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Invisibleappleorange
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Does Freewill Exist?
    #11790385 - 01/08/10 05:22 PM (12 years, 15 days ago)

If lightning strikes a tree, it's likely it will catch fire. The fire is the effect and the cause was lightning. It's also likely that trees surrounding it will also catch fire. The first fire which was initally an effect now becomes a cause and the new effect is other trees burning.

For every effect there is a cause. What is taking place in this thread and the words which I am writing at this moment were set in place by causes which occured long before I was born. One could even argue that this post was predetermined to happen with the original and very first cause in time. The first cause setting off a chain which inevitably resulted in this post.

For a freewill to exist, it would have to exist independently of the chain of cause and effect. How can something exist independently of conditions and causes? If one does believe in a freewill, something must create it. At what point does the freewill come into existence? How can it exist independently of the cause which created it? Is our freewill formed 1 week after our conception? 2 months?

If a man robs a liquor store, can you argue that it was possible for him to not have done so? How could he have behaved any other way?

Everyone who replies to this post. I want you to ask yourselves if you could have replied any other way. If you could, tell me how?


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11790423 - 01/08/10 05:31 PM (12 years, 15 days ago)

The appearance of free will seems pretty damn convincing and I pragmatically act as if I possess it, but beyond that I cannot definitively conclude one way or the other as to its existence.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #11790452 - 01/08/10 05:36 PM (12 years, 15 days ago)

i am forced to post this right now, instigated by forces beyond me!


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


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Invisibleappleorange
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #11790459 - 01/08/10 05:38 PM (12 years, 15 days ago)

It does seem pretty damn convincing that it is real, I'll admit.

A plant obviously has no freewill, everything a plant does is a series of causes and effects. It rains, it grows. It freezes, it may die.

By assuming that we have a freewill or soul we are basically saying that the laws of the universe do not apply to us. We are somehow special. Everything else may be dependent upon causes and conditions, but we have the ability to choose and do as we please.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11790467 - 01/08/10 05:39 PM (12 years, 15 days ago)

The existence of uncertainty at the quantum level leaves some wiggle room in the iron clad fist of determinism, IMO.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #11790971 - 01/08/10 06:57 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Is there even any reasonable argument against the existence of free will? :undecided:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Poid]
    #11790997 - 01/08/10 07:01 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

"Does Freewill Exist? "

I don't know.

"Is there even any reasonable argument against the existence of free will?"

Is there any reasonable argument for it?  Are there any completely reasonable arguments, in general?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: xFrockx]
    #11791021 - 01/08/10 07:03 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Is there any reasonable argument for it?


Why should there need to be? It seems like a given to me that I have free will, just like it's a given to me that I am conscious.



Quote:

xFrockx said:
Are there any completely reasonable arguments, in general?


Yes, do you want an example?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11791059 - 01/08/10 07:09 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Humans can control fire. We can extinguish a fire and bring one to life. We have matches, lighters, bombs, etc. It seems like this ability shows free will or a very good ability to control causal sequences.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Poid]
    #11791071 - 01/08/10 07:11 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

"Why should there need to be? It seems like a given to me that I have free will, just like it's a given to me that I am conscious."

What if I said it were given to me that life was deterministic. Would you consider that reasonable justification?

"Yes, do you want an example? "

Well, it depends on what we count as reasonable, in certain contexts yes, in certain contexts no.  :shrug:


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #11791085 - 01/08/10 07:12 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Our ability to do all this could be based on natural forces, and not on an inner will.  For that matter, our entire sense of self could be a sort of naturally-produced illusion.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #11791091 - 01/08/10 07:13 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
The existence of uncertainty at the quantum level leaves some wiggle room in the iron clad fist of determinism, IMO.




How so?  In some way uncertainty seems to fly in the face of free will.  If I will my finger to move, uncertainty may conspire against that and it will not move despite my will.

I see free will as dependent not on uncertainty, but on the direction of causality.  If all causality comes from the bottom up (from particles to atoms to cells and so on) then there is no room for free will.  If causality can go from the top down then there is room for free will.  Top down causality hasn't been shown to be reality, but it is used as a useful construct in many fields (notably biology).  Still, the trend is the opposite, more and more phenomenon are being reduced to their basic constituents with causal chains that link macroscopic behavior to microscopic behavior.  The opposite reduction, tying microscopic effects to macroscopic causes has never been done.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: xFrockx]
    #11791092 - 01/08/10 07:13 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Why should there need to be? It seems like a given to me that I have free will, just like it's a given to me that I am conscious."

What if I said it were given to me that life was deterministic. Would you consider that reasonable justification?


No because I can see that you are doing things, and I can't see anything besides you doing those things; if I saw something else "pulling your strings", then maybe I'd think that you have a point.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: DieCommie]
    #11791106 - 01/08/10 07:14 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
I see free will as dependent not on uncertainty, but on the direction of causality.  If all causality comes from the bottom up (from particles to atoms to cells and so on) then there is no room for free will.


Why not? We would still be able to make choices regardless of the direction of causality...


