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Offlinepfxtc
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Syrian Rue
    #11783608 - 01/07/10 03:30 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Anyone use this recreationally? Care to explain it's effects at certain doses, etc.?


--------------------

koods said:
Young male going by the name "Bassfreak" entered Worcester General complaining of a sharp pain in his buttock region after attending EDM event. Attending physician considered a possible diagnosis of acute rave anus, but upon further investigation it was determined there was nothing cute about patient's anus.

Life-long trip report


Edited by pfxtc (01/07/10 03:32 PM)


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OfflineCosmicLion
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Re: Syrian Rue [Re: pfxtc]
    #11783810 - 01/07/10 04:03 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I've taken up to 5g by itself, nothing but a moderate buzz which was quite relaxing. 

Any more then that and you begin getting toxic side effects due to secondary compounds in the rue.

Dosing high on Harmalas is interesting but easier done with Caapi. Not as dizzying or sick feeling in higher doses.

Dosing high on Harmalas, though, has little recreational value to me. It is more for deep introspection. The nausea & mindset are not very conducive to a typical 'good' time.


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Offlinepfxtc
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Re: Syrian Rue [Re: CosmicLion]
    #11783822 - 01/07/10 04:05 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicLion said:
I've taken up to 5g by itself, nothing but a moderate buzz which was quite relaxing. 

Any more then that and you begin getting toxic side effects due to secondary compounds in the rue.

Dosing high on Harmalas is interesting but easier done with Caapi. Not as dizzying or sick feeling in higher doses.

Dosing high on Harmalas, though, has little recreational value to me. It is more for deep introspection. The nausea & mindset are not very conducive to a typical 'good' time.




Well I consider deep introspection as a worthwhile effect. I simply used the term recreational value as "something that produces effect".


--------------------

koods said:
Young male going by the name "Bassfreak" entered Worcester General complaining of a sharp pain in his buttock region after attending EDM event. Attending physician considered a possible diagnosis of acute rave anus, but upon further investigation it was determined there was nothing cute about patient's anus.

Life-long trip report


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OfflineCosmicLion
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Re: Syrian Rue [Re: pfxtc]
    #11783857 - 01/07/10 04:10 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

pfxtc said:
Well I consider deep introspection as a worthwhile effect. I simply used the term recreational value as "something that produces effect".




Caapi only brews are astoundingly healing. The healing effects can last for a long while afterward with a glow that can last for a week or more.

I personally enjoy it and am learning to work with the Caapi alone for a while before adding any Light to the brews.

If introspection is worthwhile then Caapi could be your friend.

Rue too, it just becomes harder to reach the same level of effects without significant negative side effects.


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Offlinepfxtc
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Re: Syrian Rue [Re: CosmicLion]
    #11783875 - 01/07/10 04:12 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicLion said:
Quote:

pfxtc said:
Well I consider deep introspection as a worthwhile effect. I simply used the term recreational value as "something that produces effect".




Caapi only brews are astoundingly healing. The healing effects can last for a long while afterward with a glow that can last for a week or more.

I personally enjoy it and am learning to work with the Caapi alone for a while before adding any Light to the brews.

If introspection is worthwhile then Caapi could be your friend.

Rue too, it just becomes harder to reach the same level of effects without significant negative side effects.




Very interesting, I've yet to try Caapi for these effects, any advise on preperation?


--------------------

koods said:
Young male going by the name "Bassfreak" entered Worcester General complaining of a sharp pain in his buttock region after attending EDM event. Attending physician considered a possible diagnosis of acute rave anus, but upon further investigation it was determined there was nothing cute about patient's anus.

Life-long trip report


Edited by pfxtc (01/07/10 04:13 PM)


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OfflineCosmicLion
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Re: Syrian Rue [Re: pfxtc]
    #11784705 - 01/07/10 06:24 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

pfxtc said:
Very interesting, I've yet to try Caapi for these effects, any advise on preperation?




Lets take a look at the alkaloid makeup.

Syrian Rue has Harmaline with some harmine.

Caapi has a lot of harmine and the sought after THH (Tetrahydroharmine) with an almost unsubstantial amount of Harmaline.

Harmaline is known to be more dizzying, nauseating and generally 'harsh' feeling on the body.

Harmine is known to be gentler, smoother and equally as effective except requiring a higher dose.

THH is known to be euphoric, effective and experientialy preferable over the other two harmalas.

