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SillyBilly
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Could also be a super conspiracy by some smart drug dealer who realized the density of PE usually resulted in better weights for yield so he created a giant placebo effect scam to trick buyers into wanting PE only. Making him increase profits.
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RogerRabbit
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PE has less genetic diversity than other 'strains', making it about the only one I would consider a print or syringe to be an actual strain. The lack of diversity is what makes it have the distinctive shape more often than not, and probably why it has consistent potency.
To see this first hand for yourselves, all you guys need to do is get a sporeprint and do a series of strain isolations. Fruit each one and you'll see the diversity. You'll have large fruits, small fruits, large caps, small caps, tall fruits, short fruits, various colors, thick stems, thin stems, and potency that varies across the spectrum, just like the other factors listed. RR
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talkingwalnut
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It would be really cool to see a scientific fact that PE is more potent.
I don't go into a trip thinking it's going to be potent in the 1st place. I let the shrooms tell me
If I dose something and I'm curled up on a couch begging for mercy then it's pretty potent.
Maybe for other people but you can't trick me into thinking something is more potent. It either blows your ass away or it don't.
and PE always blows my ass away harder than any other strain I've tried.
I've tripped harder on 2 grams of pe then I did on 7 grams of Golden T
Also like RR said you can always isolate something to be extremely potent.
I look at it as 9 out of 10 times you grow out PE as a MS batch and it's still REALLY potent..and that's pretty cool
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evildee125
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"I look at it as 9 out of 10 times you grow out PE as a MS batch and it's still REALLY potent..and that's pretty cool"
thats a good point you make that seems to be overlooked..yeah it fluctuates yadah yadah.. but on average what is the potency and other characteristics of a "strain".. i think thats the real question and why only ms would do.. to keep the sample random of course
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Doc_T
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Registered: 03/06/09
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: PE has less genetic diversity than other 'strains', making it about the only one I would consider a print or syringe to be an actual strain. The lack of diversity is what makes it have the distinctive shape more often than not, and probably why it has consistent potency. RR
This might be the same reason B+ seems to lack potency sometimes- while selecting for fruit size or substrate preference, maybe growers have inadvertently selected for lower potency in some sublines...
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Rose
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Doc_T]
#11790352 - 01/08/10 03:15 PM (15 years, 11 days ago) |
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Yup.
Some classic shrooms have been inbred too much. Tampanensis comes to mind. It took years to get that one looking like a regular mushroom again. There are techniques that can help rejuvenate an old, brand name shrooms... but as you limit diversity, you limit your options. Sometimes selective breeding can make great things happen (ie: PE) but yes, I suspect (at least some lines of) B+ may be on the verge of limiting their own maximum potency.
Like RR said, a limited genetic diversity should yield more common results with MS. I also agree that PE is about the only cube which has been inbred to a point where its results are predictable. There a few classic cubes... but not a lot... and most of them still have more diversity than PE. PF's cubes are classic... B+... the PES cubes are getting close... not many more.
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Edited by Rose (01/08/10 03:29 PM)
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NoOneKnowsHowToAct
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Rose]
#11790477 - 01/08/10 03:40 PM (15 years, 11 days ago) |
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So, for a simple extraction for testing potency.... Any chemists please give their $0.02 as I have very little chemistry knowledge.
1. Mix Mushroom powder (or pulverized fresh fruits) with enough vinegar to give the mixture a PH of 4.
2. Leave sit for an hour.
3. Place into water bath to bring the temperature to 70C (~160F).
4. Remove from water bath and let cool to room temperature.
5. Filter out the physical matter from the solution.
6. Add ammonia until the PH of the solution is 8.
7. Add naphtha to solution.
8. "roll" to mix naphtha with solution.
9. Extract the naphtha from the solution (I'll probably be using a syringe for this. Seems to work well. Easy suggestions are welcomed)
10. Evaporate the naphtha? Would freezing the naphtha work like it does for that one DMT tek?
Also, would adding a step 0 of "Run the source material through a butane extraction (like BHO) to eliminate unwanted fats" be a good idea? Is it not necessary? Would it be a bad idea? From my understanding I would just ditch what comes out of the tube as the butane would grab the fats?
