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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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reasons TO hate corporate america
    #1178431 - 12/29/02 11:46 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Fifty-one of the world's top 100 economies are corporations
thats not right no matter what way you look at it

Royal Dutch Shell's revenues are greater than Venezuela's Gross Domestic Product. Using this measurement, WalMart is bigger than Indonesia. General Motors is roughly the same size as Ireland, New Zealand and Hungary combined.

There are 63,000 transnational corporations worldwide, with 690,000 foreign affiliates.
Three quarters of all transnational corporations are based in North America, Western Europe and Japan.
Ninety-nine of the 100 largest transnational corporations are from the industrialized countries.


WTO and Global Trade: Who Benefits?
Since it was created in 1995, the WTO has ruled that every environmental policy it has reviewed is an illegal trade barrier that must be eliminated or changed. With one exception, the WTO also has ruled against every health or food safety law it has reviewed.

Nations whose laws were declared trade barriers by the WTO-or that were merely threatened with WTO action-have eliminated or watered down their policies to meet WTO requirements.

Supposedly each of the WTO's 134 member countries have an equal say in governance. In practice, decision-making is dominated by the "Quad": USA; European Union; Japan and Canada.

Each member of the Quad represents its corporations' interests at the WTO. These corporations are often directly involved in writing and shaping WTO rules. In the U.S. this is achieved through official "Trade Advisory Committees" which are dominated by the private sector.

For instance, the US International Trade Administration's Energy Advisory Committee is made up exclusively of representatives of giant oil, mining, gas and utility corporations, including Texaco, Enron, Halliburton and Freeport-McMoran.

The top fifth of the world's people in the richest countries enjoy 82% of the expanding export trade and 68% of foreign investment-the bottom fifth, receive roughly 1%.

Women comprise 70 percent of the world's 1.3 billion absolute poor. Worldwide, they bear the brunt of economic and financial transition and crisis caused by market forces and globalization.




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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1178435 - 12/29/02 11:54 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

#1 reason to hate corporate america is jealousy.
#2 reason is they turned you down for a job and you're bitter
#3 reason is hating to see the other guy make it
#4 reason is having a small pee pee and needing somthing to take out the frustration on
#5 reason you hate to see businesses give well paying jobs to millions of people and would prefer to work on communal farms ala Stalin


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1178440 - 12/29/02 11:57 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Royal dutch shell are real scum of the earth material. Check out what they've done to the Orgoni people in Nigeria. Ken Saro-wiwa.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1178447 - 12/30/02 12:07 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Alex, oil companies aren't exactly renowned for their ethics. That's also completely illrelevant to this discussion.

They give lots of people jobs. People like me and millions of others. The origional poster seems to say in essence "Lets hate them because they succede." Such a statement reeks of jealousy.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1178632 - 12/30/02 04:00 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

That's also completely illrelevant to this discussion.

Of course it isn't. The post is "reasons to hate corporate america".

They give lots of people jobs

So did Auschwitz. I've never been jealous of auschwitz concentration camp guards and i hope you arn't either. When something is wrong, it's wrong. No matter how successful it is.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1178637 - 12/30/02 04:04 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

normally, those that hate corporations (unless you're an Enron employee) are usually jealous that others have become successful and they have not.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineComponent
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america *DELETED* [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1178723 - 12/30/02 05:01 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by Component

Reason for deletion: ...



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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Component]
    #1178798 - 12/30/02 05:37 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

****I worked for 3 diff corporations on the bottom of the ladder. The difference in pay compensation is phenomenal. ****

Of course it is, you're on the bottom of the ladder.

****I ain't going back so I can work to make others richer than I can dream of****

That's the right attitude to have if you're an entrepreneur, if you'r just looking to make the same as the others with no intention of going out on your own then your attitude is poor.

****I did the trench work and then the head honcho people do very little and get paid too much. ***

I find it funny that those on the bottom of the ladder think that those on top do nothing..this always gives me a chuckle. I've been on both ends and the work on the bottom has very little consequence if not done, while the tasks of those on the upper ladder are very closely watched.

****Then they give money to charity like the Hollywood fucks and think they did some good for others, but they never roll up their sleeves and get dirty.****

that's a generalization but not all companies act this way.

****They would have regular parking lots for the workers then covered parking for all the big people's Porsche's, Mercedez, Jaguars, and BMW's****

Welcome to the real world. If i owned my company (which i do not) i would eliminate the parking situation, but this is still just a benifit incentive, nothing more. Maybe when you work your way UP the ladder you'll have your parking spot. personally i don't care if i have a spot or not.

****I am looking at smaller firms of 20 people or less where the boss cares for his employees and actually has contact with them everyday and asks 'How are you'. ****

that's not a bad goal to have. I got lucky and ended up in a big company that treats their employees quite nicely.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1179044 - 12/30/02 07:59 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I find it funny that those on the bottom of the ladder think that those on top do nothing

I've been at both. Worked with guys earning 10,000 a year and millionaires. The vast majority of the directors were bone idle tossers who wouldn't know a hard days work if it kicked them in the balls.

As Marlon Brando told Val Kilmer "Never confuse the size of your talent with the size of your paycheque".


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1181112 - 12/31/02 05:47 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Your post shows a complete lack of understanding on economics, business, and politics. Perhaps there is a reason you remain at the bottom of the corporate food chain. I have worked for two large firms, each time starting out at the near the bottom, and I have worked my way up as far as I could go without my degree. If you think the work gets any easier as you progress you are dead wrong. While the higer paying jobs may not be physically taxing, they are a hell of a lot more stressefull, require a lot more mental abilities, and carry a large amount of responsibility.

I am going to do something rare and agree with Rain_Gun
#1 reason to hate corporate america is jealousy.
#2 reason is they turned you down for a job and you're bitter
#3 reason is hating to see the other guy make it
#4 reason is having a small pee pee and needing somthing to take out the frustration on
#5 reason you hate to see businesses give well paying jobs to millions of people and would prefer to work on communal farms ala Stalin



--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Anonymous

Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1181357 - 12/31/02 08:43 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Consider this: almost everything you buy came from a large American corporation. Computers and computer parts come from corporations. The food you buy comes from a corporation, even if you shop at a health food store. Your clothes are made by some of the most powerful corporations in the world. Your house was built by a corporation. Many corporations donate money to special interest groups such as NORML.

Not all of this applies to everyone here, but I guarantee everyone here has benifitted from corporate America. Sure small businesses are more romantic, but without large corporations, we would be nowhere near technologically advanced. You wouldn't have a car unless you were really rich, and we wouldn't have the much cleaner and more efficient vehicles that we have today.