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Poid]
    #11791169 - 01/08/10 07:21 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Well I can't tell you're pulling your own strings either.  I don't even really know what "you" is.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: xFrockx]
    #11791170 - 01/08/10 07:22 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Our ability to do all this could be based on natural forces, and not on an inner will.  For that matter, our entire sense of self could be a sort of naturally-produced illusion.




What purpose does a naturally produced illusion of free will serve? Why have it at all if it doesn't exist? If free will doesn't exist why do we have the notion of free will? To me it seems we have the idea of free will because it is real. I could just as easily to one thing as another. Committing murder is a constant option everyone has. We choose to take mushrooms. The will responds to external forces but it is not directed by external forces. The will is internal and can be redirected and can come under internal conflict. Do I do x or y, etc? The will can direct or bring into existence causal chains. We can choose to have kids and having a kid creates a causal chain. Choosing to shoot someone creates a causal chain. Choosing to eat steak instead of spaghetti creates a unique causal chain. How can you prove I do not have a choice in what to eat for dinner?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: xFrockx]
    #11791188 - 01/08/10 07:23 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Well I can't tell you're pulling your own strings either.  I don't even really know what "you" is.


I am a member of the species Homo sapiens; how can you not tell that I'm pulling my own strings? Isn't it, like, extremely obvious that I am? :confused2:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: xFrockx]
    #11791196 - 01/08/10 07:24 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

"I see free will as dependent not on uncertainty, but on the direction of causality.  If all causality comes from the bottom up (from particles to atoms to cells and so on) then there is no room for free will."

I think this is based on a misunderstanding of what reductionism means.  Particles and "large stuff" in reality all exists on the same causal level.  Interactivity doesn't occur down the strata, or up the strata, because the "large things" are only the manifest image of particles, they aren't something different.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #11791202 - 01/08/10 07:25 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

How can you prove I do not have a choice in what to eat for dinner?




By reducing your choice to signals in your brain, which are functions of the atoms in your brain, which behave by their own set of rules and are not influenced by your body at large.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Poid]
    #11791208 - 01/08/10 07:25 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

"Isn't it, like, extremely obvious that I am?"

Hold on let me ask my cat...


He's just staring at me, so I guess it isn't that obvious.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: DieCommie]
    #11791213 - 01/08/10 07:26 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

How can you prove I do not have a choice in what to eat for dinner?




By reducing your choice to signals in your brain, which are functions of the atoms in your brain, which behave by their own set of rules and are not influenced by your body at large.




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: DieCommie]
    #11791219 - 01/08/10 07:26 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

"By reducing your choice to signals in your brain, which are functions of the atoms in your brain, which behave by their own set of rules and are not influenced by your body at large. "

They aren't influenced by your body because they are your body.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: xFrockx]
    #11791220 - 01/08/10 07:26 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
...the "large things" are only the manifest image of particles, they aren't something different.




That means up the strata, the default notion in modern science.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: xFrockx]
    #11791228 - 01/08/10 07:27 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"By reducing your choice to signals in your brain, which are functions of the atoms in your brain, which behave by their own set of rules and are not influenced by your body at large. "

They aren't influenced by your body because they are your body.




Body at large.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: xFrockx]
    #11791231 - 01/08/10 07:28 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Isn't it, like, extremely obvious that I am?"

Hold on let me ask my cat...


Of course I'll "let" you, it's not like you don't have your own free will or anything! :tongue2:



Quote:

xFrockx said:
He's just staring at me, so I guess it isn't that obvious.


How does him staring at you make it not too obvious that free will exists?

:beercat:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: DieCommie]
    #11791232 - 01/08/10 07:28 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

No, that's not what I mean.  There's no strata, its just what we're looking at.  The particles and the bodies are all the same thing looked at in different ways, one doesn't influence the other in either direction.


Edited by xFrockx (01/08/10 07:29 PM)


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Poid]
    #11791247 - 01/08/10 07:29 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

His head smells like cereal


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: xFrockx]
    #11791248 - 01/08/10 07:29 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
The particles and the bodies are all the same thing looked at in different ways, one doesn't influence the other in either direction.




Just saying it doesnt make it so.  Tons of macroscopic phenomenon can be derived by microscopic phenomenon.  The opposite has never happened.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Poid]
    #11791253 - 01/08/10 07:29 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

How can you prove I do not have a choice in what to eat for dinner?




By reducing your choice to signals in your brain, which are functions of the atoms in your brain, which behave by their own set of rules and are not influenced by your body at large.







Being a result of causal chains doesn't mean I am a slave to them. I can choose to create my own causal chains. The feeling of regret seems to point to the ability to choose, ie free will. Why would we regret something unless it could have been different? It everything was deterministic why do we worry? Shouldn't we just be complacent because everything is determined?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: xFrockx]
    #11791255 - 01/08/10 07:30 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
His head smells like cereal



:dudewtf:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11791269 - 01/08/10 07:31 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

It everything was deterministic why do we worry?




Because we have no choice to do otherwise!  :flowstone:

Also, I wouldn't conflate a lack of free will with determinism.  There can be a lack of free will and a lack of determinism.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #11791273 - 01/08/10 07:32 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Shouldn't we just be complacent because everything is determined?