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Necco
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Quote:
NoOneKnowsHowToAct said:
Quote:
mubba said: ...Try to have as few variables as possible (start with pure reagents). Ammonia is preferred to carbonate...
Would dehydrated lime and ammonia be better to use then?
Both chemicals you mentioned are bases, you would only need ammonia. You mostly needed to find a substitute for the acid.
Dehydrated lime (if you are referring to CaO) is a strong base that generates a good deal of heat when added to water. It would be a poor choice for a number of reasons.
Based on my assessment of your chemical knowledge, I'd only suggest going through with this process if you are interested in trying to isolate some actives, but not if your intention is to try to quantitatively determine alkaloid concentration statistics. For the latter, I suggest you start out by taking some college chem (or at least reading the books).
Quote:
NoOneKnowsHowToAct said:So, for a simple extraction for testing potency.... Any chemists please give their $0.02 as I have very little chemistry knowledge.
If your interest is in testing for potency, the easiest way is to eat the mushrooms
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NoOneKnowsHowToAct
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Necco]
#11790608 - 01/08/10 04:01 PM (15 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
mubba said:
Quote:
NoOneKnowsHowToAct said: Would dehydrated lime and ammonia be better to use then?
Both chemicals you mentioned are bases, you would only need ammonia. You mostly needed to find a substitute for the acid.
Dehydrated lime (if you are referring to CaO) is a strong base that generates a good deal of heat when added to water. It would be a poor choice for a number of reasons.
Based on my assessment of your chemical knowledge, I'd only suggest going through with this process if you are interested in trying to isolate some actives, but not if your intention is to try to quantitatively determine alkaloid concentration statistics. For the latter, I suggest you start out by taking some college chem (or at least reading the books).
I do plan on doing some reading, but to note, those chemicals listed weren't suggestions for the acid and base, but for the replacements of the base I used my small experiment last night (the sodium carbonate).
Quote:
mubba said: If your interest is in testing for potency, the easiest way is to eat the mushrooms 
We've been over this earlier in the thread as to why consumption is not a way to test potency... One of the main topics of this thread even...
So, from what I've been reading, the process I'm trying to do converts the goodies into O-Acetylpsilocin/4-acetoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine/4-AcO-DMT and then we actually end up extracting that. Apparently this is also the chemical that is made from using the lemon-tek which is one of the reasons why it seems more potent and hits quicker? Comments?
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Necco
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Registered: 08/05/05
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Quote:
NoOneKnowsHowToAct said:
Quote:
mubba said: If your interest is in testing for potency, the easiest way is to eat the mushrooms 
We've been over this earlier in the thread as to why consumption is not a way to test potency... One of the main topics of this thread even...
Eating is a sure fire way to test to see if a mushroom is potent, that is why I said that. If you are trying to determine the minute differences between one mushroom and another, your procedure is not likely to give you any useful data. There are too many problems, variables, issues with it to work well, especially for a novice chemist.
Quote:
So, from what I've been reading, the process I'm trying to do converts the goodies into O-Acetylpsilocin/4-acetoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine/4-AcO-DMT and then we actually end up extracting that. Apparently this is also the chemical that is made from using the lemon-tek which is one of the reasons why it seems more potent and hits quicker? Comments?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there isn't a whole lot of acetic acid in a lemon.
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LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs




Registered: 05/12/07
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Necco]
#11790758 - 01/08/10 04:26 PM (15 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
mubba said: Eating is a sure fire way to test to see if a mushroom is potent, that is why I said that. If you are trying to determine the minute differences between one mushroom and another, your procedure is not likely to give you any useful data. There are too many problems, variables, issues with it to work well, especially for a novice chemist.
And your saying that eating mushrooms has less problems, variables and issues to work with?
Com'on, doing a subjective experiment with people eating the mushroom is so much more messy. You have to deal with the person's current tolerance, their hallucinogic/mushroom experiences background, set, setting, correct dosage, what they ate that day, body weigh, time-of-day, age, who they are with while on the shrooms, etc., etc., not to mention the variable in potency of the actual mushroom you are giving them.
