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OfflineEllis Dee
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Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Duck Hunt, Enemy Enforcer

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 2 months, 19 days
Your Papers, Please?
    #1176090 - 12/28/02 09:43 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=4833
Big Brother at Your (Car) Door

By Terrence Bressi

~ Foreword ~
Last night while travelling back to Tucson after working the day at Kitt Peak, I was detained/arrested at a police check point in the Tohono O'odham Reservation - Pima County, Arizona. The check point was a joint task force operation involving the Tohono O'odham police, U.S. Customs, and INS/Border Patrol. Below appears my account of the events that transpired.

21 December 2002 - 17:00 hours: I came upon a police check point on Arizona Route 86 at mile marker 143 in the Tohono O'odham reservation - Pima County, Arizona.

I called a coworker on a cell phone while waiting in backed up traffic & informed him of the circumstances. He stayed on the line the entire time I interacted with the enforcement officers up to the time I was forcibly removed from the vehicle. My co-worker heard most of the conversation.

The road block was setup in such a place as to provide no prior warning as to its presence and no ability to bypass it. Route 86 is the only viable route back to Tucson from Kitt Peak & there is no shoulder along large sections of the route which would allow an individual the opportunity to turn around prior to entering the checkpoint.

Spotters were present along the side of the road some distance before the checkpoint. Their purpose was not obvious until after coming upon the roadblock.

I was traveling back to Tucson after working the day on Kitt Peak.

A dozen or so enforcement vehicles were present along the side of the road at the checkpoint.

Tohono O'odham police, U.S. Customs, & INS/Border Patrol Vehicles were present along with several unmarked enforcement vehicles.

I was stopped by the officer in charge who worked for the Tohono O'odham Police.

Upon request, the officer indicated the purpose of the checkpoint was sobriety & license checks which seemed inconsistent with the presence of U.S. Customs & INS law enforcement personnel.

Upon request, the officer provided his name but failed to provide photo identification. The officer then requested my license. I requested to know why he wanted it. The officer indicated everyone was being asked for their license for identification purposes and to check for compliance with traffic laws.

I requested to know if the stops being made were based upon individualized probable cause of wrongdoing. He indicated there was no probable cause & everyone was being treated the same.

Others officers were beginning to gather around my vehicle at this time - including the U.S. Customs Agent.

The officer in charge asked me for my drivers license again. I asked him if he had any reason to believe my drivers license wasn't in order or whether or not he had probable cause to believe I was in violation of any statute of the State.

He indicated he had no such belief but that I needed to provide my license to him.

I indicated that I was uncomfortable providing my license given the current set of circumstances. He then asked for my name which I provided along with a contact name and number for my boss who could verify my identity and purpose for being in the vehicle.

I then reiterated my request to know what law authorized him to stop me without probable cause of wrongdoing and demand my identification papers. No answer was forthcoming.

At some point during this conversation, a Tohono O'odham detective spoke up and indicated that he could tell I hadn't been drinking because my eyes were not bloodshot, I was communicating effectively, and exhibited no signs of being impaired but that I still needed to provide a license. He indicated this was an area known for drug smuggling and illegal immigrants and consequently folks needed to be identified before they could go on.

Although having no jurisdiction over the subject matter at hand, the U.S. Customs Agent forcefully entered the conversation and demanded that I comply with the request along with some other commentary.

I asked the U.S. Customs Agent who had jurisdictional & operational control over the check point. The officer in charge indicated at this time that it was a joint task force consisting of the Tohono O'odham, U.S. Customs, & INS.

I indicated the Supreme Court had made a distinction between check points set up for public safety, i.e. sobriety check points, Vs law enforcement checkpoints and that only the former met Constitutional muster when no individualized probable cause is present. I then indicated the following

Due to the presence of U.S. Customs and INS/Border Patrol Agents - law enforcement as opposed to public safety was obviously a fundamental aspect of the check point.

The detective indicated he was satisfied I had not been drinking & hence any public safety aspect of the check point with regards to me personally had been satisfied

A license check primarily serves a law enforcement function - not a public safety issue - thus a mandatory license check relating to a 'public safety' stop with no actual or perceived wrongdoing is onerous on my right to travel unmolested on the public highways.

The officers present were clearly getting agitated at this point. The officer in charge asked me to pull the vehicle over to the side of the road. I asked him why and he replied they needed to ask me further questions.

I asked if I was being detained. He clearly indicated I was NOT being detained.

I indicated that if I was not being detained then it follows that I must be free to leave.

At this point a different officer (Tohono O'odham K-9 unit) indicated he had had enough of this and that I was to turn off the vehicle and exit the car. A few of the officers present put their hands on their guns.

