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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: Potency Project [Re: libertaire]
    #11820749 - 01/13/10 09:19 AM (15 years, 6 days ago)

Although the more I look into the acetic acid extraction, the more I'm liking it.

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OfflineNoOneKnowsHowToAct
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Re: Potency Project [Re: libertaire]
    #11820757 - 01/13/10 09:21 AM (15 years, 6 days ago)

I'm pretty sure I can get my hands on methanol, and I'm pretty sure everyone else can as well. I saw it at the store the other day (wally world). I'll have to grab some to test but I'm pretty sure that even if that brand isn't pure it probably won't be hard to find methanol. I find it funny that I can find pure methanol but can't ethanol over 75.5%...

Link for those that aren't working today and want to take a trip to the store:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/86514#86514


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OfflineNoOneKnowsHowToAct
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Re: Potency Project [Re: libertaire]
    #11820768 - 01/13/10 09:22 AM (15 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

libertaire said:
Although the more I look into the acetic acid extraction, the more I'm liking it.




What should I do with my vinegar solution at home? It's completely done filtering. I took a small 150ml sample of it and put it in a jar with a bunch of desiccant to see if I could get something to precipitate but I doubt anything'll happen.


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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: Potency Project [Re: NoOneKnowsHowToAct]
    #11820820 - 01/13/10 09:31 AM (15 years, 6 days ago)

That's a good question.  If no crystals are left behind in your sample, something else must be done, like adding it to a base perhaps.

Edited by libertaire (01/13/10 09:38 AM)

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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: Potency Project [Re: libertaire]
    #11820854 - 01/13/10 09:37 AM (15 years, 6 days ago)

People over at the DMT nexus seem to have tried acetic acid extractions with a second step of a dsm extraction.  No concrete results were ever posted though.

http://dmt-nexus.com/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&m=85785#post85785

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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: Potency Project [Re: NoOneKnowsHowToAct]
    #11821021 - 01/13/10 10:15 AM (15 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

NoOneKnowsHowToAct said:
I find it funny that I can find pure methanol but can't ethanol over 75.5%...




It's not hard to distill alcohol. And as long as you don't intend to drink it, it's (generally) legal to do so.


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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Doc_T]
    #11821217 - 01/13/10 10:56 AM (15 years, 6 days ago)

Ok, found something else pretty interesting:

http://www.dmt-nexus.com/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&m=77188#post77188

"1. the net charge of psilocybin from pH 4 and above is negative. This means that psilocybin can form salts such as, say sodium psilocybinate, potassium psilocybinate, magnesium psilocybinate or calcium psilocybinate in such solutions.

The most likely form of native psilocybin in mushrooms is therefore expected to be one of the above, since sodium, potassium, magnesium and calcium are the predominant cations in biological systems and the pH of common biological fluids is usually above 4 (please correct me if that is wrong)

2. methanol (2 x 30ml per 1gram of fungal material) extracts more than 98% of psilocybin.

3. psilocybin is very stable, even for days in basic solution such as pH 12 at room temperature.

This is good news, and can be possibly used to isolate psilocybin. 69ron already proposed to form calcium psilocybinate as an extraction trick because calcium salts are usually very insoluble in water. Which means that in theory one can extract semilanceatas with methanol, dry methanol, resuspend residue in water and basify with a CaOH-saturated aqueous solution and hopefully calcium psilocybinate may precipitate."

What this also makes me wonder is why it would not be possible to do a similar a/b extraction, such as using acetic acid to sodium hydroxide to get an end result of sodium psilocybinate?

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Offlinefundamentalchair
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Re: Potency Project [Re: libertaire]
    #11823386 - 01/13/10 04:33 PM (15 years, 6 days ago)

I know of a chemical supply house that will sell anhydrous ethanol, would have to find it again though.

Methanol is fairly popular due to the whole bio-diesel craze. Should be able to find it online at 95%+ pure.

Quote:

Doc_T said:
That may be one way to sound 'scientifical'. But it's not more scientific than other methods.
Consider this "Of 375 cultivators polled, more than 75%  said that in their experience, PE seemed more potent on average."

How is that less scientific?




And 9 out of 10 veterinarians agree that you should chew dentine.


--------------------
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Will work for Laetiporus sulphureus culture/spores (or any other Laetiporus actually), :pm: me.

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Edited by fundamentalchair (01/13/10 04:36 PM)

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Potency Project [Re: libertaire]
    #11823621 - 01/13/10 05:09 PM (15 years, 6 days ago)

Took me two tries to get all the way through this thread - I commend the participants in what's gone down so far!  Shrooms for everybody! 

I don't want to derail the conversation going on, but I'd like to suggest an alternative direction for the first crack at the issues:

extractions

Yes, this is a interesting conversation, and yes, it sounds like a cool thing to do, and yes, it could get you some repeatable quantitative results, which is one of the goals.

