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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: andrewss]
    #11700567 - 12/22/09 04:54 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Stumbles, yes, that's what I think. Nietzsche will at times speak lucidly of an "ecstasy" by dissolution of the self, but other times he speaks of a practical nihilism, in the "ecstatic" (violent) irruptions of ego. These are two completely different notions, but with a single face:

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/d/dionysus.html

Quote:

Dionysus, also commonly known by his Roman name Bacchus, appears to be a god who has two distinct origins. On the one hand, Dionysus was the god of wine, agriculture, and fertility of nature, who is also the patron god of the Greek stage. On the other hand, Dionysus also represents the outstanding features of mystery religions, such as those practiced at Eleusis: ecstasy, personal delivery from the daily world through physical or spiritual intoxication, and initiation into secret rites. Scholars have long suspected that the god known as Dionysus is in fact a fusion of a local Greek nature god, and another more potent god imported rather late in Greek pre-history from Phrygia (the central area of modern day Turkey) or Thrace.




At the heart of his confusion, he mistakes the substantial roots of Dionysus as "narcotic" (Kauffman, 36) - from Gk. narkotikon, neut. of narkotikos "making stiff or numb, which is fundamentally opposed, but at the same time ritually consistent with his allusion to ecstasy, notably in dance (and as much, I would speculate, the Eleusian mysteries.)

In his self criticism he acknowledges the same mistake: "It has the double quality of a narcotic that both intoxicates and spreads a fog." (25, Kauffman) Rather ingeniously, Nietzsche reveals the mistake at hand, but still positively (doubling), or speaking from the perspective of fogginess. He cannot reconcile the fog from intoxication. So he retains his way of thinking, even if he has now sobered up.

But this does provide a hint.

A narcotic substance is what it is, and does not have a "double quality". But one might imagine that it does, if it were a misapplication and corruption of a certain ideal. Nietzsche was left positively speculating to this, but on top of his slate (so to speak, the space denoted by the fog) - even after he realized his mistake.

I would split the Dionysian of Nietzsche's narcotic irruptions of ecstacy, from its opposite, the ostensible drama (as we are here speaking) of self dissolution. He speaks about both, but the problematically, the former sets the standard.

Edited by daytripper23 (12/22/09 06:46 PM)

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: daytripper23]
    #11701481 - 12/22/09 06:43 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

mmmmm hmmmm

Here is an opening section to a part of The Gay Science (forget which)... I like it

Quote:

To the Realists… You sober people who feel well armed against passion and fantasies and would like to turn your emptiness into a matter of pride and an ornament: you call yourselves realists and hint that the world really is the way it appears to you. As if reality stood unveiled before you only, and you yourselves were perhaps the best part of it – O you beloved images of Sais! But in your unveiled state are not even you still very passionate and dark creatures compared to fish, and still far too similar to an artist in love? And what is “reality” for an artist in love? You are still burdened with those estimates of things that have their origin in the passions and loves of former centuries. Your sobriety still contains a secret and inextinguishable drunkenness. Your love of “reality,” for example – oh, that is a primeval “love.” Every feeling and sensation contains a piece of this old love; and some fantasy, some prejudice, some unreason, some ignorance, some fear, and ever so much else has contributed to it and worked on it. That mountain there! That cloud there! What is “real” in that? Subtract the phantasm and every human contribution from it, my sober friends! If you can! If you can forget your descent, your past, your training – all of your humanity and animality. There is no “reality” for us – not for you either, my sober friends. We are not nearly as different as you think, and perhaps our good will to transcend intoxication is as respectable as your faith that you are altogether incapable of intoxication.




Here is one from Human, All Too Human

Quote:

Drunk with the odour of blossoms. - The ship of mankind has, one believes, a deeper and deeper draught the more heavily it is laden; one believes that the more profoundly a man thinks, the more tenderly he feels, the more highly he rates himself, the greater the distance grows between him and the other animals - the more he appears as the genius among animals - the closer he will get to the true nature of the world and to a knowledge of it: this he does in fact do through science, but he thinks he does so even more through his arts and religions. These are, to be sure, a blossom of the world, but they are certainly not closer to the roots of the world than the stem is: they provide us with no better understanding of the nature of things at all, although almost everyone believes they do. It is error that has made mankind so profound, tender, inventive as to produce such a flower as the arts and religions. Pure knowledge would have been incapable of it. Anyone who unveiled to us the nature of the world would produce for all of us the most unpleasant disappointment. It is not the world as thing in itself, it is the world as idea (as error) that is so full of significance, profound, marvelous, and bearing in its womb all happiness and unhappiness. This consequence leads to a philosophy of logical world-denial: which can, however, be united with a practical world affirmation just as easily as with its opposite.