There is waaaay to many variables with a subjective trip test for the potency of PE. Doing extractions from random samples of 2 mushrooms, PE and a control, than weighing it is a much better alternative. Of course, the ultimate would be to do a Mass Spectrometry (MS), Thin-Layer Chromography (TLC, the cheapest and simpliest) or a Gas-Liquid Chromography (GLC) analysis. But in our budgets and this economy, I don't see that happening.
Measuring physical, dried crystals of the actives from randomly choosen mushrooms of PE and a control is best analytical method with our resources, unless one of you guys wants to donate a MS, TLC, or GLC machine!
Analyze This! ~ LogicaL Chaos ~
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Edited by LogicaL Chaos (01/08/10 04:30 PM)
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Necco]
#11790763 - 01/08/10 04:27 PM (15 years, 11 days ago) |
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People still don't seem to understand. Assuming you had a sure-fire instrument to test potency and could measure each 'named strain', it still wouldn't mean squat.
By using multispore inoculation, it would be no different than testing a blue car for top speed, or even a hundred blue cars for top speed and then averaging the results. If you then did it for 100 red cars and the average was 5 mph slower, does that mean you can accurately say that blue cars are faster? If you want consistent results, you have to isolate strains. That's the nature of the beast. RR
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Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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You still don't seem to understand. Nobody wants to compare one named strain against another named strain. We want to test a specific genetic line- PE- against the population as a whole. Yes, you can isolate extreme cases. We are talking about averages here.
Why are so hot to bully us into believing you? Why not let the idea play out?
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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evildee125
Here now



Registered: 03/23/09
Posts: 3,179
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: People still don't seem to understand. Assuming you had a sure-fire instrument to test potency and could measure each 'named strain', it still wouldn't mean squat.
By using multispore inoculation, it would be no different than testing a blue car for top speed, or even a hundred blue cars for top speed and then averaging the results. If you then did it for 100 red cars and the average was 5 mph slower, does that mean you can accurately say that blue cars are faster? If you want consistent results, you have to isolate strains. That's the nature of the beast. RR
so you would be testing the best genetics one was able to obtain from one strain vs the best genetics you can obtain from another... youd still have to create several isolates from several sources wouldnt you.. youd still be looking at averages.. isolates dont make sense for what the project is trying to achieve
"You still don't seem to understand. Nobody wants to compare one named strain against another named strain. We want to test a specific genetic line- PE- against the population as a whole. Yes, you can isolate extreme cases. We are talking about averages here.
Why are so hot to bully us into believing you? Why not let the idea play out? " doc if i could give you five more shrooms for this comment i would.. i thought i was the only one seeing it
Edited by evildee125 (01/08/10 04:40 PM)
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



Registered: 09/24/03
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Doc_T]
#11790841 - 01/08/10 04:38 PM (15 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
Doc_T said: Why are so hot to bully us into believing you? Why not let the idea play out?
RR's not bullying anyone. He's participating in this discussion in the same cranky way he participates in all discussions. He knows his shit and if I were a betting man, I'd put my money on his theories.
That said, I agree, the point is to compare PE to the average cube... and that means we've also gotta' figure out what an 'Average' cube is.
MS, and not isolates are what we need in order to find this info.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Doc_T]
#11790865 - 01/08/10 04:42 PM (15 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
We want to test a specific genetic line- PE- against the population as a whole.
I don't give a fuck if you do it or not. I'm pointing out that it won't mean anything. In your first sentence you say you don't want to compare one named strain against another, and in the next sentence that's exactly what you want to do(averaging all strains/blue cars). One of these days, somebody is going to actually do it instead of just talking.  RR
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Rose
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How do you suggest using isolates?
I understand how isolates would help in a true, scientific environment. This unfortunately is not that environment. It is The Shroomery. If we opened this experiment up to everybody's isolates, we'd get uneven potency readings because many cultivators isolate FOR potency.