What if it was determined that you shall have an agonizing life until the day you die? Would you feel complacent about that?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: DieCommie]
    #11791280 - 01/08/10 07:33 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

"Just saying it doesnt make it so.  Tons of macroscopic phenomenon can be derived by microscopic phenomenon.  The opposite has never happened. "

I'm not just saying it.  This is the basic problem of causation, or induction.  The burden is on you to say that there is a necessary connection between either if you think a relationship is really possible.  I'm telling you though, you misunderstand particle physics (not a rare thing), and I'm trying to save you some time.

I know what you mean though, and what you're talking about does happen, but its still not particles influencing "large stuff" its just what happens when we view a process that becomes visible to the naked eye over time.


Edited by xFrockx (01/08/10 07:35 PM)


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: DieCommie]
    #11791281 - 01/08/10 07:33 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

It everything was deterministic why do we worry?




Because we have no choice to do otherwise!  :flowstone:

Also, I wouldn't conflate a lack of free will with determinism.  There can be a lack of free will and a lack of determinism.




So all reaction is random. Gravity is random?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
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"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #11791289 - 01/08/10 07:33 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Randomness is relative.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #11791291 - 01/08/10 07:34 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Gravity is a concept, as is random.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #11791575 - 01/08/10 08:11 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
I'm telling you though, you misunderstand particle physics (not a rare thing), and I'm trying to save you some time.





What does this have to do with particle physics? :lol:




Quote:

SlashOZ said:
So all reaction is random. Gravity is random?




All reaction?  Interactions are random, to an extent, and determinism only seems to emerge when you look at macroscopic systems.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: DieCommie]
    #11791600 - 01/08/10 08:15 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
How so?  In some way uncertainty seems to fly in the face of free will.  If I will my finger to move, uncertainty may conspire against that and it will not move despite my will.




Right; but at the same time if the effects are fully determined from the causes then it's hard to see how free will can enter the equation.  :confused2:


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #11791609 - 01/08/10 08:16 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

One's will would have to be the cause.  And then the effect is determined from that.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: DieCommie]
    #11791765 - 01/08/10 08:38 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Yeah but what is this "will" you speak of?  If we're looking at the human organism in terms of sensory inputs and behavioral outputs and we learn that our behavior (the effects) is fully determined from our sensory inputs (the causes), then how can we have any say or freedom of will in the matter?


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #11791784 - 01/08/10 08:41 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

When one puts their hand on a hot stove, they feel heat (sensory input); one will most likely instantly take their hand off of it (behavioral output), but it's possible that one may choose to keep their hand on it, no?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Poid]
    #11791790 - 01/08/10 08:42 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

It seems that way but it could be that your "choice" to keep your hand on it was instead biochemically determined by your memories and personality.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #11791800 - 01/08/10 08:44 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Even if it was just (biochemically) determined by the personality, how does this negate free will?  The personality made the determination...


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Poid]
    #11791809 - 01/08/10 08:45 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

It negates free will because it obviously wasn't a free choice in that hypothetical scenario; there was no possibility of you doing anything differently.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #11791830 - 01/08/10 08:49 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

I can agree with that, but it almost seems paradoxical to me that a personality can make choices, even if every single "choice" that a personality makes at any given moment was the only possible one.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #11791834 - 01/08/10 08:49 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Quote:

xFrockx said:
Our ability to do all this could be based on natural forces, and not on an inner will.  For that matter, our entire sense of self could be a sort of naturally-produced illusion.




What purpose does a naturally produced illusion of free will serve? Why have it at all if it doesn't exist? If free will doesn't exist why do we have the notion of free will? To me it seems we have the idea of free will because it is real. I could just as easily to one thing as another. Committing murder is a constant option everyone has. We choose to take mushrooms. The will responds to external forces but it is not directed by external forces. The will is internal and can be redirected and can come under internal conflict. Do I do x or y, etc? The will can direct or bring into existence causal chains. We can choose to have kids and having a kid creates a causal chain. Choosing to shoot someone creates a causal chain. Choosing to eat steak instead of spaghetti creates a unique causal chain. How can you prove I do not have a choice in what to eat for dinner?




We used to also believe the world was flat too, should we say that because we believed the world was flat it just had to be?

A freewill is the same as a soul. When did you acquire your soul? Do unfertilized eggs have souls? Does a 1 day old embryo have freewill? When do we acquire this freewill?

We obviously had no say or choice in being born, why do we assume that we have control now?


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Poid]
    #11791843 - 01/08/10 08:50 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
I can agree with that, but it almost seems paradoxical to me that a personality can make choices, even if every single "choice" that a personality makes at any given moment was the only possible one.




I think the existence of a free choice necessarily requires that there be more than one possible result.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11791848 - 01/08/10 08:51 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

appleorange said:
A freewill is the same as a soul. When did you acquire your soul? Do unfertilized eggs have souls?


When will you provide undeniable proof of the existence of souls?



Quote:

appleorange said:
Does a 1 day old embryo have freewill? When do we acquire this freewill?


Presumably when our brain develops the capacity to do so.



Quote:

appleorange said:
We obviously had no say or choice in being born, why do we assume that we have control now?