I've extracted actives many many times into a simple water solution while making tea from fresh shrooms.  And it's blue.  The more blue it is the more potent it is, per volume.  But this is looking at degraded psilocin, not psilocybin, OTOH I'm growing it, so the loss isn't a killer.  Just a thought.

hypotheses

I see that there are a few running around.  It might be good to pick one and test that one as independently as possible?
  • PE is stronger than some other strains
  • PE is the strongest cube (less APE perhaps)
  • PE is stronger than some weak-assed strains
  • PE has limited genetics so the MS doesn't vary as much as those that aren't so in-bred
  • Measuring the actives will correlate directly to the potency of the trips/character of the trips/your favorite aspect of the trips
  • Measuring the actives can be done: easily/reliably/by anybody not just an analytical chemist (why am I not believing this?)
  • Bioassays don't work reliably


Take the last point as it's the one with the most potential, IMHO, to settle the original question without introducing a whole slew of complicating factors. IMHO.  Did I mention this is just IMHO?

bioassays

Bioassays (that means you ingest them, for the clueless) have been used forever to judge the potency/toxicity of hallucinogens, and I mean way back into prehistory. It's just part of what humans do.

There's always somebody who will try anything in a group, this is your first filter for lethal effects.  Beyond that you can form a pretty good idea of what the actives do by simply trying it a few times and taking some notes. 

Give me three samples and I can tell you very easily if its good/bad/indifferent. How do you think people isolate for potency, anyway??

Depending on how often I'm dosing I can tell you within a month or within a week. :wink:

Statistics of large groups will get you a good measure of the potency of two strains, if you test it right.  It has to be double blinded, and it has to be set up so anybody can follow the protocol and come up with results.  So far I don't see that in any of the suggested protocols. :frown:

Here's a method.

Growers sign up to grow samples of two standardized spore syringes using MS and their ordinary methods.  This eliminates all question of isolates and ability to isolate for any given traits - isolates take time and if you do it right multiple test grows.  Leave the genetic issues for another test.

(OK, disclaimer - I've never done a MS grow, since I always select isolates, and my first succesful mushroom grow was in '86 (yeah). :mushroomgrow: But how hard can shooting up a grain jar be, hmm?) 

They harvest the 1st flushes and dry them side by side at the same time (let's hope).  They put aside and vacuum/air tight seal the amounts wanted later on for analysis.  They chop up what are believed to be standard dosages by weight, two of the comparison strain, one of the PE, and make sure they can't tell the difference visually.  They package these however they like, identically, but with a sealed label identifying the strain.

Now comes the fun part.

I can think of about a half-dozen people I know who would probably volunteer to test samples for some quality.  And I'll do it myself.

The next step is how you double-blind.  Get a friend to take the sets of samples and mix them up (in the sets) without you watching.  If you think you can still tell which is which you didn't package them well enough, so do it again until you can't.  Then label them a, b, c in each set, for order of consumption.

Your bioassay volunteers receive them, and according to their own practices try each in turn, with time between for habituation to wear off (or stay the same).  They write down for you what they thought of each one.  You then unblind the labels and hook the comments up to the strains.  This is the result.

If PE is significantly stronger than other cubes (I haven't grown it but was thinking about it), then it should be picked out of the sample well above chance.  Statistical analysis will easily show you if the results exceed chance.  If it's not significantly stronger than it won't.  One of these two is your hypotheses.

I can do a half-dozen of these trials, I'm sure another 99 people here can each do another half-dozen (with no overlap!) - that's 600 samples, and if you don't find a statisical preference for PE in that than there's nothing special about it.

Peace
-PS


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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: Potency Project [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #11823743 - 01/13/10 05:29 PM (15 years, 6 days ago)

Well, that seems to be the most reasonable idea that's been put forward so far.  Definitely seems like it would work quite well, if undertaken on a large scale.  As quantifiable as the extraction idea is, it seems pretty far out of the common persons scope of ability, at least for an accurate reading.  That doesn't mean that it should be ruled out all together, but I think that if we implement both of these ideas to some degree, we'll eventually have the answers we're looking for.

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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Potency Project [Re: libertaire]
    #11832964 - 01/15/10 01:10 AM (15 years, 4 days ago)

And that's why we are going to do 2 different projects: One Beginnier, which involves standarized cultivation, drying and grinding up a whole flush, then weighing doses and performing bioassays (human ingestion and reports) and a one Advanced, involving standardized cultivation, extraction of alkoloids, weighing of alkoloids and reporting back.

Now it seems to me there could be 3 seperate projects, 2 Beginner and 1 Advanced.

The Beginner projects would have one part that just has bioassays (from weighed, uniform doses), and the other "Beginner" project would consist of a simple extraction, weighing of the actives then optional bioassays from resulting extraction. The latter would be the best of both worlds, being quantititive and qualititive.

The Advanced project would be cultivation (like the Beginner one), then extraction using an efficient, high-yield low-lost extraction technique. Then the extracted alkoloids would be weighed (like the Beginner version) and then bioassays would be preformed.

I think this would give the best results to do all 3 of these "sub-projects", but it might be asking for too much.

As a group, I think we should pick what the "Control" variety or varieties should be. I think limiting it to 2-3 varieties would give enough data to make conclusions but still have enough variety to see trends between some different varieties.