PS: Corporate America is the same as corporate Germany or corporate Canada, all are businesses that profit from the less fortunate (people who aren't CEOs). "Greedy corporations" are not only found in this country.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Anonymous]
    #1181371 - 12/31/02 08:48 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

How dare you suggest that the US isn't single-handedly responsible for all the worlds ills.

Stop it immediately or perhaps common sense, good judgement and reasoning will become more prevalent.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (12/31/02 08:49 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Anonymous]
    #1181419 - 12/31/02 09:10 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

but without large corporations, we would be nowhere near technologically advanced.

Nah, there really isn't any technological advancements that weren't funded massively by the taxpayer. The internet, computers, you name it the taxpayer poured in billions for the research. Instead of putting patents on it and earning the money back the rights were pissed away to private corporations to rake in the profits. We pay for the research, they get the profits. They arn't totally stupid these corporations!


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1181429 - 12/31/02 09:13 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, but you all now have bough a computer, or built a computer from boughten parts. All came from a corporation. If you are so against this "corporate evil," why do you support the companies that are apparently stealing money from the taxpayers?

Also, last time I checked, the government wasn't giving money to Microsoft to build Windows, or NVIDIA to build GeForce chips, or Intel to build the fastest personal processors on the planet.


Edited by stonedfish (12/31/02 09:14 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Anonymous]
    #1181536 - 12/31/02 10:08 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

why do you support the companies that are apparently stealing money from the taxpayers?

Because the government pissed away the rights to private companies. Incidentally they've done a lot worse than rob taxpayers - ead up on IBM's key role in the holocaust. Without IBM it's unlikely the holocaust could ever have taken place.

or Intel to build the fastest personal processors on the planet.

The initial research is what costs the bulk of the money. Refining a processor to work at 2GHz instead of 1GHz when you already have an enormous market isn't going to bankrupt anybody. Pouring billions into a technology you have no idea will work or even have a market is the risky part. That's the part we pay for.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1181548 - 12/31/02 10:13 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

****Without IBM it's unlikely the holocaust could ever have taken place.****

i know because hitler was such a nice guy influenced by american corporations....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1181555 - 12/31/02 10:16 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Please show what percentage of Intel's R&D funds came for the government funding historically and currently. Also, please show what percentage of Intel's current revenue goes towards R&D. Some facts and figures would go a long way towards bolstering your claim. (Sources please)


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1181565 - 12/31/02 10:22 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)


i know because hitler was such a nice guy influenced by american corporations....

No because they worked hand in hand with the Nazi's on the Hollerith punch card which sealed the jews fate. Read up on it.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Evolving]
    #1181569 - 12/31/02 10:24 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Please show what percentage of Intel's R&D

Irrelevant. We are talking about the development of computers. Please list how much Intel contributed to research and development into computers throughout the 1940's and 50's. Sources please.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinedjamor
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1181624 - 12/31/02 10:54 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

It's interesting that you bring up corporate involvement in the holocaust. Here's a link that implicates the Bush family;
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/carlyle.html


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1181665 - 12/31/02 11:24 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Please show what percentage of Intel's R&D

Irrelevant. We are talking about the development of computers. Please list how much Intel contributed to research and development into computers throughout the 1940's and 50's. Sources please.




Gee Alex, how soon you forget your own statements...
Quote:

The internet, computers, you name it the taxpayer poured in billions for the research. Instead of putting patents on it and earning the money back the rights were pissed away to private corporations to rake in the profits. We pay for the research, they get the profits. They arn't totally stupid these corporations!




Quote:

The initial research is what costs the bulk of the money. Refining a processor to work at 2GHz instead of 1GHz when you already have an enormous market isn't going to bankrupt anybody. Pouring billions into a technology you have no idea will work or even have a market is the risky part. That's the part we pay for.




Please gives us the facts on how much government money has gone into research for Intel and Microsoft. Please provide some facts to back up your assertions, why do you now want to limit it to the 40's and 50's? (Did all R&D stop after 1959?) Must be because you again lack the resources or facts to back up your statements.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1181671 - 12/31/02 11:28 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I'd be surprised if you weren't aware that Intel wasn't founded until the late 60's.

I'd be interested in reading your sources as well. How about it?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1182187 - 12/31/02 08:45 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)


"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and the cause me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corperations have been enthroned, and era of corruption in high places will follow, ... and the money-power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the republic is destroyed." - President Lincoln sent a letter to Col. Williams F. Elkins


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And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1183797 - 01/02/03 01:12 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

****No because they worked hand in hand with the Nazi's on the Hollerith punch card which sealed the jews fate. Read up on it*****

oh, because we all know hitler wouldn't have killed anyone without his trusty punchcards....i'd say read up on it but i would just settle for you to read anything.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1183799 - 01/02/03 01:13 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Alex, will you ever site sources?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineCrowHeart
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Anonymous]
    #1183809 - 01/02/03 01:30 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"Corporate America is the same as corporate Germany or corporate Canada, all are businesses that profit from the less fortunate (people who aren't CEOs). "Greedy corporations" are not only found in this country. "

True, but they are found in that country, easier than in any other, oh sure corporation have inprove our ay of life, but there are to many things to rebel against...For example, did you know that nike pays more money to Tiger Woods to promote te brand, than it pays to all, ALL it's workers in indonesia??? I do not find that fair, and you can say it's just bussiness, but is still sucks, i try my best not to buy anything from u.s.a. (i don't write it in capital leters because i do not like that particular country very much), it's hard, but it can be done.


--------------------
What the hell am I supposed to write here???


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: CrowHeart]
    #1184023 - 01/02/03 05:06 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)


u.s.a. (i don't write it in capital leters because i do not like that particular country very much),


portugal......I don't really like that country much


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1184087 - 01/02/03 05:54 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Alex, will you ever site sources?

There's a big book called "IBM and the holocaust". You can buy it at amazon...why do i have this feeling you won't tho.... :smile:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: CrowHeart]
    #1184105 - 01/02/03 06:01 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

"nike pays more money to Tiger Woods to promote te brand, than it pays to all, ALL it's workers in indonesia??? I do not find that fair, and you can say it's just bussiness, but is still sucks




Um...since when has life ever been fair? Furthermore, Tiger Woods sells the shoes that Nike makes, the workers do not. It is business, and thats how the real world works, get over it.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1184110 - 01/02/03 06:05 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Tiger Woods sells the shoes that Nike makes

Not to me he fucking doesn't. And if anyone is so stupid that they'll pay $150 for a shoe that costs $3 to make they deserve everything they get.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1184367 - 01/02/03 08:27 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

****There's a big book called "IBM and the holocaust". ***

we all know you can't read alex.