I slowly turned off the vehicle as commanded, removed the keys from the ignition and placed the keys in full view on the dashboard. I then sat very still in the front seat with my hands in full view for all to see.

The driver side door was opened, my seatbelt was unclipped by one of the enforcement agents, and I was forcibly removed from the vehicle and laid down on the pavement . My hands were placed behind my back and I was handcuffed. I was then picked up under the armpits and dragged off the road over to one of the police vehicles.

At no point was I informed whether or not I was under arrest, nor was I read my miranda rights.

I was left on the ground for the next 30-40 minutes (time not exact). A few times, the K-9 officer came over acting hostile & belligerent & made several less than exemplary comments regarding myself. I heard the U.S. Customs enforcer refer to me as a 'Peace Protester' & the K-9 officer refer to me as a 'Green Freak'. While I like the color green - neither reference was accurate or justified.

Early on, my wallet was taken from me and my drivers license removed from the wallet presumably to run a check. At my request, the detective counted the money in my wallet before walking off with it. It was returned with my driver's license presumably after the check was complete and no further reason to hold on to it was found.

During my time on the ground, I observed checkpoint operations. For the first 40 minutes - vehicles were NOT stopped in any particular order or pattern. Officers were clearly using their own judgment to determine which vehicles were stopped and which were waved through. At times, several vehicles in a row would be stopped followed by 10 or so vehicles allowed to pass unmolested. This would be followed by stopping every second or third vehicle and so on. After an hour or so, the procedure appeared to become more repetitive with nearly very vehicle being stopped but the first half of the operation was clearly arbitrary in nature. Everyone was NOT treated the same from the inception of the operation.

While watching the vehicles being stopped, I also noticed enforcement officers checking license plates against registrations along with demanding that car drivers pop their trunks so they could be searched. The purpose of such an action didn't appear related to sobriety checks but rather the search for contraband material. Sometime during this time frame, I observed one of the Tohono O'odham officers approach the Customs enforcer and gesture at a vehicle that had just passed. The Customs enforcer started running toward his vehicle. This made it clear that information gathered by Tohono O'odham officers druing the 'sobriety checks' was openly being shared directly with federal enforcement agents for law enforcement purposes.

As time went on, what appeared to be illegal immigrants were loaded into an INS bus. These individuals were most likely identified by their failure to have a drivers license - indicating the license check, for which I was being detained, was being used to share information with the INS for federal law enforcement purposes. Additionally I was informed later that several hundred pounds of pot had been seized (probably through the trunk searches being conducted by the enforcement officers at the check point.)

After some time had passed, the detective came over and informed me that a citation was being drawn up & I would have the option of either signing it and being released on scene or not signing it and being brought down to the Pima County Jail in Ajo for processing. Upon his return, I opted not to sign and was lead over to one of the Tohono O'odham vehicles to await transport.

While waiting, I was informed my boss had been reached and that he was heading down to the scene to recover the vehicle and I would be allowed to talk with him at that time. Another hour passed before my boss and a co-worker arrived from the University. I talked with them at length regarding the situation and decided to sign the Arizona Traffic Ticket & Complaint so I could leave and start preparing my defense.

After signing the complaint, we conversed with the detective and the officer in charge. They indicated that while they have jurisdiction to enforce State laws on the section of the highway nearest their reservation, because I was not a citizen of the reservation my case would be transferred to the jurisdiction of Pima County.

I asked if there would be a problem with recording the license plate numbers and other marking of law enforcement vehicles present. The officer in charge indicated that was fine at which point I proceeded to do exactly that. The list appears below

INS/Border Patrol
H9739 J-25037
H9483 J-25581
E0703 J-26973
U1192 J22316 (Bus containing alleged illegal immigrants)

Tohono O'odham
83251 G-415CB
75781 G-450CB
30939 G-874CZ (w/trailer - G-590CJ)
51420 G-135CE
92432 G-461CE
83254 G-413CB

Unmarked
CA-52937 Blue Dodge 4x4
CA-50064 Silver Dodge 4x4
G-34 5DD White Crown Victoria
G-419DD White Ford Expedition
CB-88166 White Crown Victoria
CB-32748 White utility truck

Tow vehicles were on site a ways off as well as many vehicles that had been forced to pull over for further questioning. There was a pile of unopened containers of alcohol off to the side as well. At this point we departed the scene.

I was cited with two class 2 misdemeanors - each of which carries a maximum jail time of 4 months and a maximum monetary fine of $750.00

# ARS 28-1595B - Operator fails/refuses to exhibit drivers' license


# ARS 28-622A - Failure to obey officer while directing traffic

It would appear that it is now unlawful to drive home from work these days without getting proper clearance from the local authorities.