Because we didn't exist before we were born.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (01/08/10 10:36 PM)


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #11791857 - 01/08/10 08:53 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Poid said:
I can agree with that, but it almost seems paradoxical to me that a personality can make choices, even if every single "choice" that a personality makes at any given moment was the only possible one.




I think the existence of a free choice necessarily requires that there be more than one possible result.


That's true, but what is it called when a personality is thinking about different choices to choose from during any given point in time, and then finally makes up its mind and decides which choice is the best? If this isn't free will, then what is it? :undecided:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Poid]
    #11791877 - 01/08/10 08:56 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Was the selection of that best choice inevitable given the pre-existing conditions?  If so, then that hardly sounds like free will.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #11791892 - 01/08/10 08:58 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

How would/could it be determined that the selection of that best choice was inevitable given the pre-existing conditions? What if it wasn't?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Poid]
    #11791910 - 01/08/10 09:02 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

If it wasn't inevitable then it looks like we'd have free will.  As far as determining whether or not it's inevitable, that's the whole crux of the problem.  :lol:


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Poid]
    #11791920 - 01/08/10 09:03 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

When will you provide undeniable proof of the existence of souls.





I'm not trying to, i'm trying to prove the opposite.

Quote:

Presumably when our brain develops the capacity to do so.




When do we officially acquire a brain? If an embryo has only 10% of his brain developed, is it considered that he now has a brain? At what precise moment and where does freewill jump into his brain?

Quote:

Because we didn't exist before we were born.




We were never born and we will never die. If I were to die in the woods tomorrow, I would slowly decay. The same matter that I am comprised of now would be the same matter that would eventually comprise the soil around me. A flower that were to grow in the spring would draw nutrients from the soil. I would be a flower essentially.

No new matter is introduced into the universe and no matter disappears from the universe. The same energy/matter is constantly being recycled into different forms.

These forms are in itself an illusion too. While everything may seem distinct from another, the flower seperate from the soil, or the moon from the sun. Everything is essentially one unitary thing.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11791955 - 01/08/10 09:09 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
As far as determining whether or not it's inevitable, that's the whole crux of the problem.  :lol:


Would it even be possible to determine whether or not it's inevitable? If not, then I guess we will never know if free will exists or not...:crying:



Quote:

appleorange said:
Quote:

Presumably when our brain develops the capacity to do so.



At what precise moment and where does freewill jump into his brain?


Quote:

Presumably when our brain develops the capacity to do so.



This is only assuming that free will exists, though. :shrug:



Quote:

appleorange said:
Quote:

Because we didn't exist before we were born.




We were never born and we will never die.


lol



Quote:

appleorange said:
If I were to die in the woods tomorrow, I would slowly decay. The same matter that I am comprised of now would be the same matter that would eventually comprise the soil around me.


Your decaying body could not be considered to be alive.



Quote:

appleorange said:
A flower that were to grow in the spring would draw nutrients from the soil. I would be a flower essentially.


No you wouldn't, the Homo sapiens specimen which was you would be non-existent; nutrients from the soil does not = a Homo sapiens specimen.



Quote:

appleorange said:
No new matter is introduced into the universe and no matter disappears from the universe. The same energy/matter is constantly being recycled into different forms.


You said it yourself, different forms.



Quote:

appleorange said:
These forms are in itself an illusion too.


How so?



Quote:

appleorange said:
Everything is essentially one unitary thing.


No, but each constituent is part of the whole; a brick in the wall is not a brick wall. :shrug2:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Poid]
    #11792014 - 01/08/10 09:20 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Poid,

Pretend we have a chair and that chair is slowly being nibbled on by termites. At what precise moment in time can you definitively say "STOP! IF YOU EAT ONE MORE FUCKING GRAIN OF THAT CHAIR, IT WILL NO LONGER BE A CHAIR!"

Form is an illusion and so is the idea that some things are alive and some things are not. What constitutes a living thing? Is the wind a living thing? Why or why not?

We are comprised of atoms, but you would not consider atoms to be a living thing. But we are though? The very thing that is the building blocks of a living thing is somehow not a living thing?


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11792036 - 01/08/10 09:23 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Sorry for being cheesy, but this video feels appropiate for the thread :awesome:



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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11792074 - 01/08/10 09:28 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

appleorange said:
Pretend we have a chair and that chair is slowly being nibbled on by termites. At what precise moment in time can you definitively say "STOP! IF YOU EAT ONE MORE FUCKING GRAIN OF THAT CHAIR, IT WILL NO LONGER BE A CHAIR!"


Precisely at the point that it could no longer be capable of being used for sitting, as a chair is a device whose purpose is to be sat on; also, as it's being eaten, it could be considered a part of a chair.



Quote:

appleorange said:
Form is an illusion and so is the idea that some things are alive and some things are not.


What evidence are you basing this assertion on?



Quote:

appleorange said:
What constitutes a living thing?


From Life - Wikipedia:
Quote:

It is still a challenge for scientists and philosophers to define life in unequivocal terms. Any definition must be sufficiently broad to encompass all life with which we are familiar, and it should be sufficiently general that, with it, scientists would not miss life that may be fundamentally different from earthly life.

