Home | Community | Message Board

MushroomCube.com
Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5  [ show all ]
Offlineidmtrance
Male User Gallery

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Japan (日本
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: wnfakind]
    #11843164 - 01/16/10 08:57 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

"A few experiences on salvia and you'll be shown that there isnt."

How do you know that I haven't tried salvia, also, the psychedelic experience itself is not the place in which you learn, but feel.  The reflection upon your trip is when you learn, and put to use the knowledge that you obtain (or destroy?) Also, what do you mean "shown that there isn't", you are pointing to nothing.

"The thought of it is great but in the end it's all predestined.. it's very frustrating.."

The thought of what? I cannot read your mind.  Could you clarify what you mean?

"...the fun part is to be able to comprehed a concept like that and think about it, and  try to outwit it.. lol impossible."

I don't know what is 'impossible'.  Nothing is 'impossible', as much as it is in the process of becoming within the reach of a will to become 'possible'. A hundred years ago people gawked at the idea of flight, and by the 1970's we had gone to the moon. Simply put; our power to control and understand the world is the foundation of human nature. We desire, and strive towards perfection even though it's "impossible" to become perfect, although we try everyday to improve ourselves in some manner.

"Whatever an individual is doing and myself is what is meant to be done, it's all part of the experience(process)"

Meant to be done? What is doing the dictation? An invisible will? You offer no proof, or even argument.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinebenton
Psyborg


Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 713
Loc: The Clouds
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: idmtrance]
    #11843439 - 01/16/10 09:44 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

I feel like a lot of people here aren't fully grasping the concept. What if your so called idea of free will is in reality part of your predestined future. IE: you think what your doing is of your own choice, or "free will", but in reality it is part of your "destiny" and purpose in life. You may think that you have free will, but in reality this is just part of your predestiny. You think you are starting the fire, extinguishing it, etc but in reality all these things were meant to happen and have to happen.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisibleappleorange
Rainbow Technician
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: benton]
    #11843655 - 01/16/10 10:35 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

I spent the summer at a monastery and I asked one of the monks whether or not we had freewill. This was his answer.

"Yes, we do have freewill. But you were going to ask me this question anyway. Understand?"


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11843678 - 01/16/10 10:40 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

Fate's a bitch. :stoned:



--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisibleappleorange
Rainbow Technician
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Poid]
    #11843759 - 01/16/10 10:57 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

Fate's only a bitch when their is a bitch to experience it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11843807 - 01/16/10 11:05 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

Bitchhood is a matter of degree, not kind.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineGoshAllMighty
Oh My Gosh!
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/02/09
Posts: 837
Loc: °360
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11846231 - 01/17/10 12:09 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

You are a primate, made up of nothing but material, this material controls the function of your mind and body without you interfering constantly. Try to stop breathing. You can't for too long. Therefore free will does not exist completely, but within the realms of your material body. There are no ghost in your machine, only material. Free will does not exist in the sense that most of the unconscious material that runs your body is not controlled by the conscious "you".

Dilbert on Freewill:


--------------------


Perception is delicious.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineRhapsody
Stranger


Registered: 01/10/10
Posts: 25
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11846256 - 01/17/10 12:15 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

There is free will even though there is a cause and effect aspect to it. I believe there are different choices which will lead you to different conclusions or state of mind. There is not just one road but many and it depends on the one that you choose is what may happen next. There is always a choice to do and not do but there are choices within it as to do it a particular way or another. I believe in free will but it seems that for ever action there is an opposite and equal reaction. It may not be at the exact moment but later maybe for better or worse.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisibleexplosiveoxygen
Prophet of TGMM


Registered: 07/10/09
Posts: 1,255
Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: Rhapsody]
    #11846327 - 01/17/10 12:35 PM (12 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Rhapsody said:
There is free will even though there is a cause and effect aspect to it. I believe there are different choices which will lead you to different conclusions or state of mind. There is not just one road but many and it depends on the one that you choose is what may happen next. There is always a choice to do and not do but there are choices within it as to do it a particular way or another. I believe in free will but it seems that for ever action there is an opposite and equal reaction. It may not be at the exact moment but later maybe for better or worse.