/pondering :chugbeer:


although these dont really relate to the Dionysian discussion, pardon me... well at least with much direct connection...


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InvisibleMnboardin
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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: daytripper23]
    #11701738 - 12/22/09 07:10 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

"It has the double quality of a narcotic that both intoxicates and spreads a fog."

He is referring to German music, which, as he is pointing out in this section , isn't Dyonisian.

Here is the full statement from Ronald Speirs' translation-

"Since then I have indeed learned to think hopelessly and unsparingly enough about this "German character", and the same applies to current German music, which is Romanticism through and through and the most un-Greak of all possible forms of art; furthermore, as a ruiner of nerves it is in the first ran, a doubly dangerous thing amongst a people who love drink and who honor obscurity as a virtue, particularly for its dual properties as a narcotic which both intoxicates and befogs the mind."

I don't think its worth getting caught up on what the translator's use of the word narcotic. I mean people refer to psychedelics with the word narcotic, but anyone who has some experience with psychedelics knows that they are not narcotic. To my mind the Dionysian, as presented in The Birth of Tragedy, is very psychedleic.



"Nietzsche will at times speak lucidly of an "ecstasy" by dissolution of the self, but other times he speaks of a practical nihilism, in the "ecstatic" (violent) irruptions of ego. These are two completely different notions, but with a single face:"

Interesting... Would you elaborate on this?


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Edited by Mnboardin (12/22/09 07:19 PM)

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: andrewss]
    #11701818 - 12/22/09 07:22 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Hmm yeah, this first one seems to be another involution of his concern. He is still speaking "from fogginess", but admits that it is still a practical matter. That is to say, there is no longer an indulgence, or any hands on equipment at this point. The fogginess has become entirely a burdensome - condensed, so it seems he swimming in it. It seems to me that Nietzsche slowly forgot the Dionysian ideal under a blunted standard of intoxication.

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: daytripper23]
    #11701893 - 12/22/09 07:33 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
It seems to me that Nietzsche slowly forgot the Dionysian ideal under a blunted standard of intoxication.




Say more about that... I dunno, I am failing to see what exactly you are critiquing.

Forgot the Dionysian ideal? What is the proper ideal?

Remember his like for creativity and perhaps we could say this is by fusion of many elements... how exactly contradictions might play into this, I dont know, maybe a sense of humor?


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InvisibleMnboardin
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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: daytripper23]
    #11701970 - 12/22/09 07:43 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Hmm yeah, this first one seems to be another involution of his concern. He is still speaking "from fogginess", but admits that it is still a practical matter. That is to say, there is no longer an indulgence, or any hands on equipment at this point. The fogginess has become entirely a burdensome - condensed, so it seems he swimming in it. It seems to me that Nietzsche slowly forgot the Dionysian ideal under a blunted standard of intoxication.




His Dionysian ideal comes back though, with a slightly different application. Check out what he has to say about it in The Will to Power-

"The two types: Dionysus and the Crucified. To determine whether the typical religious man is a form of decadence ( the great innovators are one and all morbid and epileptic); but are we not here omitting one type of religious man, the pagan? Is the pagan cult nor a form of thanksgiving and affirmation of life? Must its highest representative not be an apology for and deification of life? The type of a well-constituted and ecstatically over-flowing spirit! The type of a spirit that takes into itself and redeems the contradictions and questionable aspects of existence?

It is here I set the Dionysus of the Greeeks: the religious affirmation of life, life whole and not denied in part; (typical that the sexual act arouses profundity, mystery, reverence).