Biology
Since there is no unequivocal definition of life, the current understanding is descriptive, where life is a 'characteristic' of organisms that exhibit all or most of the following phenomena:

Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, electrolyte concentration or sweating to reduce temperature.
Organization: Being structurally composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.

Metabolism: Transformation of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.

Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of anabolism than catabolism. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter.

Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.

Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism) and by chemotaxis.

Reproduction: The ability to produce new individual organisms, either asexually from a single parent organism, or sexually from two parent organisms.



Proposed
To reflect the minimum phenomena required, some have proposed other biological definitions of life:
Living things are systems that tend to respond to changes in their environment, and inside themselves, in such a way as to promote their own continuation.
A network of inferior negative feedbacks (regulatory mechanisms) subordinated to a superior positive feedback (potential of expansion, reproduction).
A systemic definition of life is that living things are self-organizing and autopoietic (self-producing). Variations of this definition include Stuart Kauffman's definition as an autonomous agent or a multi-agent system capable of reproducing itself or themselves, and of completing at least one thermodynamic work cycle.
Life is a self-sustained chemical system capable of undergoing Darwinian evolution.


Viruses
Viruses are most often considered replicators rather than forms of life. They have been described as "organisms at the edge of life", since they possess genes, evolve by natural selection, and replicate by creating multiple copies of themselves through self-assembly. However, viruses do not metabolise and require a host cell to make new products. Virus self-assembly within host cells has implications for the study of the origin of life, as it may support the hypothesis that life could have started as self-assembling organic molecules.


Biophysics
Biophysicists have also commented on the nature and qualities of life forms—notably that they function on negative entropy. In more detail, according to physicists such as John Bernal, Erwin Schrödinger, Eugene Wigner, and John Avery, life is a member of the class of phenomena which are open or continuous systems able to decrease their internal entropy at the expense of substances or free energy taken in from the environment and subsequently rejected in a degraded form (see: entropy and life).


Living systems theories
In order to answer the question ‘What is life?’, some scientists have recently proposed that a general Living systems theory is required. Such general theory, arising out of the ecological and biological sciences, attempts to map general principles for how all living systems work. Instead of examining phenomena by attempting to break things down into component parts, a general living systems theory explores phenomena in terms of dynamic patterns of the relationships of organisms with their environment.


Gaia hypothesis
The idea that the Earth is alive is probably as old as humankind, but the first public expression of it as a fact of science was by a Scottish scientist, James Hutton. In 1785 he stated that the Earth was a superorganism and that its proper study should be physiology. Hutton is rightly remembered as the father of geology, but his idea of a living Earth was forgotten in the intense reductionism of the nineteenth century. The Gaia hypothesis, originally proposed in the 1960s by scientist James Lovelock, explores the idea that the life on Earth functions as a single organism which actually defines and maintains environmental conditions necessary for its survival.


Nonfractionability
Robert Rosen (1991) built on the assumption that the explanatory powers of the mechanistic worldview cannot help understand the realm of living systems. One of several important clarifications he made was to define a system component as "a unit of organization; a part with a function, i.e., a definite relation between part and whole." From this and other starting concepts, he developed a "relational theory of systems" that attempts to explain the special properties of life. Specifically, he identified the "nonfractionability of components in an organism" as the fundamental difference between living systems and 'biological machines.'


Life as a property of ecosystems
A systems view of life treats environmental fluxes and biological fluxes together as a "reciprocity of influence", and a reciprocal relation with environment is arguably as important for understanding life as it is for understanding ecosystems. As Harold J. Morowitz (1992) explains it, life is a property of an ecological system rather than a single organism or species. He argues that an ecosystemic definition of life is preferable to a strictly biochemical or physical one. Robert Ulanowicz (2009) also highlights mutualism as the key to understand the systemic, order-generating behavior of life and ecosystems.






Quote:

appleorange said:
Is the wind a living thing? Why or why not?


It isn't because it doesn't fit the current definition of the term 'life'.



Quote:

appleorange said:
We are comprised of atoms, but you would not consider atoms to be a living thing.


A brick wall is comprised of bricks, but neither individual brick by itself is a brick wall.



Quote:

appleorange said:
But we are though? The very thing that is the building blocks of a living thing is somehow not a living thing?


Yes.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11792077 - 01/08/10 09:28 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Must... resist... adding 2 cents...


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11792086 - 01/08/10 09:30 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Free will vs Predetermination

Check out this video


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11792102 - 01/08/10 09:32 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Your wiki article proved what I was getting at:

Quote:

It is still a challenge for scientists and philosophers to define life in unequivocal terms.




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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11792103 - 01/08/10 09:32 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Must... resist... adding 2 cents...


You have no choice. :satansmoking:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11792110 - 01/08/10 09:33 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

appleorange said:
Your wiki article proved what I was getting at:

Quote:

It is still a challenge for scientists and philosophers to define life in unequivocal terms.





But still, the term 'life' has it's own definition(s), and whatever doesn't fit that (those) definition(s) cannot, by definition, be considered to be alive.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: ImaginingEmotions]
    #11792114 - 01/08/10 09:34 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Check out this video




No! :razz:


--------------------


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11792135 - 01/08/10 09:37 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

The article says it's difficult to define what life is Poid.