Additionally there is evidence to suggest that THH is responsible for the anti-depressant effects of Ayahuasca. THH is claimed to be the molecule that increases the density of serotonin receptors in your brain, helping you utilize your natural amounts of serotonin better.

The evidence that suggests this is not concrete but is backed by an additional series of anecdotal evidence from internet users (mainly from Ayahuasca.com)

Many are experimenting with micro-dosing THH\Harmine daily to build serotonin receptors and act as an effective substitute for modern anti-depressants. People are eating small amounts of extract or drinking very small sub-threshold doses of Caapi tea daily.

Caapi is very tannic and the typical boil & strain method, although effective, may not be the best route.

The Herbal Percolator (THP) is probably the best method for Caapi brews. It reduces tannins SIGNIFICANTLY and extracts out MUCH more Harmala from the vine then boiling. Caapi is usually active at around 30-50g but using THP doses can be active with as little as 10g!

I did a full-spectrum Caapi extraction over at the Nexus. The results were impure and ideal if you want to consume the entirty of plant alkaloids. I also included purification into semi-pure harmaloids (Harmine & THH)

Here is the extraction tek, you must sign in to view pics:

http://dmt-nexus.com/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=8026

Caapi is the magic mother of anti-depressants and psychedelic catalysts. I plan on infusing this plant into my body as much as possible over this next year.


--------------------
:peace:    :peace:

  Earth's Essence


Edited by CosmicLion (01/07/10 07:27 PM)


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Offlinepfxtc
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Re: Syrian Rue [Re: CosmicLion]
    #11784881 - 01/07/10 06:50 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Well hell I asked the right person, great information, thank you, I'll check up on it and come back if I have any questions. The MAOI's in Caapi/rue are different then those of traditional antidepressants correct? As in, they are much more forgiving with what you can and cannot ingest while the maoi is in your system/. Apparently it has anti - cancer benefits as well.


--------------------

koods said:
Young male going by the name "Bassfreak" entered Worcester General complaining of a sharp pain in his buttock region after attending EDM event. Attending physician considered a possible diagnosis of acute rave anus, but upon further investigation it was determined there was nothing cute about patient's anus.

Life-long trip report


Edited by pfxtc (01/07/10 06:55 PM)


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Syrian Rue [Re: pfxtc]
    #11786206 - 01/07/10 10:26 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I've only used Syrian Rue in combination with other psychedelics but I've noticed that it makes a great synergistic combination with weed at the expense of nausea.  Three grams or more is the cut off level for MAO inhibition if I'm not mistaken.

A friend of mine actually started tripping on the sole mixture of Syrian Rue and weed; full-fledged CEVs and dissociative visions.  :lol:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineCosmicLion
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Re: Syrian Rue [Re: pfxtc]
    #11788194 - 01/08/10 09:39 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

pfxtc said:
Well hell I asked the right person, great information, thank you, I'll check up on it and come back if I have any questions. The MAOI's in Caapi/rue are different then those of traditional antidepressants correct? As in, they are much more forgiving with what you can and cannot ingest while the maoi is in your system/. Apparently it has anti - cancer benefits as well.




The difference is that Traditional MAOI's are 'irreversible' MAOI's meaning that they bind to the MAO Enzyme and permanently disable it.

Harmalas are 'reversable' MAOI's in that the bind to the MAO Enzyme for a short period of time before returning it to its normal condition, usually taking 4-8 hours to do so.

After taking an irreversible MAOI your body can take up to 2 weeks to return to its natural level of MAO. This means you have to watch your diet the entire time your body is recovering.

When taking a reversible MAOI like Harmala the body is left to its normal levels by morning.

Additional evidence suggests that reversible MAOI's like Harmala are not nearly as sensitive to the dietary restrictions as Traditional MAOI's. Community experiments have been done by people here at the Shroomery and at the DMT-Nexus that have confirmed that one can still eat tyramine and other 'no-no' foods while under the influence of Harmala without ill effect.

However drug reactions are very real and can be fatal. Whether an MAOI is reversible or irreversible it can still inhibit the MAO Enzyme enough to cause a drug overdose of whatever is in your system. That means that one should not consume caffeine, alcohol, opiates, stimulants or most any pharmaceutical when taking Harmala.