***why do i have this feeling you won't tho.... *****

i won't, but why not cite it? Or is it that you truly have no idea what you say?

weren't you the numbnut that got down on everyone for not knowing about the Bolivian water crises? (where you forgot to cite sources there)...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: CrowHeart]
    #1184391 - 01/02/03 08:42 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

****u.s.a. (i don't write it in capital leters because i do not like that particular country very much), ****

How ever will we get by without your approval? :smirk:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1184718 - 01/02/03 10:21 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

i won't

No surprises there! Clueless and proud of it, what a combination.

but why not cite it?

If i had to cite everything you don't know about I would be here till doomsday. I have to pitch posts assuming a certain intelligence and knowledge level. I'm clearly pitching way too high for you. I'm sorry.

weren't you the numbnut that got down on everyone for not knowing about the Bolivian water crises?

Oh right, because I know things I'm a "numbnut"? Strange. I always thought it was the other way around. What a funny belief system you have  :laugh: 


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1184767 - 01/02/03 10:37 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

****If i had to cite everything you don't know about I would be here till doomsday. ****

You mean you can't cite it because you don't know.  Keep it up Alex you're living up to the dolt i've always known you'd be. :grin:

****Oh right, because I know things I'm a "numbnut"? ****

No, you're a numbnut for other reasons but i digress.  You pick out things noone has ever heard of or just make them up and expect the whole world to be able to understand that pea-brain of yours without citing a source or even a general area where your info came from.  When people say things like: 2,299,300 people were killed in russia i'd like to see where that info comes from...... but maybe that's beyond your mental grasp..


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (01/02/03 10:38 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1184792 - 01/02/03 10:46 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

You mean you can't cite it because you don't know

I just cited it you dolt. What are you talking about?

You pick out things noone has ever heard of

IBM's part in the holocaust isn't exactly obscure. To anyone who reads something other than Dan Dare comics anyway...


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1184809 - 01/02/03 10:50 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

****I just cited it you dolt. What are you talking about?****

About 99% of your posts that state a stat.....1%, atleast you're improving

***To anyone who reads something other than Dan Dare comics anyway... ***

never heard of them comics...


--------------------

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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1185831 - 01/02/03 07:11 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Well thanks for letting me know. My life is now complete knowing you  do not wear Nikes.  :wink: :grin: And if somebody feels like paying $150 for a pair of shoes, what business is it of yours or anybody elses?


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1185904 - 01/02/03 08:12 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

never heard of them comics...

I'm not surprised. You've never heard of much have you.


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1186145 - 01/03/03 12:53 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

****You've never heard of much have you. ****

I heard you were a dolt, so it's not all that bad...typical limmey.


--------------------

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Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1186183 - 01/03/03 01:58 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I just said that for 2 reasons:
1- to show my contempt
2-so that nobody felt the need to correct me...


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OfflineCrowHeart
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1186186 - 01/03/03 02:00 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I know it is, and trust me i got over it a long time ago, still it's not something i like, pardon me for expressing myself, I know it's hard to do in america, but hey, i'm Portuguese, get over it...


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: CrowHeart]
    #1186187 - 01/03/03 02:01 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

No offense but i really don't care why you said it....words say a lot about people, hell read Alex's posts and you'll see what i'm talking about.


--------------------

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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1186188 - 01/03/03 02:02 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

You are in your right to do so.

BTW how do you feel about Iraq?


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: CrowHeart]
    #1186205 - 01/03/03 02:24 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Iraq? It's a nice place to visit but i wouldn't want to live there........


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: CrowHeart]
    #1186471 - 01/03/03 06:00 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Well why do you not like it? Tiger Woods does more for the company than the laborers do, so he is worth more to Nike, therefore he commands a higher salary. I really do not see how it isn't fair.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1186483 - 01/03/03 06:06 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I was under the impression that tiger woods didn't make shoes.

Guess I was wrong...


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1186489 - 01/03/03 06:08 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Have you hever been there? in fact, have you hever travelled to an arabic country?



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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: CrowHeart]
    #1186665 - 01/03/03 07:14 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)


BTW how do you feel about Iraq?

Hussein sounds like a scumbag. He is not good for the Middle East.

Why is America trying to nail Saddam, in my opinion? Revenge and Oil.

Should America invade Iraq, in my opinion? No. We shouldn't have anything to
do with the Middle East. It is a cesspool of religious zealots, totalitarian
theocracies, and outright dictatorships.


RandalFlagg




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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: CrowHeart]
    #1186682 - 01/03/03 07:19 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

As a matter of fact i have...i was in the Persian Gulf War.

I've been to Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Turkey...have you?


--------------------

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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: CrowHeart]
    #1186711 - 01/03/03 07:26 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

*sigh* never mind. It's like having a discussion with a child.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1186723 - 01/03/03 07:30 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Why? Because i'm right?


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: CrowHeart]
    #1186729 - 01/03/03 07:32 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, because you are right.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1186730 - 01/03/03 07:32 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Turkey and Morroco.
I would like to visit more arabic countries but with this climate of impending war it's kinda hard.


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1186858 - 01/03/03 08:20 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I see...


Sorry for my inconvinience then, didn't mean to be rude.


Have a nice day


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1186864 - 01/03/03 08:21 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Scary...


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1186986 - 01/03/03 09:09 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I heard you were a dolt, so it's not all that bad...typical limmey

Hush.


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: CrowHeart]
    #1187080 - 01/03/03 09:37 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

***I would like to visit more arabic countries ***

I have no desire to go back there, however i must say we were treated pretty good when we were there...either that or it was the M-16/M203 i was carrying while pulling Guard duty...if ya go try the Arabic tea (at least that's what we called it) it's spicy and keeps ya going.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1187095 - 01/03/03 09:44 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

however i must say we were treated pretty good when we were there

If only you'd treated your allies the same. The americans killed more allied troops than the Iraqi's did. Utterly clueless.


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1187228 - 01/03/03 10:30 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

wah frickin wah!!


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1187844 - 01/03/03 02:38 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)


If only you'd treated your allies the same. The americans killed more allied troops than the Iraqi's did. Utterly clueless.


God Alex....you grasp at anything you can in order to disparage America. This
shows that you are absolutely possessed by your biases.

American troops NEVER intentionally killed our allies. Unfortunately in wars,
mistakes happen. I'd be willing to bet that friendly fire incidents have occurred in
every war that has ever happened.