If we opened it up to MS cube grows and MS PE grows, we may see something a little more 'Common'... especially if we have many people participate.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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evildee125
Here now



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Re: Potency Project [Re: Rose]
#11790952 - 01/08/10 04:55 PM (15 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said: How do you suggest using isolates?
I understand how isolates would help in a true, scientific environment. This unfortunately is not that environment. It is The Shroomery. If we opened this experiment up to everybody's isolates, we'd get uneven potency readings because many cultivators isolate FOR potency.
If we opened it up to MS cube grows and MS PE grows, we may see something a little more 'Common'... especially if we have many people participate.
this^^ and what keeps one person's isolate from being better than the next
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Necco
Thread Killer


Registered: 08/05/05
Posts: 608
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Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said:
Quote:
mubba said: Eating is a sure fire way to test to see if a mushroom is potent, that is why I said that. If you are trying to determine the minute differences between one mushroom and another, your procedure is not likely to give you any useful data. There are too many problems, variables, issues with it to work well, especially for a novice chemist.
And your saying that eating mushrooms has less problems, variables and issues to work with?
Com'on, doing a subjective experiment with people eating the mushroom is so much more messy. You have to deal with the person's current tolerance, their hallucinogic/mushroom experiences background, set, setting, correct dosage, what they ate that day, body weigh, time-of-day, age, who they are with while on the shrooms, etc., etc., not to mention the variable in potency of the actual mushroom you are giving them.
There is waaaay to many variables with a subjective trip test for the potency of PE. Doing extractions from random samples of 2 mushrooms, PE and a control, than weighing it is a much better alternative. Of course, the ultimate would be to do a Mass Spectrometry (MS), Thin-Layer Chromography (TLC, the cheapest and simpliest) or a Gas-Liquid Chromography (GLC) analysis. But in our budgets and this economy, I don't see that happening.
Measuring physical, dried crystals of the actives from randomly choosen mushrooms of PE and a control is best analytical method with our resources, unless one of you guys wants to donate a MS, TLC, or GLC machine!
Analyze This! ~ LogicaL Chaos ~
I agree with everything you said (except for the stuff about ms, glc, tlc).
This is a classic case of the vaguery and detachedness of forum posting leading nobody to understand what anybody else is trying to get at. In other words, plenty of people are reading into people's posts the wrong way and/or totally ignoring them.
This thread has branched out so much, it is frustrating to read. So many nay-sayers and people with different ideas who are not willing to work together provide that we are sure to make no progress as a community. I think we can only wait until one dedicated person or small group does all the work on their own and wows us with the results. Bummer, I guess this makes me a nay-sayer.
To add, the poster I was replying to wasn't likely (using his proposed technique) going to end up with crystals. At least not of psilocin or his citric-phenolate or whatever he was getting at. I never meant to imply that he could accomplish the goals of this thread by eating a mushroom, just his personal goal of determining potency. His air-dried naptha tar would be totally worthless, for consumption or analysis.
TLC doesn't require anything fancy, it requires a couple plates of glass, some silica gel and some plaster of paris. A mass spectrometer wouldn't be necessary, just the chromatograph attached. Even GC isn't that great because of the heat.
(edited to add the last paragraph)
Edited by Necco (01/08/10 05:42 PM)
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Necco
Thread Killer


Registered: 08/05/05
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: People still don't seem to understand. Assuming you had a sure-fire instrument to test potency and could measure each 'named strain', it still wouldn't mean squat.
By using multispore inoculation, it would be no different than testing a blue car for top speed, or even a hundred blue cars for top speed and then averaging the results. If you then did it for 100 red cars and the average was 5 mph slower, does that mean you can accurately say that blue cars are faster? If you want consistent results, you have to isolate strains. That's the nature of the beast. RR
By using multispore inoculation of different spore lines it would be closer to testing all car models of different makes, then comparing the averages of each make. Totota makes some faster cars and some slower cars, so does bmw. However, the spread is different and the average as well.
I agree that if anybody wants consistent results we need an isolate, but this thread isn't about maintaining a consistent culture, it is about the average expectation between lines.
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