On the contrary if one were to take Harmala daily, especially in small amounts, they could safely consume small amounts of alcohol and caffeine as long as the user is conscious of the fact that whatever they ingest is going to be potentiated. That means that without caution one could develop hypertension from Caffeine or alcohol poisoning from booze.

An interesting note is that Traditional MAOI's are known to be some of THE MOST EFFECTIVE anti-depressants out there. The only reason they are unpopular is because of the heavy dietary restrictions. Using Harmala can transcend that issue and act as an extremely effective anti-depressant.

The MAO Enzyme breaks down Serotonin, Dopamine and Norepinephrine. These are your 3 major neuro-transmitters that all anti-depressants effect, especially Serotonin and Norepinephrine. Dopamaine being responsible for thought and mood\reward regulation.

When you take an MAO Inhibitor like Harmala you are increasing the amount of these neuro-transmitters in your brain in a strictly mechanical fashion. This could be argued as much much safer then the routes of change that most pharmaceuticals take to regulate these systems.


Edited by CosmicLion (01/08/10 09:49 AM)


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Invisiblewisp
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Re: Syrian Rue [Re: CosmicLion]
    #11788322 - 01/08/10 10:38 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Regarding syrian rue extract, the quinazoline derivatives (vasicine and vasicinone) are no longer present, right? It is my understanding that these are the chemicals in rue that are responsible for the nausea. However, you are saying that harmaline causes these effects too. Does this mean that relatively high doses of syrian rue extract will cause nausea too?


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Offlinetony serro
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Re: Syrian Rue [Re: wisp]
    #11788325 - 01/08/10 10:39 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Why would you take maoi's recreationally they're dangerous to mix with almost anything so you can't take most real drugs for a while after doing em.


--------------------
The most thoroughly and relentlessly damned, banned, excluded, condemned, suppressed,brutalized and defamed of all Damned Things is the individual human being. The social engineers, are perpetually forcing this Damned Thing into carefully prepared blueprints and perpetually irritated that the Damned Thing will not fit into the slot assigned to it. The theologians call it a sinner and try to reform it The governor calls it a criminal and tries to punish it The psychotherapist calls it a neurotic and tries to cure it. Still, the Damned Thing will not fit into their slots. -Robert Anton Wilson


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Invisiblewisp
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Re: Syrian Rue [Re: tony serro]
    #11788379 - 01/08/10 10:53 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

No offense, but do you know what you are even talking about? As explained above, harmal alkaloids are short-acting, reversible MAOIs. They have been proven to be safe to combine with tyramine containing foods. Yes, you can't mix them with other stimulants, etc, but that is no loss. Poly-drug use usually leads to contraindications of some sort anyway. I don't see how a stimulant is any more a "real drug" than harmal alkaloids are.


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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: Syrian Rue [Re: wisp]
    #11788397 - 01/08/10 10:58 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

i like to smoke a bit of rue extract on top of cannabis. there is definitiely noticeable effects from smoked rue extract. esp when mixed with dmt and some kind of catcher leaf. It makes the DMT last way longer than normal.

Also this may sound wierd but whenever i smoke rue i become very intuitive. i don't know how else to explain it but the times that i have smoked rue i have had some sort of a precognitive exprience.


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OfflineCosmicLion
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Re: Syrian Rue [Re: wisp]
    #11788406 - 01/08/10 11:01 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

tripsis said:
Regarding syrian rue extract, the quinazoline derivatives (vasicine and vasicinone) are no longer present, right? It is my understanding that these are the chemicals in rue that are responsible for the nausea. However, you are saying that harmaline causes these effects too. Does this mean that relatively high doses of syrian rue extract will cause nausea too?




True and True.

If you do a Manske-style extraction using Salt (NaCl) then the result is a 2:1 mix of Harmine:Harmaline with vacicine and vasicinone removed.

Here is an extraction I did that converted 100g Syrian Rue into 1.8g Semi-Pure Harmaloids.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11513053/page/1

Additionally, Harmaline will make you sick in high doses. Anything above 150mg of pure harmaline and one begins to enter the side-effect range. 200mg+ of pure Harmaline can EASILY induce nausea, vommiting and extreme disorienting dizziness.

A good dose of Harmaline is around 100mg. A good dose of Harmine is around 200mg.

A good dose of Semi-Pure Rue Extract is about 150mg.

Caapi extract can be taken in doses of 200mg+ with MUCH FEWER side effects then rue extract.


