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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Evil [Re: jivJaN]
    #11752018 - 01/02/10 09:56 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

If that's impossible then we might as well give up any hope we have for ever coming together in peace and unity.  :tongue2:

The start of such an intersubjective framework might be to attribute wrongness to any action that causes unwanted suffering, for instance.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Evil [Re: deCypher]
    #11752021 - 01/02/10 09:56 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Sure; plenty of non-primate behaviors cause suffering in other creatures.





Did you even bother to read what I wrote?

Give me examples of intentional acts by animals to do harm outside of survival needs. :monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Evil [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11752028 - 01/02/10 09:58 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
No, sharks don't kill when not hungry. (survival)



And I agree- but is it enough for someone to believe a shark is evil to make this shark evil, or are they just not being coherent, as deCypher says?

Is evil an inherent quality or something that must be assigned?





Are you even aware of what a I'm asking? You either aren't or are avoiding the question.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Evil [Re: Icelander]
    #11752030 - 01/02/10 09:59 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Sure; plenty of non-primate behaviors cause suffering in other creatures.





Did you even bother to read what I wrote?

Give me examples of intentional acts by animals to do harm outside of survival needs. :monkeydance:




Quote:

jivJaN said:
cats kill for fun

alligators or crocodiles also kill  and don't eat sometimes.




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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: Evil [Re: deCypher]
    #11752034 - 01/02/10 10:00 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
If that's impossible then we might as well give up any hope we have for ever coming together in peace and unity.  :tongue2:

The start of such an intersubjective framework might be to attribute wrongness to any action that causes unwanted suffering, for instance.




:smile:

Quote:

construct an intersubjective rational framework




who shall be the 'constructor' ?


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Evil [Re: deCypher]
    #11752054 - 01/02/10 10:04 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Cats kill and worry their prey instinctually to hone survival skills. Not with intent to harm.

Crocs often kill and then let bury the prey in the river bank for later eating. Not with intent to harm.

Give me an example of something Nazi like. Come on you can do it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Evil [Re: Icelander]
    #11752056 - 01/02/10 10:04 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

No, I didn't understand it then. But I understand now.

Dolphins and Killer Whales have been observed killing other animals simple for killing other animals- I am pretty sure this is true but looking for some source now.
In the mean time, here is a video where captive killer whales kill and rip up a pelican. It's not 100% evidence- but it can be said that being captive held, each whale is on a specific diet and should not need to hunt out of hunger. Also the fact that the pelican doesn't appear to ever get eaten but only ripped up.



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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Evil [Re: jivJaN]
    #11752057 - 01/02/10 10:05 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:
who shall be the 'constructor' ?




Preferably it would be a shared construction between all humans willing to exist in harmony.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Evil [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11752060 - 01/02/10 10:06 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Lets take animals in human captivity out of the equation here as human influence and stresses of captivity may play a role.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Evil [Re: Icelander]
    #11752074 - 01/02/10 10:09 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Give me an example of something Nazi like. Come on you can do it.




I don't think you'll find examples of anything specifically Nazi like in animals but that's just a quantitative difference in our ingenuity and technological prowess, not a sign that there's something qualitatively special about humans.

Personally speaking I have known many dogs and cats who behaved quite maliciously and with intent to harm... if they were human I would classify them as 'mean'.  Obviously you can link every behavior back to survival and reproduction but what behavior isn't linked that way?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: Evil [Re: deCypher]
    #11752086 - 01/02/10 10:12 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Preferably it would be a shared construction between all humans willing to exist in harmony.




ok
taking it step by step

who would decide what harmony is ?


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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Offlinezoomfan
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Re: Evil [Re: jivJaN]
    #11752090 - 01/02/10 10:14 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

people used to think of certain sickness' as evil, as well as natural disasters, as far as evil goes ive never seen it as anything but the shitty (to humans) end of the spectrum of possible outcomes. people like to personify things to make them feel more in control.


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Thinking is dreaming wake up and enjoy the dream.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Evil [Re: jivJaN]
    #11752092 - 01/02/10 10:14 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

There might not necessarily be a single person who solely crafts what harmony is; more likely it would be the culmination of an ideological evolutionary process that takes input from all members of the soon-to-be community.

Off hand I would guess that harmony would involve the elimination of unwanted suffering, for example.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Evil [Re: deCypher]
    #11752098 - 01/02/10 10:16 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Take domesticated animals out of the equation due to human influence.

Obviously you can link every behavior back to survival and reproduction but what behavior isn't linked that way?

Here you have a point. :thumbup:

Now I'd like to refine this from what we generally call bad/wrong behaviors to what we call real evil. Like intentional torture for instance. The intent to cause unnecessary suffering for pleasure or out of malice.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Evil [Re: Icelander]
    #11752120 - 01/02/10 10:21 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

How could we differentiate between animals killing for fun and animals killing for their own survival with absolute certainty?  A cursory Google skimming leads me to believe that apparently crocodiles have very slow metabolisms and thus need to eat very infrequently, yet they routinely go after human children, other crocodiles, or other smaller crocodiles when they don't need, per se, to eat.


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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: Evil [Re: deCypher]
    #11752121 - 01/02/10 10:21 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

ok

so.. humans must first agree on what harmony is.
this harmony would be as you say the elimination of unwanted suffering.
then.. follow to construct  such an intersubjective framework which would attribute wrongness to any action that causes unwanted suffering, for instance.

im confused.


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Evil [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11752129 - 01/02/10 10:22 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

So that video wasn't too good.. but maybe these are more helpful.

http://www.newscientist.com/blog/environment/2008/09/dolphin-serial-killers.html
Quote:

Dead porpoises (and other cetaceans) turn up regularly on beaches around Britain. According to a Defra report last year (pdf), the cause of death of 15 out of 56 porpoise bodies found - the majority - was "physical trauma (bottlenose dolphin attack)"...

