaching is essentially useless [Re: appleorange]
#11802184 - 01/10/10 01:44 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Is it just my opinion that no one has walked on water nor healed the sick by miraculous means or that countries that follow Christ are not less bellicose?
Is it merely my opinion that humankind before and after such teachers has remainined relatively unchanged?
If you have a counter-argument then make it.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: 'Proof' that spiritual teaching is essentially useless [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#11802242 - 01/10/10 01:52 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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What is the use of spiritual teachings, according to you? I'm not sure if you mentioned this. Meaning, what can't they do, that they are supposed to do, making them useless.
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appleorange
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Re: 'Proof' that spiritual teaching is essentially useless [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#11802277 - 01/10/10 01:56 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Generally speaking, yes, humankind will always remain the same. Spirituality and other states of consciousness will always exist, but the majority of people will never pursue these things.
Does the herd negate or not validate the teachings of a few? I don't think so.
There will always be a number of individuals though who are searching for peace/understanding in this existence.
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elementswrath
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Re: 'Proof' that spiritual teaching is essentially useless [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#11802334 - 01/10/10 02:05 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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redgreenvines
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Re: 'Proof' that spiritual teaching is essentially useless [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#11802754 - 01/10/10 03:24 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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what kind of gefuckte math are you using? the population is constantly changing births and deaths. so even if you multiply by 2, you have to keep dividing and subtracting. also enlightenment is fragile. some teachers are lapse they forget and the math on them is negative
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Poid
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Re: 'Proof' that spiritual teaching is essentially useless [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#11803586 - 01/10/10 05:23 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: If of the thousands of people they presented to, only two people 'got it' and carried on the tradition, then why is the world seemingly unchanged emotionally from thousands of years ago?
Maybe most enlightened individuals refused to carry on the tradition, and instead kept it to/for themselves.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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LunarEclipse
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Re: 'Proof' that spiritual teaching is essentially useless [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#11803689 - 01/10/10 05:39 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: *Spin-off from the other thread and LooneyTunes' comment*
Let's say that Buddha and Jesus and others were real historical figures (not mere myth) and were truly enlightened in the classical spiritual sense. (No definition waggling in this thread, please!)
So both Jesus and Buddha had disiciples. If none of the disciples were able to 'get it', then Jesus and Buddha were deluded to think they could transmit real spiritual knowledge. If of the thousands of people they presented to, only two people 'got it' and carried on the tradition, then why is the world seemingly unchanged emotionally from thousands of years ago?
Using the power of two, almost the entire world 'should' be enlightened by now.
"Looney Tunes"?
Thats just rude and why the Hell should I try to enlighten you anyway you don't deserve it. There is no should there is what is and frankly you don't understand the NOW let alone the WAS.
So Be It.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: 'Proof' that spiritual teaching is essentially useless [Re: LunarEclipse]
#11804995 - 01/10/10 09:26 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Bugs Bunny is the best!
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