RandalFlagg


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1187857 - 01/03/03 02:44 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

*coughs*
following lyrics are taken from the Song "Boom!" by SOAD
"I've been walking through your streets,
Where all you money's earning,
Where all your biulding's crying,
And clueless neckties working,
Revolving fake lawn houses,
Housing all your fears,
Desensitized by TV,
overbearing advertising,
God of consumerism,
And all your crooked pictures,
Looking good, mirrorism,
Filtering information,
For the public eye,
Designed for profiteering,
Your neighboor, what a guy.

BOOM, BOOM, BOOM, BOOM,
Every time you drop the bomb,
You kill the god your child has born.
BOOM, BOOM, BOOM, BOOM.

Modern globalization,
Coupled with condemnations,
Unnecessary death,
Matador corporations,
Puppeting your frustrations,
With the blinded flag,
Manufacturing consent
Is the name of the game,
The bottom line is money,
Nobody gives a fuck.
4000 hungry children die per hour,
from starvation,
while billions spent on bombs,
creating death showers."

True enough in my opinion


--------------------
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-

While the Trees Grow out of your Skin, Can i plant you so a forest will grow?
"When you want it, it goes away to Fast. Times you hate it always seem to last" - Marilyn Manson


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1188890 - 01/03/03 10:01 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

you grasp at anything you can in order to disparage America

I love america. I just don't like the people running it.

shows that you are absolutely possessed by your biases.

I'm biased against killing innocent people yeah. I would hope you are too.

American troops NEVER intentionally killed our allies.

It's about taking care and finding out what you are shooting at before you open fire. If you are gung ho you don't tend to do this.

mistakes happen

Just seems the american fighting forces tend to make an awful lot of "mistakes". I knew a guy who went over there and he was saying the brits were more terrified of being killed by the americans than they ever were of the Iraqi's.


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1189149 - 01/04/03 03:05 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Agreed. The thing that pisses me is the hipocrisy of the u.s. government...



"War on terrorism"... indeed


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1189154 - 01/04/03 03:08 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

in morocco they also drink tea, probably the same.


I wasn't carrying an M-16/M203, but i was well treated anyway, the thing that bothers me about the middle-east is that everyone has their minds made, for the majority of the western world muslim equals terrorist...




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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1189157 - 01/04/03 03:10 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Of course accidents happen, but they souldn't. Even more so when the u.s. prides itself on having the best equipment, fail-proof equipment...


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1189181 - 01/04/03 03:38 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)


American troops NEVER intentionally killed our allies.


It's about taking care and finding out what you are shooting at before you open fire. If you are gung ho you don't tend to do this.

When a huge military operation is undertaken, mistakes will happen. It
is tragic, but it is also inevitable.



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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1190357 - 01/04/03 03:08 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

If only you'd treated your allies the same. The americans killed more allied troops than the Iraqi's did. Utterly clueless.




This means we did a damn efficient job liberating Kuwait. Must you twist EVERYTHING to your end?


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1190848 - 01/04/03 07:44 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

who put saddam in power in the first place

the CIA!!!!!!


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1190849 - 01/04/03 07:44 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

who put saddam in power in the first place

the CIA!!!!!!


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1190861 - 01/04/03 07:53 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Nah, there really isn't any technological advancements that weren't funded massively by the taxpayer.

Incorrect.

The internet, computers, you name it...

I'll name a few. The steam engine, gasoline engine, diesel engine, Wankel engine, alternating current, electrical generators, batteries, aniline dyes, synthetic fibers, lasers, radio, television, telesopes, microscopes, elevators, power looms, the discovery of the germ theory of disease, artificial hearts, the pacemaker, the lightbulb, the telephone, the record player, the floppy disk drive, velcro, the zipper, video games, the Walkman, the cell phone, peanut butter, the discovery of insulin... all occurred with no tax money being spent.

As for the internet, the government provided some money for the first arpanet. No tax dollars went into the development of the protocol that makes the modern internet possible, nor into the hundreds of billions of dollars of cables, routers, hubs and servers that comprise the internet.

Government funding of computers ended with Univac, or maybe even with Eniac.

Instead of putting patents on it and earning the money back the rights were pissed away to private corporations to rake in the profits.

Incorrect again. Inventions are patented by governments.

pinky


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Phred]
    #1191135 - 01/04/03 10:00 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I'll name a few

Tell me something pink. Why do you think enormous advances are made in technology every time there's a war? Do you think private corporations increase investment in research and development during wars? Or do you think the driver is the government being able to spray around massive amounts of money to private corporations in the name of "defence"?

btw, are you as sure that none of the developments you mention had no public money as you were that mcdonalds hadn't? Lasers have never had any public money invested in their research and development? Handed over to hi-tech corporations as part of the "defence" budget? Are you positive pink?

Inventions are patented by governments

Do you think if Bill Gates had been involved in the development of the internet to the extent the government was he would have been so lax in getting a cut of the profits? Think about it.


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Phred]
    #1191144 - 01/04/03 10:03 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Here's the first laser company i found on the net. Must be the odd one out cos this one recieves government funding for R & D. Wonder how many we could find if we looked pink?

In 1985, Gemfire's predecessor, Deacon Research, was founded by Dave Deacon and Olive Lee. During its 12-year history, Deacon grew to over 30 employees, successfully completed dozens of government-funded and privately-funded programs, and pursued an aggressive intellectual property strategy that resulted in 23 issued patents and 29 patents pending.

In 1995, Deacon Research spun out a separate company to pursue its flat-panel display technology. This company, called Gemfire, received seed funding from two premier venture capital firms, and demonstrated the fundamental physics of a revolutionary new display. Gemfire recombined with Deacon Research in mid-1997, and continues to work on government-supported research while developing new integrated optics technologies.

http://www.mdatechnology.net/techsearch.asp?articleid=432


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1192107 - 01/05/03 10:22 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Why do you think enormous advances are made in technology every time there's a war? Do you think private corporations increase investment in research and development during wars?

In times of war, there is naturally incentive for some companies to focus on war-related technology, because the possibility of selling that technology immediately (even if it is still in the developmental stage) is much greater. It is also much easier to receive government funding for research and development.

That doesn't mean that "there really isn't any technological advancements that weren't funded massively by the taxpayer," it just means that some technological advancements that appear to have potential applications in weaponry or intelligence gathering may end up receiving tax dollars.

Lasers have never had any public money invested in their research and development? Handed over to hi-tech corporations as part of the "defence" budget? Are you positive pink?

