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 Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
 
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area 
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 Re: Does Freewill Exist?  [Re: DieCommie]
#11791213 - 01/08/10 05:26 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
How can you prove I do not have a choice in what to eat for dinner?
By reducing your choice to signals in your brain, which are functions of the atoms in your brain, which behave by their own set of rules and are not influenced by your body at large.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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 xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 20 hours, 8 minutes
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: DieCommie]
#11791219 - 01/08/10 05:26 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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"By reducing your choice to signals in your brain, which are functions of the atoms in your brain, which behave by their own set of rules and are not influenced by your body at large. "
They aren't influenced by your body because they are your body.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: xFrockx]
#11791220 - 01/08/10 05:26 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
...the "large things" are only the manifest image of particles, they aren't something different.
That means up the strata, the default notion in modern science.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: xFrockx]
#11791228 - 01/08/10 05:27 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
"By reducing your choice to signals in your brain, which are functions of the atoms in your brain, which behave by their own set of rules and are not influenced by your body at large. "
They aren't influenced by your body because they are your body.
Body at large.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: xFrockx]
#11791231 - 01/08/10 05:28 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
"Isn't it, like, extremely obvious that I am?"
Hold on let me ask my cat...
Of course I'll "let" you, it's not like you don't have your own free will or anything! 
Quote:
xFrockx said:
He's just staring at me, so I guess it isn't that obvious.
How does him staring at you make it not too obvious that free will exists?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 20 hours, 8 minutes
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: DieCommie]
#11791232 - 01/08/10 05:28 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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No, that's not what I mean. There's no strata, its just what we're looking at. The particles and the bodies are all the same thing looked at in different ways, one doesn't influence the other in either direction.
Edited by xFrockx (01/08/10 05:29 PM)
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 20 hours, 8 minutes
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Poid]
#11791247 - 01/08/10 05:29 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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His head smells like cereal
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: xFrockx]
#11791248 - 01/08/10 05:29 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
The particles and the bodies are all the same thing looked at in different ways, one doesn't influence the other in either direction.
Just saying it doesnt make it so. Tons of macroscopic phenomenon can be derived by microscopic phenomenon. The opposite has never happened.
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SlashOZ
:D
Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Poid]
#11791253 - 01/08/10 05:29 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
How can you prove I do not have a choice in what to eat for dinner?
By reducing your choice to signals in your brain, which are functions of the atoms in your brain, which behave by their own set of rules and are not influenced by your body at large.
Being a result of causal chains doesn't mean I am a slave to them. I can choose to create my own causal chains. The feeling of regret seems to point to the ability to choose, ie free will. Why would we regret something unless it could have been different? It everything was deterministic why do we worry? Shouldn't we just be complacent because everything is determined?
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"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: xFrockx]
#11791255 - 01/08/10 05:30 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
His head smells like cereal
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Quote:
It everything was deterministic why do we worry?
Because we have no choice to do otherwise! 
Also, I wouldn't conflate a lack of free will with determinism. There can be a lack of free will and a lack of determinism.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: SlashOZ]
#11791273 - 01/08/10 05:32 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
SlashOZ said:
Shouldn't we just be complacent because everything is determined?
What if it was determined that you shall have an agonizing life until the day you die? Would you feel complacent about that?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 20 hours, 8 minutes
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: DieCommie]
#11791280 - 01/08/10 05:33 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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"Just saying it doesnt make it so. Tons of macroscopic phenomenon can be derived by microscopic phenomenon. The opposite has never happened. "
I'm not just saying it. This is the basic problem of causation, or induction. The burden is on you to say that there is a necessary connection between either if you think a relationship is really possible. I'm telling you though, you misunderstand particle physics (not a rare thing), and I'm trying to save you some time.
I know what you mean though, and what you're talking about does happen, but its still not particles influencing "large stuff" its just what happens when we view a process that becomes visible to the naked eye over time.
Edited by xFrockx (01/08/10 05:35 PM)
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SlashOZ
:D
Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: DieCommie]
#11791281 - 01/08/10 05:33 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
It everything was deterministic why do we worry?
Because we have no choice to do otherwise!
Also, I wouldn't conflate a lack of free will with determinism. There can be a lack of free will and a lack of determinism.
So all reaction is random. Gravity is random?
--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: SlashOZ]
#11791289 - 01/08/10 05:33 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Randomness is relative.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 20 hours, 8 minutes
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: SlashOZ]
#11791291 - 01/08/10 05:34 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Gravity is a concept, as is random.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: SlashOZ]
#11791575 - 01/08/10 06:11 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
I'm telling you though, you misunderstand particle physics (not a rare thing), and I'm trying to save you some time.
What does this have to do with particle physics? 
Quote:
SlashOZ said:
So all reaction is random. Gravity is random?
All reaction? Interactions are random, to an extent, and determinism only seems to emerge when you look at macroscopic systems.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: DieCommie]
#11791600 - 01/08/10 06:15 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
How so? In some way uncertainty seems to fly in the face of free will. If I will my finger to move, uncertainty may conspire against that and it will not move despite my will.
Right; but at the same time if the effects are fully determined from the causes then it's hard to see how free will can enter the equation. 
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: deCypher]
#11791609 - 01/08/10 06:16 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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One's will would have to be the cause. And then the effect is determined from that.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: DieCommie]
#11791765 - 01/08/10 06:38 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yeah but what is this "will" you speak of? If we're looking at the human organism in terms of sensory inputs and behavioral outputs and we learn that our behavior (the effects) is fully determined from our sensory inputs (the causes), then how can we have any say or freedom of will in the matter?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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