It also reinforces the whole cause and effect argument with this:

Quote:

A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism) and by chemotaxis.




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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11792150 - 01/08/10 09:39 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

appleorange said:
The article says it's difficult to define what life is Poid.


Does difficult = impossible? Scientist have tried, and are trying their best to define what life is, so whatever doesn't fit the current definition in any given point in time cannot, by definition, be considered to be alive; is this so hard to understand?



Quote:

appleorange said:
It also reinforces the whole cause and effect argument with this:

Quote:

A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism) and by chemotaxis.





What are you even saying here? What is "it", and how does it reinforce the whole cause and effect argument?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Poid]
    #11792190 - 01/08/10 09:46 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Difficult can equal impossible. Scientists can not arrive at a definition of what life is.

If you asked me to hold my breath for 1 hour, it would be difficult and later we would learn impossible.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11792203 - 01/08/10 09:48 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

appleorange said:
Difficult can equal impossible.


Key word 'can'.



Quote:

appleorange said:
Scientists can not arrive at a definition of what life is.


Maybe not a complete definition, but a definition nonetheless.



Quote:

appleorange said:
If you asked me to hold my breath for 1 hour, it would be difficult and later we would learn impossible.


Sure, that's an example of something that is probably impossible. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Poid]
    #11792259 - 01/08/10 09:55 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

free will exists becuase i chose to reply to this post. where as i couldve just moved on without bothering to explain the little things to you :smile: just like you choose your beverage and so on.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Poid]
    #11792278 - 01/08/10 09:59 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

I think I'm at a brick wall here Ploid.

My bottom line is there is no such thing as "living" or "non-living", we have no freewill, the universe is one unitary thing, we were never born and will never die, and it's impossible to hold your breath for 1 hour.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11792389 - 01/08/10 10:18 PM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

appleorange said:
I think I'm at a brick wall here Ploid.

My bottom line is there is no such thing as "living" or "non-living", we have no freewill, the universe is one unitary thing, we were never born and will never die...


I am aware that this is your bottom line, but you have provided absolutely no evidence to support any of those assertions, so your bottom line means crap. :holyshit:




Quote:

appleorange said:
...and it's impossible to hold your breath for 1 hour.


This is just about the only true thing you said. :thumbup:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlineidmtrance
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11806890 - 01/11/10 11:18 AM (12 years, 12 days ago)

"For a freewill to exist, it would have to exist independently of the chain of cause and effect. "

This statement presumes that time is linear.

"How can something exist independently of conditions and causes? "

Free will exists outside of conitions and causes because the nature of it's being is not physical, but it is rather a process of awareness. Also, this presupposition of the nature of time is the main source of your questions.

"If one does believe in a freewill, something must create it. "

Why must something create something else? This is where language fails quite often, if free will is beyond causality, then it cannot be 'created'.  Creation also implies that it exists in some sense, and didn't before. 

"At what point does the freewill come into existence? "

There is no point in which it comes into existence, nor does it ever leave existence.

"How can it exist independently of the cause which created it? Is our freewill formed 1 week after our conception? 2 months?

If a man robs a liquor store, can you argue that it was possible for him to not have done so? How could he have behaved any other way? "

Time is not linear, but rather a process, that is to say - it is a continuum.  All moments and 'parts' of time are really only in this moment.  Are we not the result of what you would say is the effect and cause of all previous human enterprise and action?

A convincing argument for free will is our autonomy.  We have the ability to rationalize and use completely abstract thought to help us make apparently free choices.  This rationality, by itself, is contingent on the idea of a free will. One cannot rationalize without being free. 

Even further, one cannot be conscious, or fully aware without being 'free'.  Freedom also does not come in and out of existence because it is not a material phenomenon, but rather it is a contingent quality of our autonomy.  It's existence is neither real or 'fake' but rather, a manifestation (a quality, if you will) of our  developing consciousness.

Our awareness is cultivated through freedom. We 'enslave' ourselves when we are not fully aware, and this manifests itself in delusions, anxiety, depression, addiction and various other 'disorders'. 

namaste


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: idmtrance]
    #11837518 - 01/15/10 09:33 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

Let the plant show you. A few experiences on salvia and you'll be shown that there isnt. The thought of it is great but in the end it's all predestined.. it's very frustrating.. but on a lighter note the fun part is to be able to comprehed a concept like that and think about it, and  try to outwit it.. lol impossible.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: idmtrance]
    #11837519 - 01/15/10 09:33 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

Let the plant show you. A few experiences on salvia and you'll be shown that there isnt. The thought of it is great but in the end it's all predestined.. it's very frustrating.. but on a lighter note the fun part is to be able to comprehed a concept like that and think about it, and  try to outwit it.. lol impossible. Whatever an individual is doing and myself is what is meant to be done, it's all part of the experience(process)


Edited by wnfakind (01/15/10 09:34 PM)


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OfflineSventington
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: wnfakind]
    #11841277 - 01/16/10 03:12 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

As fated, I have returned! My computer was fated to break and then to arrive late, and now I am fated to ask what has happened in here since, has Poid become an admin and Orgone become a born again Christian?