Lasers were invented with no tax dollars being spent. Look, YOU are the one who claimed (to Evolving) that the initial discovery of a technology was what mattered. YOU are the one who claimed (incorrectly) that the majority of money spent on a technology was during its discovery and early stages. Have governments spent money on laser technology? Of course they have. Have they spent more than the sum total of all private researchers and developers all over the world have spent to date? Of course they haven't.

Do you think if Bill Gates had been involved in the development of the internet to the extent the government was he would have been so lax in getting a cut of the profits? Think about it.

Unexpired patents held by governments on products still being used today are still receiving royalties today. You seem not to understand how patent and copyright law works. One cannot patent an IDEA, only a specific invention.

pinky


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1192114 - 01/05/03 10:25 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

****the CIA!!!!!!*****

Are you wearing your tin-foil hat again?


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1192141 - 01/05/03 10:40 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Alex123 cuts and pastes:

"In 1985, Gemfire's predecessor, Deacon Research, was founded by Dave Deacon and Olive Lee. During its 12-year history, Deacon grew to over 30 employees, successfully completed dozens of government-funded and privately-funded programs..."

Gemfire didn't invent the laser in 1985, Alex. No taxpayer money went into the discovery of lasers. For the first few years it was a laboratory curiosity, with most of its eventual applications still unconsidered. Did government research take place in the area of using lasers as weapons or communications tools once the basic development of the laser had reached a point where such applications seemed feasible? Certainly. Did government research take place in the area of using manned heavier-than-air flying vehicles as weapons platforms? Yes, but no government money went into the invention of the airplane -- that was strictly the province of such visionaries of the Wright brothers and contemporaries of theirs working as private citizens with private funds. Did government research take place into the possible use of LSD as a debriefing tool for interrogators? Yes, but no government money went into its discovery... Albert Hofmann working as a research company (Sandoz) chemist discovered it.

Your claim was "there really isn't any technological advancements that weren't funded massively by the taxpayer." This is incorrect. Some refinements of some advancements involved some tax dollars, true. Before there can be a refinement of a new technology, there must first be a new technology to refine.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Phred]
    #1193762 - 01/05/03 08:19 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Lasers were invented with no tax dollars being spent

Are you quite positive that in going from theory to working production the laser had no taxdollar input? Absolutely sure? As sure as you were about mcdonalds? Oh pink, this is getting monotonous...

In times of war, there is naturally incentive for some companies to focus on war-related technology

Because the government funds them? Do you include the cold war and the "war against terror" in this?



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Phred]
    #1193820 - 01/05/03 08:39 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Have governments spent money on laser technology? Of course they have. Have they spent more than the sum total of all private researchers and developers all over the world have spent to date? Of course they haven't.

Sources please.

The star wars budget - which included laser research - was pretty big you know.


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1193973 - 01/05/03 09:35 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Invertigo how does it feel to be an american with "no fucking cluie what his government is up to half the time and the way its screwing him and the rest of the american people and the rest of the world"

read Invertigo READ do a little research if I am so wrong(as long as you dont have AOL) and if you wanna talk shit about tin foil hats ask me where I read my material first


1963-CIA recruits Iraqi Baath Party (including a young Saddam Hussein) to assasinate the new leader, Abdul-Karim Kassem. After the coup, the CIA gave the Baath a long list of communists and others to liquidate. During the 1980s the CIA would go on to help provide weapons to both Iraq and Iran in a war that would kill over one million people.


did you quick CNN - style attetion waver here
1963-CIA recruits Iraqi Baath Party (including a young Saddam Hussein) to assasinate the new leader, Abdul-Karim Kassem. After the coup, the CIA gave the Baath a long list of communists and others to liquidate. During the 1980s the CIA would go on to help provide weapons to both Iraq and Iran in a war that would kill over one million people.
get it??????????????????????????????


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1194277 - 01/06/03 01:17 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

* reply button (learn it)

****Invertigo how does it feel to be an american with "no fucking cluie what his government is up to half the time and the way its screwing him and the rest of the american people and the rest of the world" *****

ha ha.....loosen up the tin foil hat my man....the black helicopters are circling. (all you nutbags blame it on the CIA)

****After the coup, the CIA gave the Baath a long list of communists and others to liquidate****

Liquidate? ha

*****During the 1980s the CIA would go on to help provide weapons to both Iraq and Iran in a war that would kill over one million people.*****

a million muslim radicals?, i don't see a problem here....

****did you quick CNN - style attetion waver here ****

I speak english, try using it....

****get it?????????????????????????????? ****

i missed the part where the CIA put Suddam in charge, apparantly so did you.


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1194480 - 01/06/03 04:16 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Are you quite positive that in going from theory to working production the laser had no taxdollar input?

Yes. The first working lasers were actually MASERS, invented at Bell Labs by Shawlow and Townes in the late Fifties. The first optical laser was patented by Theodore Maiman of Stanford University in 1960. The only difference between the two is the frequency of electromagnetic radiation at which they operate. Masers and Lasers received patents based on working models.

You can spend the next few days if you wish frantically searching Google for the history of the basic research that eventually led to the invention of the laser. Perhaps at some point in time you may come across some snippet somewhere that shows that Bell (a publicly traded corporation) did some business with the US government, or that Stanford University received some tax dollars, and you will twist this to mean that the invention of lasers was "funded by the taxpayers". You will then gleefully dismiss the dozens of other non-taxpayer-funded technological advances I listed as being irrelevant, since you have "proved pinky is a liar".

Because the government funds them? Do you include the cold war and the "war against terror" in this?

Well, Alex, the way things are set up at the moment, the only customers for things like aircraft carriers, nuclear-powered submarines, artillery pieces, tanks, and spy satellites happen to be governments, whether those governments are at war or not. It therefore follows that the only dollars defense contractors receive when they sell their products are taxpayer dollars, just as the dollars the builders of a police station receive are taxpayer dollars and the salaries of policeman are paid with taxpayer dollars. What's your point?

pinky


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Phred]
    #1194575 - 01/06/03 05:16 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Well as suggested I thought id have a little look see on Google, especially after your fallacious comments made about the UK coal industry.

Seems Townes worked for Bell during the second world war but was actually at Columbia university when he performed the experiments on Maser's for which he later won the Noble Prize..

Source: http://www.invent.org/hall_of_fame/146.html

Call me silly but I beleive that Universities doing reasearch such as this are definitely "looked after" by the government, as it is in their interest. This would sort of back up Alex's  claim I suppose. I dont have any evidence to back this claim up yet so Im not going to parade it around as if its a hard fact.  :grin: 


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: GazzBut]
    #1194598 - 01/06/03 05:31 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

well it didnt take long in the end....