I had an idea to choose the "Control" varieties: conduct a poll in "Mushroom Cultivation"

The poll would be called something like " What Strain/variety are you currently growing now? " or " What stain/variety do you typical grow the most?"

Then, from those results, the 2 or 3 varieties that the majority are growing would be the Controls. Then we kindly ask if they would want to partisipate in this project by following standardized (but simple) growing parameters to grow their fruits, and perform the other parts of the experiment.

Does that sound reasonable? Use the majority of what users here are already growing and use that as our control?

Feel Free to Challenge any of my ideas here. This is a community project, and all voices count.

Project Awesome
~ LogicaL Chaos ~

Edited by LogicaL Chaos (01/15/10 01:12 AM)

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Potency Project [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #11833260 - 01/15/10 03:35 AM (15 years, 4 days ago)

I like the way you think Logical.

Here's some thoughts:

I have realized after my tenure here at The Shroomery, this type of research takes time. There is no need to hurry,The Shroomery will be here for quite a while.

For now, what we need are some SAMPLE EXTRACTIONS from people who are willing to test some methods to see which are the most simple and which are the most accurate. Until we figure out our extraction procedures, we won't know WTF we're actually doing.

Meanwhile, we need a volunteer to grow a monotub's worth of an average 'Strain' from a trusted vendor... as vendors go, I suggest Sporeworks ('cause I believe they are selling what they say they're selling)... and make a metric fuck-ton's worth of prints. Then, they can send the prints to me, and I will send a FREE PRINT to everybody who is willing to volunteer in our experiment (I'll pay the postage... at least the first time) as long as the print recipients promise to post their extraction info. This way, we will be pretty sure that people are using the same genetics. They can even post pictures to compare and contrast!

Hell, we can do a new study each month! A new 'Strain' every time! Advanced and beginner teks could apply every time.

All the while, we can ALSO collect ANY extraction info from anybody and everybody no mater what "Strain' or method they use and make a preliminary 'Average-ish' stat.

Thoughts?


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Edited by Rose (01/15/10 03:52 AM)

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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Rose]
    #11833441 - 01/15/10 06:23 AM (15 years, 4 days ago)

I like it.
I'd suggest a 'classic' (PESA, PFC, etc) for the first broadcast strain, just to simplify the genetic spectrum.


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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Doc_T]
    #11833469 - 01/15/10 06:38 AM (15 years, 4 days ago)

I like it too, we're definitely moving forward.  One question, like has been asked before, how will we go about getting prints from PE to spread around?  I assume we would want every stage of this experiment to be as similar as possible, so if we do one thing for one strain, I would think we would have to do the same thing for the next strain.  Would we just do swabs in that case?

What's great about this community is that there is currently an extraction thread going on right now in which people are currently testing some extraction methods as we speak.  We should definitely widen the perspective though and start trying some other extractions, like methanol and others, such as those that allege that an a/b may or may not work.

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InvisibleNecco
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Rose]
    #11834684 - 01/15/10 12:03 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

libertaire, could you post a link to that discussion?

Quote:

Cervantes said:...grow a monotub's worth of an average 'Strain' from a trusted vendor.



This makes sense, but since I'm in a bad state the venders don't vend to me. I'll have to wait it out.

Do you think that would be necessary with PE too? I think it is pretty obvious when you have PE, right?

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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Necco]
    #11835711 - 01/15/10 02:55 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)


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Re: Potency Project [Re: libertaire]
    #11835755 - 01/15/10 03:02 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Cool. I read that thread in its infancy but never went back to it because I didn't know it would develop beyond the original idea. Keeping up with the Shroomery could be a full time job.

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Necco]
    #11835800 - 01/15/10 03:08 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

mubba said:
Quote:

Cervantes said:...grow a monotub's worth of an average 'Strain' from a trusted vendor.



This makes sense, but since I'm in a bad state the venders don't vend to me. I'll have to wait it out.

Do you think that would be necessary with PE too? I think it is pretty obvious when you have PE, right?




I don't think it is AS important with PE... however, both Hawk and SW got their PE back in the day. Ralph's PE probably came, indirectly, from one of the vendors listed above.

If we used THE or SW PE, we'd know more about the lineage of the spores then if we used Ralph's. Ralph is a great vendor, he just got on the PE train late.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Potency Project [Re: libertaire]
    #11835846 - 01/15/10 03:16 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

libertaire said:
I like it too, we're definitely moving forward.  One question, like has been asked before, how will we go about getting prints from PE to spread around? 




We may have to have multiple volunteers grow multiple tubs of PE... just to get enough spores. Swabs are fine but prints would be much better.

Perhaps we should only send PE prints out to people who have already studied another 'Strain' for this project. If someone provides good info about another 'Strain' or does the ADVANCED EXTRACTION method, they will get a PE print to study for the next go 'round.

Thoughts?


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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: Potency Project [Re: Rose]
    #11841163 - 01/16/10 12:43 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

I think that's a good idea.  What if you have a print/swab already that came from one of the trusted vendors lineages?  Would it throw of the process somehow if you just used that one, or are we trying to keep it all in the same specific gene pool's lineage?  I don't really see how it would be that different.

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