Your choice is predetermined. :levitate:


--------------------
The Great Mycelium (TGMM) is more than you and me, we are all part of One.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinelaserpig
Weedmaster_P

Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 7,468
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11846719 - 01/17/10 01:57 PM (12 years, 10 days ago)

As Hume argued, hundreds of fuckin' years ago, the believed contradiction between determinism and free will is fallacious.
Too bad nobody listened.

Here's how I put it:
Our brains, or minds, or consciousness (whatever you'd like to call our "will engine") is a part of the universe.
The function of consciousness is to make choices.
Consciousness is part of the universe, and therefore if the universe is deterministic then so is the mechanism of action for consciousness.

So, what does this mean about our freedom?
Answer: nothing.

Yes, it means that our choices aren't arbitrary, they don't come out of nowhere without relationship to context -- but who the fuck would want that?
Your brain is a machine who's job it is to make choices. This it does. IE: YOU do. A given context presents you with obstacles or potential goals, you extrapolate possible outcomes, and select the most appealing.
In what sense is that not free choice?

The real question which I have never heard a "no-free-will-er" answer is:
If we do not have free will, what would our behavior look like if we DID?
Even in a deterministic world, the mind selects its own course of action from a self-created range of possibilities. If that's not freedom, what is?

Furthermore, given the state of modern science, I think we really need to question this word "determined."
Quantum indeterminacy?
Butterfly effect?
Observer effect?

Mechanistic determinism, IE the philosophy of Newton, is simply no longer a viable worldview, and I question whether "indeterminate determinism" is a phrase we really want to start using.


--------------------
Weedmaster P knows the truth.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineHashishin13
Male User Gallery
Registered: 10/10/09
Posts: 315
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11846803 - 01/17/10 02:12 PM (12 years, 10 days ago)

Here is my understanding of this:

If you believe in only the material world as science does then it seems fate does exist, and there's no escaping it, but there is also no real way of knowing it without access to some kind of "mind of god" that can process and track every bit of energy in the entire universe from start to finish. (or at least something close to that)

If you believe in the possibility of dimensions beyond our sphere of experience then perhaps our minds stretch in some way into this dimension and that allows for free will. In which case I would suggest that all life has varying degrees of this with us being either the most connected to this dimension, or the most capable users of it.

Now to how I see us specifically.

It could be that we are nothing but several thousand (or million) sets of biological programs which have evolved to experience free will, (like characters in a game) or that we actually have some form of free will.

I see only two possible ways for us to have free will, one would be the other dimension which we know nothing about, the other is the only explanation for free will that works within the world of our experience.

This is basically the same as the materialistic view (that we are a biological computer which runs programs encoded in the mind by genetics and contact with the world of experience) except that there is something like a gentle wrench thrown into the cogs to produce an element of randomness that we perceive as free choice. Kinda like what mutations do for DNA, this "wrench in the cogs" causes us to think lots of useless, sometimes stupid ideas, but every once in a while it actually knocks one of the cogs into a new and better position.

I think I know what the wrench is too. I think it's DMT. After all there is that link to our dreaming, and everyone knows that dreams are just a twisted, deviation of experience that our minds put together. Also most people experience new creativity when they take drugs. Some are obviously better then others, maybe they each work on different parts of the brain, maybe it's only some drugs, like hallucinogens. I think drugs are the wrenches that are evolving our minds, whether your sober or not!

My example would be the chimps putting the stick into the termite mound, shoving cylinders into holes isn't new to any mammal:wink:, just knock that old mating program into a new scenario and viola, termites stuck to a stick. (a bit simplistic, but meh)

Sorry for my bad structure, I hated english class. (Why do I need to learn English? It's the only language I'm fluent in!)