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Sventington]
    #11841376 - 01/16/10 03:34 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

No, the only thing that happened was nobody noticed you gone.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSventington
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Icelander]
    #11841383 - 01/16/10 03:36 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

:crying:


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Sventington]
    #11841441 - 01/16/10 03:48 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

If you don't start posting with some content we might not notice you here. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSventington
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Icelander]
    #11841465 - 01/16/10 03:54 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

But I'm perpetually undecided on what I believe beyond very basic things. I WILL RETURN TO THE SHADOWS AND BE SILENT FOR NOW.

Good day sir.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Sventington]
    #11841471 - 01/16/10 03:55 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

Good day.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Sventington]
    #11841477 - 01/16/10 03:56 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

Good, now kick out the basic things and you'll be left with reality/truth.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: wnfakind]
    #11843164 - 01/16/10 08:57 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

"A few experiences on salvia and you'll be shown that there isnt."

How do you know that I haven't tried salvia, also, the psychedelic experience itself is not the place in which you learn, but feel.  The reflection upon your trip is when you learn, and put to use the knowledge that you obtain (or destroy?) Also, what do you mean "shown that there isn't", you are pointing to nothing.

"The thought of it is great but in the end it's all predestined.. it's very frustrating.."

The thought of what? I cannot read your mind.  Could you clarify what you mean?

"...the fun part is to be able to comprehed a concept like that and think about it, and  try to outwit it.. lol impossible."

I don't know what is 'impossible'.  Nothing is 'impossible', as much as it is in the process of becoming within the reach of a will to become 'possible'. A hundred years ago people gawked at the idea of flight, and by the 1970's we had gone to the moon. Simply put; our power to control and understand the world is the foundation of human nature. We desire, and strive towards perfection even though it's "impossible" to become perfect, although we try everyday to improve ourselves in some manner.

"Whatever an individual is doing and myself is what is meant to be done, it's all part of the experience(process)"

Meant to be done? What is doing the dictation? An invisible will? You offer no proof, or even argument.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: idmtrance]
    #11843439 - 01/16/10 09:44 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

I feel like a lot of people here aren't fully grasping the concept. What if your so called idea of free will is in reality part of your predestined future. IE: you think what your doing is of your own choice, or "free will", but in reality it is part of your "destiny" and purpose in life. You may think that you have free will, but in reality this is just part of your predestiny. You think you are starting the fire, extinguishing it, etc but in reality all these things were meant to happen and have to happen.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: benton]
    #11843655 - 01/16/10 10:35 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

I spent the summer at a monastery and I asked one of the monks whether or not we had freewill. This was his answer.

"Yes, we do have freewill. But you were going to ask me this question anyway. Understand?"


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11843678 - 01/16/10 10:40 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Fate's a bitch. :stoned:



--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Poid]
    #11843759 - 01/16/10 10:57 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Fate's only a bitch when their is a bitch to experience it.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11843807 - 01/16/10 11:05 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Bitchhood is a matter of degree, not kind.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11846231 - 01/17/10 12:09 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

You are a primate, made up of nothing but material, this material controls the function of your mind and body without you interfering constantly. Try to stop breathing. You can't for too long. Therefore free will does not exist completely, but within the realms of your material body. There are no ghost in your machine, only material. Free will does not exist in the sense that most of the unconscious material that runs your body is not controlled by the conscious "you".

Dilbert on Freewill:


--------------------


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11846256 - 01/17/10 12:15 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

There is free will even though there is a cause and effect aspect to it. I believe there are different choices which will lead you to different conclusions or state of mind. There is not just one road but many and it depends on the one that you choose is what may happen next. There is always a choice to do and not do but there are choices within it as to do it a particular way or another. I believe in free will but it seems that for ever action there is an opposite and equal reaction. It may not be at the exact moment but later maybe for better or worse.


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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Rhapsody]
    #11846327 - 01/17/10 12:35 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Rhapsody said:
There is free will even though there is a cause and effect aspect to it. I believe there are different choices which will lead you to different conclusions or state of mind. There is not just one road but many and it depends on the one that you choose is what may happen next. There is always a choice to do and not do but there are choices within it as to do it a particular way or another. I believe in free will but it seems that for ever action there is an opposite and equal reaction. It may not be at the exact moment but later maybe for better or worse.




Your choice is predetermined. :levitate:


--------------------
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11846719 - 01/17/10 01:57 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

As Hume argued, hundreds of fuckin' years ago, the believed contradiction between determinism and free will is fallacious.
Too bad nobody listened.

Here's how I put it:
Our brains, or minds, or consciousness (whatever you'd like to call our "will engine") is a part of the universe.
The function of consciousness is to make choices.
Consciousness is part of the universe, and therefore if the universe is deterministic then so is the mechanism of action for consciousness.

So, what does this mean about our freedom?
Answer: nothing.

Yes, it means that our choices aren't arbitrary, they don't come out of nowhere without relationship to context -- but who the fuck would want that?
Your brain is a machine who's job it is to make choices. This it does. IE: YOU do. A given context presents you with obstacles or potential goals, you extrapolate possible outcomes, and select the most appealing.
In what sense is that not free choice?