Another quote from the web: "Some friends called the laboratory in which the Townes (1954) group had been working for two years on the device and tried to insist that Townes stop this nonsense and wastage of government money, they had by then spent about $30,000 of the grant money. After the first successful operation of the microwave laser, Townes, Gordon and some other students came up with the name M.A.S.E.R. : Microwave Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation. (sceptics still made fun of them and read it as : Means of Acquiring Support for Expensive Research !)
Townes, Basov and Prokhorov won the Nobel Prize in 1964 for their work on both microwave and optical lasers."

oooooh dear Government money is all over it pinky!  Quick get the brush and lift the carpet eh?? :grin:

Source: http://home.achilles.net/~jtalbot/history/ammonia.html   


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: GazzBut]
    #1194614 - 01/06/03 05:43 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

oooooh dear Government money is all over it pinky! Quick get the brush and lift the carpet eh??

Same as it ever was... :grin:


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: GazzBut]
    #1194775 - 01/06/03 01:57 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

oooooh dear Government money is all over it pinky! Quick get the brush and lift the carpet eh??

LMFAO :cool: 


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: GazzBut]
    #1195746 - 01/06/03 07:42 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

oooooh dear Government money is all over it pinky! Quick get the brush and lift the carpet eh??

Thank you for providing the link. I was in error, then, to include lasers in my first list. Scratch one from the quick list of thirty technological advances I provided. We are left with twenty-nine (out of a possible list of thousands) of technological advances which occurred with no funds from the taxpayer, despite Alex's claim that "Nah, there really isn't any technological advancements that weren't funded massively by the taxpayer."

Here is an amended list of technological developments that disprove his claim: the steam engine, gasoline engine, diesel engine, Wankel engine, alternating current, electrical generators, batteries, aniline dyes, synthetic fibers, radio, television, telescopes, microscopes, elevators, power looms, the discovery of the germ theory of disease, artificial hearts, the pacemaker, the lightbulb, the telephone, the record player, the floppy disk drive, velcro, the zipper, video games, the Walkman, the cell phone, peanut butter, the discovery of insulin...

The truth is that technological advances occurred long before governments started using tax dollars to fund research, and the majority of new technology is still developed privately. Note that I don't deny that technological advances are made by researchers using mainly tax dollars to fund their efforts -- of course there are. But I repeat that to say "there really isn't ANY" technological advance made by private efforts is incorrect.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Phred]
    #1195795 - 01/06/03 08:06 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Thank you for providing the link. I was in error, then, to include lasers in my first list.

LMAO!!  :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

Why should we trust anything you say? You insisted mcdonalds "have never recieved a DIME in public money". You were proved wrong. You made a length post dismissing the idea that lasers had recieved public money. You were proved wrong. Your posts are clearly a waste of bandwidth.

It's YOUR responsibility to have some backup to your claims. Don't just make up bullshit lists in the hope you'll get away with one or two. Try and make a detailed case preferably with sources. Then you might be taken seriously. Clearly your own knowledge of the subject is completly worthless. 


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Phred]
    #1195861 - 01/06/03 08:33 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

technological developments

You sure radio has never had any government input? synthetic fibres? microscopes? You'll need to back a lot of those up before we can think of taking anything you say except with an enormous pinch of salt.


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1195936 - 01/06/03 08:58 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Why should we trust anything you say? You insisted mcdonalds "have never recieved a DIME in public money". You were proved wrong. You made a length post dismissing the idea that lasers had recieved public money. You were proved wrong. Your posts are clearly a waste of bandwidth.

Actually, the public money went to MASERs, the precursors to lasers. But since I believe the two are so similar, I conceded the point.

I predicted you would react this way, Alex: You will then gleefully dismiss the dozens of other non-taxpayer-funded technological advances I listed as being irrelevant, since you have "proved pinky is a liar".

One of your standard tactics is to nitpick and to evade the principle being discussed, either because you are honestly too dim to think in abstract principles or because you are too craven to engage in honest debate.

In the case of "corporate welfare", you think you can get away with dismissing the several dozen examples provided by myself and Evolving, just because I had unkowingly included a single corporation which had at some point received government money. What if I had written "Burger King" rather than MacDonald's? What kind of twisting could you have engaged in then?

Then, on the technological advancement issue, you have somehow managed to convince yourself that you can now safely dismiss the twenty-nine examples left after lasers have been eliminated. What kind of squirming could you have done if I had written "refrigeration" rather than "lasers"?

To pounce on an inadvertent slipup and try to use it to justify the dismissal of all other evidence that contradicts your stance is both intellectually dishonest and, quite frankly, extremely tedious.

It's as if you had claimed "there are no female members of the Shroomery" and I threw together a list of fifty female Shroomerites, one of whom was named "HotStuff", not realizing that "HotStuff" was actually a male. You would then gleefully prance about and gibber that my slipup "proved" there were no female Shroomerites.

Despite what you apparently think, Alex, most of the readers of this forum are not imbeciles -- they are intelligent enough to detect your evasions. I know you have a personal dislike for ME, but can you not at least TRY to show some respect for the intelligence of those who read these discussions?

pinky


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1195960 - 01/06/03 09:08 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

You sure radio has never had any government input?

Re-read my previous post -- "Some refinements of some advancements involved some tax dollars, true. Before there can be a refinement of a new technology, there must first be a new technology to refine."

Your claim was "Nah, there really isn't any technological advancements that weren't funded massively by the taxpayer." Using government funds to increase the sensitivity of an existing radio receiver twofold, or to extend its transmission range, or to increase the number of channels it receives is refining an existing technology.

pinky


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1196655 - 01/07/03 04:58 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)


Why should we trust anything you say?

Your posts are clearly a waste of bandwidth.

Watch your tongue Alex. One mistake(or several for that matter) does invalidate
everything that a person says.



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Phred]
    #1196752 - 01/07/03 05:53 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

What if I had written "Burger King" rather than MacDonald's? What kind of twisting could you have engaged in then?

Burger king received corporate welfare too.

"It's time we stopped these corporations from feeding at the public trough. ," said Bass. "Many recipients of MAP funds -- including Burger King, Campbell Soup, General Mills, Hershey Foods, Ocean Spray Cranberries, Quaker Oats, and Tyson Foods -- can more than afford to pay for their own advertising. They don't need the U.S. government acting as their ad agency."

http://www.house.gov/bass/pr062498.html

Then, on the technological advancement issue, you have somehow managed to convince yourself that you can now safely dismiss the twenty-nine examples left after lasers have been eliminated.