--------------------
It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
-George Washington


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: GoshAllMighty]
    #11846939 - 01/17/10 02:42 PM (12 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Almighty said:
You are a primate, made up of nothing but material, this material controls the function of your mind and body without you interfering constantly. Try to stop breathing. You can't for too long. Therefore free will does not exist completely, but within the realms of your material body. There are no ghost in your machine, only material. Free will does not exist in the sense that most of the unconscious material that runs your body is not controlled by the conscious "you".

Dilbert on Freewill:






Right,:thumbup: Although I believe "ghost in the Machine refers to the mismanaged interface between the R-brain, limbic, and neo cortex.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisibleamuzakat
Growing mutant shrooms


Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 519
Loc: Europe
Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11847455 - 01/17/10 04:28 PM (12 years, 10 days ago)

Nothing THAT GOOD comes for free. Earn it! It's a matter of hard work, not philosophy. :rocket:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 27,158
Last seen: 13 hours, 16 minutes
Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: amuzakat]
    #11847581 - 01/17/10 04:55 PM (12 years, 10 days ago)

Free will is the most fundamental law. Everything, down the the smallest particle, has free will.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisibleamuzakat
Growing mutant shrooms


Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 519
Loc: Europe
Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: morrowasted]
    #11847630 - 01/17/10 05:07 PM (12 years, 10 days ago)

I find it very difficult, almost impossible actually, to do anything but my free will. Is that the exercise of the free will?


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinebillycorgan55
Stranger

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 537
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11852315 - 01/18/10 12:53 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

Honestly...My mind is blown. I love these message boards because people

are so smart. I believe we do have free will, but our free will is only

coexistent with our view of time. We view time as a linear path witch

has a beginning and continues on. But in modern physics time is

viewed very differently. Yes our actions are predetermined by our

singular and absolute time line, but if we could perceive things in

four dimensions(time and space) than I'm sure our opinions would be

altered considerably. Basically time is not linear.


--------------------
OM MADNE PADME OBIWAN LUKE HUM....


Edited by billycorgan55 (01/19/10 09:23 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisiblePrimal Glitch
literally just vibing
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/06/07
Posts: 4,721
Loc: 🌎 Flag
Re: Does Freewill Exist? [Re: appleorange]
    #11852467 - 01/18/10 01:34 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

appleorange said:
I spent the summer at a monastery and I asked one of the monks whether or not we had freewill. This was his answer.

"Yes, we do have freewill. But you were going to ask me this question anyway. Understand?"



:thumbup:

for me it's like we have the ability to switch between a deterministic reality and a free will reality

from one side I'd think I'm choosing to switch like that

from the other side it would seem like I was predetermined to do so

why choose a side? reality is bigger than that

:sun:


--------------------

                                  make the changa you wish to see in the world
                                                                gnome sayin'?


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5  [ show all ]

Shop: Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* "Freewill problem" check
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
buttonion 17,453 153 04/23/07 12:13 AM
by Phred
* *cough* EXISTENCE *hack*
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 all )
buttonion 20,383 173 03/19/04 02:03 AM
by Frog
* Eastern Mysticism and Freewill buttonion 813 4 03/15/04 10:44 PM
by SYCOdelik
* Freewill vs. Determinism: ....???
( 1 2 3 all )
buttonion 6,376 52 04/16/03 03:39 AM
by JuR
* Sentenced to the Uncertainties of Life
( 1 2 all )
Sclorch 2,598 34 01/04/03 02:01 PM
by Anonymous
* objective reality does not exist
( 1 2 all )
monoamine 6,090 34 11/01/02 10:55 AM
by Newbie2000
* do aliens exist?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
dorkus 4,401 66 02/05/05 11:32 PM
by incubaby_421
* fundamental question on the existence of motion
( 1 2 all )
automanM 1,628 22 09/24/03 10:27 AM
by trendal

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
3,003 topic views. 2 members, 1 guests and 2 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic | ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2022 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.042 seconds spending 0.017 seconds on 18 queries.