The real question which I have never heard a "no-free-will-er" answer is:
If we do not have free will, what would our behavior look like if we DID?
Even in a deterministic world, the mind selects its own course of action from a self-created range of possibilities. If that's not freedom, what is?

Furthermore, given the state of modern science, I think we really need to question this word "determined."
Quantum indeterminacy?
Butterfly effect?
Observer effect?

Mechanistic determinism, IE the philosophy of Newton, is simply no longer a viable worldview, and I question whether "indeterminate determinism" is a phrase we really want to start using.


--------------------
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11846803 - 01/17/10 02:12 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Here is my understanding of this:

If you believe in only the material world as science does then it seems fate does exist, and there's no escaping it, but there is also no real way of knowing it without access to some kind of "mind of god" that can process and track every bit of energy in the entire universe from start to finish. (or at least something close to that)

If you believe in the possibility of dimensions beyond our sphere of experience then perhaps our minds stretch in some way into this dimension and that allows for free will. In which case I would suggest that all life has varying degrees of this with us being either the most connected to this dimension, or the most capable users of it.

Now to how I see us specifically.

It could be that we are nothing but several thousand (or million) sets of biological programs which have evolved to experience free will, (like characters in a game) or that we actually have some form of free will.

I see only two possible ways for us to have free will, one would be the other dimension which we know nothing about, the other is the only explanation for free will that works within the world of our experience.

This is basically the same as the materialistic view (that we are a biological computer which runs programs encoded in the mind by genetics and contact with the world of experience) except that there is something like a gentle wrench thrown into the cogs to produce an element of randomness that we perceive as free choice. Kinda like what mutations do for DNA, this "wrench in the cogs" causes us to think lots of useless, sometimes stupid ideas, but every once in a while it actually knocks one of the cogs into a new and better position.

I think I know what the wrench is too. I think it's DMT. After all there is that link to our dreaming, and everyone knows that dreams are just a twisted, deviation of experience that our minds put together. Also most people experience new creativity when they take drugs. Some are obviously better then others, maybe they each work on different parts of the brain, maybe it's only some drugs, like hallucinogens. I think drugs are the wrenches that are evolving our minds, whether your sober or not!

My example would be the chimps putting the stick into the termite mound, shoving cylinders into holes isn't new to any mammal:wink:, just knock that old mating program into a new scenario and viola, termites stuck to a stick. (a bit simplistic, but meh)

Sorry for my bad structure, I hated english class. (Why do I need to learn English? It's the only language I'm fluent in!)


--------------------
It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
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Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: GoshAllMighty]
    #11846939 - 01/17/10 02:42 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Almighty said:
You are a primate, made up of nothing but material, this material controls the function of your mind and body without you interfering constantly. Try to stop breathing. You can't for too long. Therefore free will does not exist completely, but within the realms of your material body. There are no ghost in your machine, only material. Free will does not exist in the sense that most of the unconscious material that runs your body is not controlled by the conscious "you".

Dilbert on Freewill:






Right,:thumbup: Although I believe "ghost in the Machine refers to the mismanaged interface between the R-brain, limbic, and neo cortex.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleamuzakat
Growing mutant shrooms


Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 519
Loc: Europe
Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11847455 - 01/17/10 04:28 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Nothing THAT GOOD comes for free. Earn it! It's a matter of hard work, not philosophy. :rocket:


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Offlinemorrowasted
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 27,155
Last seen: 2 hours, 22 minutes
Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: amuzakat]
    #11847581 - 01/17/10 04:55 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Free will is the most fundamental law. Everything, down the the smallest particle, has free will.


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Invisibleamuzakat
Growing mutant shrooms


Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 519
Loc: Europe
Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: morrowasted]
    #11847630 - 01/17/10 05:07 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

I find it very difficult, almost impossible actually, to do anything but my free will. Is that the exercise of the free will?


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Offlinebillycorgan55
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Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 537
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11852315 - 01/18/10 12:53 PM (12 years, 5 days ago)

Honestly...My mind is blown. I love these message boards because people

are so smart. I believe we do have free will, but our free will is only

coexistent with our view of time. We view time as a linear path witch

has a beginning and continues on. But in modern physics time is

viewed very differently. Yes our actions are predetermined by our

singular and absolute time line, but if we could perceive things in

four dimensions(time and space) than I'm sure our opinions would be

altered considerably. Basically time is not linear.


--------------------
OM MADNE PADME OBIWAN LUKE HUM....


Edited by billycorgan55 (01/19/10 09:23 PM)


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InvisiblePrimal Glitch
literally just vibing
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Registered: 05/06/07
Posts: 4,721
Loc: 🌎 Flag
Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11852467 - 01/18/10 01:34 PM (12 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

appleorange said:
I spent the summer at a monastery and I asked one of the monks whether or not we had freewill. This was his answer.

"Yes, we do have freewill. But you were going to ask me this question anyway. Understand?"



:thumbup:

for me it's like we have the ability to switch between a deterministic reality and a free will reality

from one side I'd think I'm choosing to switch like that

from the other side it would seem like I was predetermined to do so

why choose a side? reality is bigger than that

:sun:


--------------------

                                  make the changa you wish to see in the world
                                                                gnome sayin'?


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