December 22, 2002

~ Afterwords ~
I plan on vigorously defending myself against the charges levied and am seeking legal advice/council. Names of individuals who I could contact or who would be willing to contact me would be greatly appreciated. My initial court date has been set for January 3, 2003. Thanks for any assistance that can be offered. I will be out of town for a few days next week but should have access to email. I've done some initial legal research but need to confer on the best approach to take with someone more knowledgeable then myself at this point.

Terrence Bressi


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineZimzum
old wanker

Registered: 04/17/99
Posts: 165
Loc: Sweden
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
Re: Your Papers, Please? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1176157 - 12/28/02 10:24 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

...these fucking pigs always try to stretch their authority.

Z


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InvisibleBuddha5254
addict
Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 532
Re: Your Papers, Please? [Re: Zimzum]
    #1176521 - 12/29/02 05:55 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

You know, if you just showed them your license (which they have every right to ask for) and didnt give them so much unnecessary shit, none of that would have happened. Its kinda funny, werent you on here a while back in support of Republicans, and now you are worried about big brother? hmmm. They have every right to ask you for your license if you are on a public road. The second charge is definitly stretching it though and wont hold up. You are guilty as charged for the first charge though.


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Anonymous

Re: Your Papers, Please? [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1176528 - 12/29/02 06:03 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

They have every right to ask you for your license if you are on a public road.

No, they don't.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,234
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Your Papers, Please? [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1176697 - 12/29/02 07:57 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Actually there are circumstances where random stops are allowed. According to the Supreme Court, if the road-block random stops are announced in advance and if they (for example) stop every third car, or even every blue car, road side stops such as described are legal.

Quite frankly, refusing to show a license in the described event, was a bit like pissing into a hurricane. He was right in that he didn't have to show his license but a fool to think he was going to win under those circumstances.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Your Papers, Please? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1177770 - 12/29/02 05:02 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Railgun
You are an extremely observant person. I hope you find a lawyer that will pay attention to your details.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,234
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Your Papers, Please? [Re: ]
    #1177788 - 12/29/02 05:20 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

While I have no doubt RG is an observant person, you on the other hand appear not to be.  :grin: :grin:

There is a link and the name of the author in that post.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleBuddha5254
addict
Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 532
Re: Your Papers, Please? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1177964 - 12/29/02 06:59 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I am almost willing to swear that police have every right to request drivers license from you if you are on a public road, but I might be wrong.


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Anonymous

Re: Your Papers, Please? [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1177987 - 12/29/02 07:19 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

You are wrong Buddha. Luv Dem Shrooms listed the exemptions provided by the Supreme Court. They are the only ones.

Other than those they cannot even stop you unless they have probable cause.

Just checking to see who you are is not probable cause.

While it is true that the guy could have saved himself a lot of trouble just by bending over and having the leo's stick it in his ass he made a decision to be free and live out what he believes in.

I myself have made similiar vows. The day an leo attempts to enter my house without a warrant is the day one of us will die if it is in my power. I really don't care which one it is. I am ready and if it happens it will probably be a good day to die.

It is the sheep of this country that will cause us all to have our freedoms taken completely away. I would rather die a free man than live as a slave or a coward.


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Anonymous

Re: Your Papers, Please? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1178020 - 12/29/02 07:33 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

you mean I am supposed to read his posts, I  thought you guys told me I was just supposed to agree with everything you guys said :blush:

:grin: 


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,234
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Your Papers, Please? [Re: ]
    #1178585 - 12/30/02 03:14 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

While it is true that the guy could have saved himself a lot of trouble just by bending over and having the leo's stick it in his ass he made a decision to be free and live out what he believes in.



Maybe so, maybe there's actually things worth getting arrested for. A roadside check in an area known for illegals doesn't qualify in my book.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineZimzum
old wanker

Registered: 04/17/99
Posts: 165
Loc: Sweden
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
Re: Your Papers, Please? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1178643 - 12/30/02 04:08 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Telling the police to go fuck themselves (especially in a more nice way) when they are operating outside the law is a holy duty (it's not that often you get a chance). I have on several occasions complied with their requests because i was not prepared -fuck, fuck, fuck- I have so regretted my cowardly actions. I was meaning to write some more here, but I got a bit too upset to find the right words... I hope you get them pigs good when they come knocking MrMushroom...

Z


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Anonymous

Re: Your Papers, Please? [Re: Zimzum]
    #1179007 - 12/30/02 07:40 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I know what you mean Zimzum. I was so angry when I first read I left the forum to cool down before I posted in this thread.

This is from the Norml card:

    I hereby invoke and refuse to waive all of the following rights and privileges afforded to me by the U.S. Constitution:


  • I invoke and refuse to waive my Fifth Amendment right to remain silent.