...Autopsies show some of the dead animals (13 out of 56) have died of starvation. But not all, and the bottlenose killers are not eating the porpoises they kill. In the case of the Risso's dolphin, it is not even a competitor for the same prey (Risso's feed on squid). So why are they killing other cetaceans?

"We can't state confidently that the killings are tied to declining fish stocks," says dolphin expert Nick Tregenza, who advises the Marine Strandings Network in Cornwall. His guess? "They could be doing it for fun."

Bottlenose dolphins are known to spread behaviour culturally and there are extensive records of violence between and within dolphin pods.

"Killing for fun" could be another culturally transmitted behaviour.

Tregenza likens it to the spread of milk-bottle opening by blue tits.
"It could be a form of play rather than food competition," he suggests.

Alternatively, he says, a bottlenose dolphin might have tried to help the weak Risso's dolphin and become angry when the Risso's failed to respond.

In a sick way, I kind of like the "killing for fun" explanation. Tregenza says the Cornwall Wildlife Trust has reported that dolphins have been seen picking up stones from the sea bed and throwing them on the surface. "They were thought to be throwing stones at seals on rocks not far away," Tregenza says.

Stone-throwing and killing for fun. Dolphins are even more like us than we thought.




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/3323070/Killer-dolphins-baffle-marine-experts.html
Quote:

Marine experts now believe that these displays of attacks on non-rival, non-predatory, peace-loving porpoises and, more shockingly, of dolphin infanticide, may have always taken place...

...Four years ago, members of Scots charity the Cetacean Research and Rescue Unit discovered a lifeless porpoise near the harbour at Whitehills, near Banff.

The team described the mammals' injuries as "perhaps the worst example of inter-specific aggression any of us had ever seen. This young female had literally had the life beaten out of her."

Inspection showed multiple lacerations and puncture wounds all over the body which could not have been caused by any other attacker than a bottle-nosed dolphin...

...Watching the films, Aberdeen marina biologist Dr Ben Wilson explains yet another shocking phenomenon - that the dolphins use their incredible ultra sound abilties to home in on the vital organs of their victims that will cause most damage.

"The blows are carefully targeted," says Dr Wilson, who is a member of the Scottish Association for Marine Science. "And the attacks are sustained, sometimes up to 30 minutes...

...Theories abound on the reason behind the mammal murders. These have included territorial clashes and feuds over food resources. But food is not in short supply and the victims are not just chased away but pursued to the death.

Another belief is that dolphin attacks on their young may be down to mating instincts, because when her calf dies the female dolphin is ready for mating again. But the experts are still not positive that it is only males who do the attacking.

And, incredibly, they can only guess that the attacks by bottle-nosed dolphins on Scotland's harbour porpoises is some kind of bizarre 'target practice.'




http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fe20080910rh.html
Quote:

Well, we know they are highly intelligent. They have complex forms of communication — including "signature whistles" that may function as their names — that we are only starting to understand. They are one of the few non-primate species that have been documented using tools (Australian dolphins have been seen wearing sponges over their snouts to protect the sensitive tissue as they dig on the seabed for food). And their sense of fun and games is well known...

...But this "dolphin killing dolphin" story got me thinking about culture. Also last month, there was a story that wild dolphins in south Australia had been seen "tail-walking" — the sort of party trick taught in captivity, but never before seen spontaneously in the wild.

Biologists said it appeared a "culture" of tail-walking had sprung up in the area, perhaps because 20 years ago, one of the dolphins now living there had spent time in a dolphinarium and might have seen the trick there.

Tregenza said that the Risso's dolphin found dead last week is not a competitor of Bottlenose dolphins. They eat squid, not the same food as the Bottlenose dolphin. Perhaps the bigger dolphin mistook the Risso's dolphin for a prey item. Or perhaps, like serial killers, dolphins are simply killing for the fun of it.

This might even explain why the trail of death started in the north — in Scotland — before being discovered further south, in Wales. Now it has become evident further south still, in Cornwall.

"Killing for fun" might have been invented by northern dolphins, and passed on, like a craze.




But then, dolphins also have been observed doing acts that could be considered 'good' too- such as rescuing humans from sharks or guiding ships through dangerous waters.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Evil [Re: jivJaN]
    #11752134 - 01/02/10 10:23 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

What part's confusing?  I mean, if you think that harmony would not involve the elimination of unwanted suffering please feel free to disagree but I'm not sure you would have a very compelling argument.  :shrug:


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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: Evil [Re: deCypher]
    #11752187 - 01/02/10 10:36 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

what do you mean what part is confusing ?

dont you see it yourself ?

you're creating a little paradox here.

you say that humans that would wish to eliminate unwanted suffering , would have to come together , and create a system which would do just that.

doesn't that kinda ring a bell ? :smile:

look at the world as it is right now and as it has been for a while.
the same thing you are talking about is already in motion.
only different parameters , so to speak.

doesn't it logically follow that if they share the same idea , that such a system would be completely unnecessary ?


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Evil [Re: deCypher]
    #11752426 - 01/02/10 11:44 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
How could we differentiate between animals killing for fun and animals killing for their own survival with absolute certainty?  A cursory Google skimming leads me to believe that apparently crocodiles have very slow metabolisms and thus need to eat very infrequently, yet they routinely go after human children, other crocodiles, or other smaller crocodiles when they don't need, per se, to eat.





They store food for later use just as a squirrel does. This is not malicious intent to cause suffering.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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