Remember you made a lengthy post insisting I was wrong and that there was no government input into lasers. You have provided zero evidence on the other examples and I don't have the time or the inclination to examine every case. I picked two at random and you were completly and utterly wrong. Today you stated a third - Burger King - as usual you were completly wrong again. I think people can make their own minds up about the reliability of your claims.

To pounce on an inadvertent slipup

Nothing inadvertent. You spent half a page insisting i was wrong and making pointless slurs against me in your lasers response. You've done the same thing today. Not a word of contrition for your gross hopeless lies.

Despite what you apparently think, Alex, most of the readers of this forum are not imbeciles

LMAO  :grin:

Do you think this is going to get everyone on your side? Saying I've called them all imbeciles? When did i make this claim pray tell?

I know you have a personal dislike for ME

Bullshit. I've never met you. You say a lot of stupid and inaccurate things but you may be a very nice guy apart from that. 


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1197321 - 01/07/03 10:46 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Holy shit Alpo.... you posted a link. And an interesting one at that.

I knew you could do it. Bet it feels good. Keep it up.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1197527 - 01/07/03 12:15 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Pity your post is as useless as ever.


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1197833 - 01/07/03 01:45 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Well it actually was interesting even if you have zero sense of humor.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1198091 - 01/07/03 03:17 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Alex doesn't have a sense of humor......he's british :grin:


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1198836 - 01/07/03 07:55 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Another two carrot-top fans I see...


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1198940 - 01/07/03 08:26 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

I think people can make their own minds up about the reliability of your claims.

Then we at least agree on something.

I don't have the time or the inclination to examine every case. I picked two at random and you were completly and utterly wrong.

You didn't pick two "at random". You picked the only two where I was in error.

Today you stated a third - Burger King - as usual you were completly wrong again.

The fact that I was wrong on those examples doesn't invalidate the fact that I was right when I showed your claims were incorrect. And of COURSE they were inadvertent slipups. Why on earth would I knowingly provide you something to pounce on when I could so easily have substituted any one of literally thousands of other choices?

You say a lot of stupid and inaccurate things...

Believe me, Alex, you DO NOT want the readers of this forum to see a list of even a fraction of the stupid and inaccurate things you have posted in your time here. It's better to admit that technological advancements occur without government assistance and move on.

I do not dismiss your arguments on a given principle under discussion due to the fact that you have been wrong so many times in the past -- I dispute each one as it comes. There is always the possibility that you may actually make an accurate statement on a given topic -- you have done so occasionally. But when you do make an inaccurate statement, I will point out its inaccuracy if someone else doesn't beat me to it.

pinky


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1199274 - 01/08/03 01:49 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

****Another two carrot-top fans I see... ****

I actually laughed.....


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Phred]
    #1199293 - 01/08/03 02:23 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

sorry to be finnickity but you said....

"You didn't pick two "at random". You picked the only two where I was in error."

Does burden of proof come into play here??  :grin: 


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Phred]
    #1199532 - 01/08/03 05:54 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Then we at least agree on something.

Well you've been wrong on every single case so far. Lets just agree that you're not a very good bet.

You picked the only two where I was in error.

According to you. But then again according to you the other three examples were correct also. Until it was pointed out you were wrong.

The fact that I was wrong on those examples doesn't invalidate the fact that I was right

Congratulations. You are clearly the only man who can be both right and wrong simultaneously. Bravo.

Believe me, Alex, you DO NOT want the readers of this forum to see a list of even a fraction of the stupid and inaccurate things you have posted in your time here

Can we concentrate on the topic instead of your lurid fantasies about the past? No doubt in 2 months you'll be saying "Remember when i proved you wrong on mcdonalds, burger king, lasers recieving corporate welfare". It's your usual tactic.



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OfflinePhred
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: GazzBut]
    #1200180 - 01/08/03 10:18 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Gazzbut writes:

Does burden of proof come into play here?

Actually, yes it does. That burden falls on Alex's shoulders, not mine, since he is the one who made the original claim:

"Nah, there really isn't any technological advancements that weren't funded massively by the taxpayer." Alex made no attempt to support this claim -- he provided not a single example. He has yet to meet the burden of proof.

Rather than ask him to back up his claim and have you and him whine about the unfairness of having to meet the burden of proof, I went ahead and disproved his claim with twenty-nine examples of advances funded privately. I didn't have to, but since it was so easy I whipped up the first thirty that popped into my head. As it turns out, the predecessor to one of those thirty WAS developed by a researcher using public funding. As soon as this was pointed out to me, I immediately acknowledged the error, and said, okay, let's scratch that one from the list -- what about the others?

It is still up to Alex to prove that technological advances don't occur without "massive" taxpayer funding.

pinky



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OfflinePhred
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1200237 - 01/08/03 10:38 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Well you've been wrong on every single case so far.

No Alex, I wasn't wrong on every single case so far. I was wrong on one out of thirty. I listed twenty-nine technological advancements that occurred without government funding, and one that did, in response to your incorrect claim that "Nah, there really isn't any technological advancements that weren't funded massively by the taxpayer."

Lets just agree that you're not a very good bet.

Most reasonable people would consider twenty-nine to one a very good bet.

Congratulations. You are clearly the only man who can be both right and wrong simultaneously. Bravo.

Now that was lame. Let's paste the entire sentence, shall we? "The fact that I was wrong on those examples doesn't invalidate the fact that I was right when I showed your claims were incorrect." Your claim was "Nah, there really isn't any technological advancements that weren't funded massively by the taxpayer." My twenty-nine examples of technological advances accomplished without massive taxpayer funding disproved this. I wasn't "right and wrong simultaneously", I was right, period.

Can we concentrate on the topic instead of your lurid fantasies about the past?

By all means let us get back to the topic at hand. Please show us how massive funding by the taxpayer is a prerequisite for the advancement of technology. Explain how technological advances through history occurred before governments started using tax dollars for research.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Phred]
    #1200373 - 01/08/03 11:42 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

No Alex, I wasn't wrong on every single case so far.

Yes you were. You were wrong on every single case we explored. You have a pasted a meaningless long list in the hope that I'll let you off with a few of them. Every case we examined in detail you agree that you were hopelessly wrong.

Most reasonable people would consider twenty-nine to one a very good bet.

You have a 100% failure rate so far. The others have yet to be examined. The question is whether or not me or Gaz has the time or interest in destroying your arguments over and over again.

I was right, period.

You were wrong on mcdonalds, wrong on burger king, wrong on lasers and wrong on coalmining. You have provided absolutely no evidence to suggest you were right on any other case. When you provide some, we can take your points seriously.