  • I invoke and refuse to waive my Sixth Amendment right to an attorney of my choice. Do not ask me any questions without my attorney present.


  • I invoke and refuse to waive all privileges and rights pursuant to the case Miranda v. Arizona. Do not ask me any questions or make any comment to me about this decision.


  • I invoke and refuse to waive my Fourth Amendment right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures. I do not consent to any search or seizure of myself, my home, or any property in my possession. Do not ask me about my ownership in any property. I do not consent to this contact with you. If I am not presently under arrest or under investigatory detention, please allow me to leave.


  • Any statement I make, or alleged consent I give, in response to your questions is hereby under protest and under duress and in submission to your claim of lawful authority to force me to provide you with information.


Taken from here! Read it and be prepared.


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Your Papers, Please? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1179215 - 12/30/02 09:03 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I really loved that article. Thank you for posting it.

I hope you Americans have the right to not be checked anytime for your licence. I'm pretty sure here in Canada we DON'T have the right. I understand the police have the right to stop any vehicle at any time to check for licence/insurance.

"Do you have anty reason to believe my licence is not in order?"
I'm going to use that next time. That guy is really smooth and intelligent.


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Offlinemr freedom
enthusiast
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 232
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: Your Papers, Please? [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1179538 - 12/30/02 10:58 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

You are incorrect. In this country one is NOT guilty as charged until one is found guilty in a court of law.

While I would have just shown my license, I THANK this man for being courageous and intelligent enough NOT to show his.

It is people of this calliber that won the RIGHTS that others would, HAPPILY, give away for convienenc.


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Offlinehtownkid28
pimpin' ain'teasy

Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 191
Loc: in hell! aahhh!!!!!
Last seen: 13 years, 8 days
Re: Your Papers, Please? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1180422 - 12/30/02 07:28 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

personally, i dont see what the big deal is. what did this person have against producing his license? i dont think a policeman asking to see my DL while im operating a vehicle on a public road is exactly trampling on my rights. if having these checkpoints and inconveniencing a few drivers can get some of the wrong people of the streets, then so be it. if you have nothing to hide, then why fight it? i think that people like that do more harm than good. they do nothing but help to tie the hands of those that are trying to protect us. i'm glad this person got physically removed from his vehicle and cited for it. i hope the charges stick.  :grin: 


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"



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Anonymous

Re: Your Papers, Please? [Re: htownkid28]
    #1180479 - 12/30/02 08:00 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

"i'm glad this person got physically removed from his vehicle and cited for it. i hope the charges stick.  :grin:"

Your opinion is an unpopular one with those who love freedom.

Have you never heard of the slippery slope?  Just where would you draw the line?  Your house?  Your bed?  Your wife or girlfriend?

The Nazi's would have loved your attitude.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Your Papers, Please? [Re: htownkid28]
    #1181103 - 12/31/02 05:40 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

You are either part of the solution, or you are part of the problem. Ignoring individual rights and advocating the abrogation of the 4th amendment does not make you part of the solution.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported
by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be
searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
-- US 4th Amendment

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
-- US 9th Amendment

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution,
nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states
respectively, or to the people."
-- US 10th Amendment


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Anonymous

Re: Your Papers, Please? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1181805 - 12/31/02 01:31 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Maybe so, maybe there's actually things worth getting arrested for. A roadside check in an area known for illegals doesn't qualify in my book.




There are too many people like you in America, just willing to follow whatever orders given by the police or any federal agent. It is this additude that Jefferson, Franklin, and Thomas Paine fought against so hard preceeding the American Revolution, and this type of person who was kicked out of the country after we won.

I salute the author and wish him luck in his trial. This country needs more people like him who are willing to stand up for their rights as American citizens.


Edited by stonedfish (01/01/03 11:01 AM)


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InvisibleTinMan
Stranger

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 2,956
Loc: Russia
Re: Your Papers, Please? [Re: Anonymous]
    #1181816 - 12/31/02 01:53 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

If we all do what we're told, without hesitation, all of America will become mindless zombies. They've already created new laws to suspend our amendments (i.e. patriot act) and even if there are no laws, they'll do whatever they want anyways. Centuries ago, us Americans decided to stand up for what we believed in. We wanted everything our way, and to be free from strict rule. This worked, but now were right back where we were years ago. Technically, we have rights. In the eyes of our gov't, they can do whatever they want, whether it be suspending privacy rights planting a wiretap or suspending Habeus Corpus to torture a "suspected" terrorist to death. If I was a lawyer and a good one at that, I would represent you for free. Best of luck with the trial. If all else fails, many people chose to flee the country instead of serving the few months in prison.


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