--------------------
:peace:    :peace:

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OfflineCosmicLion
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Re: Syrian Rue [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #11788423 - 01/08/10 11:03 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomDoom said:
the times that i have smoked rue i have had some sort of a precognitive exprience.




Statements like these further validate the reason people called Harmala "Telepathine" when it was first discovered.

It was believed to induce telepathy and provide these precognitive experiences.


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OfflineCosmicLion
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Re: Syrian Rue [Re: tony serro]
    #11788455 - 01/08/10 11:12 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

tony serro said:
Why would you take maoi's recreationally they're dangerous to mix with almost anything so you can't take most real drugs for a while after doing em.




Well I haven't done stimulants in 5+ years and don't take opiates except maybe once a year for extreme illness.

I don't take any medication daily. No cold medication, no prescriptions.

I enjoy alcohol & caffeine in moderation but it is no big issue for me to stop using them for a couple days to enjoy a Harmala experience.

Life is about Tox and Detox cycles... I may take Harmala daily for a couple months, then midterms or finals roll around so I lay off the Harmala and start drinking more caffeine.

I may plan a weekend out drinking so I lay off the daily harmala for 48 hours prior and 24 hours after. 

To consistently ingest any toxic substance is not a very wise thing to do and if one can't stop taking toxic drugs for a 72 hour period then perhaps they ARE in serious need of a harmala session.


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:peace:    :peace:

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Invisiblewisp
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Re: Syrian Rue [Re: CosmicLion]
    #11788456 - 01/08/10 11:12 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

If you do a Manske-style extraction using Salt (NaCl) then the result is a 2:1 mix of Harmine:Harmaline with vacicine and vasicinone removed.

Here is an extraction I did that converted 100g Syrian Rue into 1.8g Semi-Pure Harmaloids.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11513053/page/1

Additionally, Harmaline will make you sick in high doses. Anything above 150mg of pure harmaline and one begins to enter the side-effect range. 200mg+ of pure Harmaline can EASILY induce nausea, vommiting and extreme disorienting dizziness.

A good dose of Harmaline is around 100mg. A good dose of Harmine is around 200mg.

A good dose of Semi-Pure Rue Extract is about 150mg.





So there is more harmine than harmaline is Syrian rue? Do you have the figures of the average percentages of harmine and harmaline contained in rue?

What are your thoughts on using isopropyl or acetone to clean it up?


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OfflineCosmicLion
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Re: Syrian Rue [Re: wisp]
    #11788478 - 01/08/10 11:19 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

tripsis said:
So there is more harmine than harmaline is Syrian rue? Do you have the figures of the average percentages of harmine and harmaline contained in rue?

What are your thoughts on using isopropyl or acetone to clean it up?




Syrian Rue contains 2-4% Alkaloids. In the book "Pharmako/Gnosis : Plant Teachers and the Poison Path" the author Dale Pendell does a Manske Salt extraction and his results are sent in to Shulgin's lab and were tested at 2:1 of Harmine:Harmaline

Isopropyl and all alcohols are highly discouraged when working with Harmala's. There have been many accounts of Isopopyl making harmala inactive as well as turning it into a mysterious compound called "Harmala Red"

As a general rule the recent consensus is to keep Harmala away from alcohol.

As far as acetone, I have no experience. I try to use only food-safe products when working with extractions. Especially when it comes to something I am going to either ingest daily or use for spiritual purposes.


--------------------
:peace:    :peace:

  Earth's Essence


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Re: Syrian Rue [Re: wisp]
    #11788492 - 01/08/10 11:23 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

tripsis said:
What are your thoughts on using isopropyl or acetone to clean it up?




The cleaning procedure is easy.

1. Dissolve harmalas into water with a little bit of vinegar.
2. Add a concentrated sodium carbonate solution until color stops changing.
3. Put in fridge for 3 hours to let harmaloids settle out then filter and collect the powder.

This can be repeated until desired purity is reached.


--------------------
:peace:    :peace:

  Earth's Essence


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Invisiblewisp
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Re: Syrian Rue [Re: CosmicLion]
    #11788505 - 01/08/10 11:26 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Hmmm, interesting. Thanks for the reference too.

If alcohol is no good, how does one end up with pure crystals?

Also, have there actually been verified accounts of people inactivating the harmal alkaloids after using alcohol, or is it just conjecture?


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