Please show us how massive funding by the taxpayer

Read the lasers case again.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (01/08/03 11:51 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Phred]
    #1200377 - 01/08/03 11:44 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

As soon as this was pointed out to me, I immediately acknowledged the error, and said, okay, let's scratch that one from the list -- what about the others?

What about them? Do you want us to spend hours disproving your idiocy? We'd be busy the rest of our lives. If you are so convinced your cases are correct, provide some proof. Like you did with lasers, mcdonalds, coal mines, burger king. Every time you make any attempt at backing your points up you are quickly and thoroughly destroyed.


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Xlea321]
    #1200458 - 01/08/03 12:16 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

You were wrong on every single case we explored.

Come, come, Alex... we all know you explored more than just lasers. You just don't have the honesty to report the ones where I was right... twenty-nine at last count, though I could add another twenty-nine if you wish.

You were wrong on mcdonalds, wrong on burger king, wrong on lasers and wrong on coalmining.

Coalmining? Where do you see coalmining?. As it happens, I was right on coalmining, but I thought you wanted to concentrate on the topic at hand... whether or not technological advancements require government funding to occur. If you want to start hauling in statements made from other threads entirely, remember that two can play at that game.

Read the lasers case again.

Read my questions again: "Please show us how massive funding by the taxpayer is a prerequisite for the advancement of technology. Explain how technological advances through history occurred before governments started using tax dollars for research."

You made your initial claim with no support. It was an arbitrary and absurd proclamation. You have yet to provide any evidence, let alone proof, that without government funding technological advancements do not occur. Until you provide an answer, I won't address the issue further. Put up or shut up.

pinky


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Phred]
    #1200488 - 01/08/03 12:23 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

You have provided no evidence to back up your claims - the only one I looked into you were wrong. You also recently said demand for coal in the UK was zero - wrong again!

But even taking this into account you still claim to be right in all the other cases you listed, without any evidence to support your claims. - Admit it, if this was the other way round you would be crucifying Alex.


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: GazzBut]
    #1200631 - 01/08/03 01:02 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

GazzBut writes:

You have provided no evidence to back up your claims...

You're still new to the concept of "burden of proof", aren't you? Here's how it works:

Alex claims: "Nah, there really isn't any technological advancements that weren't funded massively by the taxpayer."

It is up to ALEX to provide at least SOME support for his claim, for example to provide some documentation showing how the technological advancements in mankind's history that occurred before governments started handing out research grants were somehow really secretly funded by taxes, even though they weren't.

the only one I looked into you were wrong.

So you feel that out of a list of thirty examples, it is correct to stop with the same one that Alex had picked? Why didn't you start at the beginning of the list? Or proceed alphabetically? You consider this an intellectually honest way of conducting debate -- to examine a single one of thirty examples? That speaks volumes for your intellectual rigor, doesn't it?

You also recently said demand for coal in the UK was zero - wrong again!

As I said to Alex, if you want to start hauling in statements from OTHER threads, I'm up for it. Are you SURE you want to do that? As it happens, I never said the demand for coal in England was zero in any thread anyway.

you still claim to be right in all the other cases you listed, without any evidence to support your claims.

You have at best a tenuous grasp of logic, don't you? How in the world can I or ANYONE prove that governments didn't fund the development of the steam engine? It's not as if somewhere there is a cheque lying around from the English parliament reading "Payable to James Watt -- Zero pounds and zero pence." I can't prove that leprechauns didn't invent the steam engine either, or that God didn't make a working model appear in a puff of smoke.

Admit it, if this was the other way round you would be crucifying Alex.

It will never be the other way around, because Alex is too craven to provide actual examples that can be tested -- his style is to pull arbitrary fantasies out of the air and then dump them on the table and walk away from them.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Phred]
    #1201894 - 01/08/03 07:09 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

we all know you explored more than just lasers

You must be joking. I know you better than that. You have as little idea whether any of the others received public money as you did lasers.

twenty-nine at last count

Zero at the last count. Remember, you were absolutely convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that lasers hadn't. And you were absolutely convinced macdonalds hadn't. Then to top it off you were really, 100% utterly convinced burger king hadn't. You were wrong every time. There's a pattern isn't there.

I was right on coalmining

No, you thought there was no demand for coal and that re-opening abandoned mines wasn't a incredibly difficult and prohibitivly expensive thing to do. Wrong again.

You have yet to provide any evidence

Remember lasers? Or have you swept that one so far under the carpet you darn't face it?


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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Phred]
    #1201984 - 01/08/03 07:39 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

It is up to ALEX to provide at least SOME support for his claim

Can you give me an example of a hi-tech industry that hasn't recieved government funding?

Are you SURE you want to do that?

Why not? He comprehensively destroyed you in that thread too.

governments didn't fund the development of the steam engine?

When the best example you can think of is something from 1755 you really must know you're on thin ice. Try thinking of something from the last 100 years at least.

to provide actual examples that can be tested

I suggested lasers had recieved public money. You spent half a page hysterically denouncing me and saying i was wrong. The following post Gaz showed you that you were wrong.

Incidentally, you went awfully quiet on your burger king shambles didn't you? You spent another half a page insisting i would have been "twisting" if you'd said Burger king instead of mcdonalds. Looks like we soon found out who'd be doing the twisting. Are you man enough to apologise for all those hysterical insults or will you just stick to crawling on your belly like a worm as usual?




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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: reasons TO hate corporate america [Re: Phred]
    #1202340 - 01/08/03 11:10 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Pinky you are getting tedious - Look you made false claims and now expect us to believe all your other claims without any evidence. I couldnt care less how YOU PERCEIVE burden of proof. As far as Im concerned anything you now say is worthless unless backed up with evidence.

You say:
Quote:

You have at best a tenuous grasp of logic, don't you? How in the world can I or ANYONE prove that governments didn't fund the development of the steam engine? It's not as if somewhere there is a cheque lying around from the English parliament reading "Payable to James Watt -- Zero pounds and zero pence." I can't prove that leprechauns didn't invent the steam engine either, or that God didn't make a working model appear in a puff of smoke.




Umm wasnt the whole point that you listed these things because you said they were invented without the aid of goverrnment funding? you said to alex
Quote:

Come, come, Alex... we all know you explored more than just lasers. You just don't have the honesty to report the ones where I was right... twenty-nine at last count, though I could add another twenty-nine if you wish."


and now you have shifted your psostion completely to say it cant be proven either way if governenmet funding was involved. To use one of your own quotes "That speaks volumes for your intellectual rigor, doesn't it?"

I think you really need to loosen your belief systems and try and rid yourself of this egoic need to be right all the time because in your rush to do this you are making yourself look a bit silly.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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