Dionysus versus the "Crucified": there you have the antithesis. It is not a difference in regard to their martyrdom-it is a difference in the meaning of it. Life itself, its eternal fruitfulness and recurrence, creates torment, destruction, the will to annihilation. In the other case, suffering-the "Crucified as the innocent one"-counts as an objection to life, as a formula for its condemnation. One will see that the problem is that of the meaning of suffering: whether a Christian meaning or a tragic meaning. In the former case, it is supposed to be the path to a holy existence; in the later case, being is counted as holy enough to justify even a monstrous amount of suffering. The tragic man affirms even the harshest suffering: he is sufficiently strong, rich, and capable of deifying to do so. The Christian denies even the happiest lot on earth: he is sufficiently weak, poor, disinherited to suffer from life in whatever form he meets it. The god on the cross is a curse on life, a signpost to seek redemption from life; Dionysian cut to pieces is a promise of life: it will be eternally reborn and return again from destruction."- from kaufmann's translation, section 1052

Anyway, I know you only wanted to focus on the birth of tragedy and the gay science and "intoxication", but uses the experience of intoxication to "...gain a closer understanding..." of the dionysian, as he defines it in that book. Intoxication is used as an analogy for the dionysian, but it isn't it entirely. So I think it would be better to focus on his concept of the Dionysian.

Edited by Mnboardin (12/22/09 07:53 PM)

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InvisibleMnboardin
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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: andrewss]
    #11702014 - 12/22/09 07:49 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

andrewss said:
Quote:

daytripper23 said:
It seems to me that Nietzsche slowly forgot the Dionysian ideal under a blunted standard of intoxication.




Say more about that... I dunno, I am failing to see what exactly you are critiquing.

Forgot the Dionysian ideal? What is the proper ideal?

Remember his like for creativity and perhaps we could say this is by fusion of many elements... how exactly contradictions might play into this, I dont know, maybe a sense of humor?




The Dionysain ideal is "...the highest affirmation born out of fullness, out of overfullness, an unreserved yea-saying even to suffereing, even to guilt, even to everything questionable and strange about existence..." (Ecce Homo section 3 of the birth of tragedy) ...and its a insightful section. I'm tempted to post the whole thing.


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Edited by Mnboardin (12/22/09 07:52 PM)

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: Mnboardin]
    #11702534 - 12/22/09 09:01 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Part 1:

Quote:

Mnboardin said:
"It has the double quality of a narcotic that both intoxicates and spreads a fog."

He is referring to German music, which, as he is pointing out in this section , isn't Dyonisian.





Are you sure that he's not? Heres the full statement that goes a little more than what you posted. Its from some other translation, but it will suffice to demonstrate my point:

Quote:

Do people understand the nature of the task I dared to touch on back then with this book? . . . How much I now regret the fact that at the time I did not yet have the courage (or the presumptuousness?) to allow myself in every respect a personal language for such an individual  point of view and such daring exploits—that I sought labouriously to express strange new evaluations with formulas from Schopenhauer and Kant, something which basically went quite against the spirit of Kant and Schopenhauer, as well as against their tastes!* What then did Schopenhauer think about tragedy? He says, “What gives everything tragic its characteristic drive for elevation is the working out of the recognition that the world, that life, can provide no proper satisfaction, and thus our devotion to it is not worthwhile; the tragic spirit consists of that insight—it leads therefore to resignation” (The World as Will and Idea, II,3,37). O how differently Dionysus spoke to me! O how far from me then was precisely this whole doctrine of resignation! But there is something much worse about my book, something which I now regret even more than to have obscured and spoiled Dionysian premonitions with formulas from Schopenhauer: namely, that I generally ruined for myself the magnificent problem of the Greeks, as it arose in me, by mixing it up with the most modern issues! I regret that I tied myself to hopes where there was nothing to hope for, where everything indicated all too clearly an end point! That, on the basis of the most recent German music, I began to tell stories of the “German character,” as if that character might be just about to discover itself, to find itself again—and that at a time when the German spirit, which not so long before still had the desire to rule Europe and the power to assume leadership of Europe, was, as its final testament, simply abdicating forever and, beneath the ostentatious pretext of founding an empire, making the transition to a conciliatory moderation, to democracy and “modern ideas”! As a matter of fact, in the intervening years I have learned to think of that “German character” with a sufficient lack of hope and of mercy—similarly with contemporary German music, which is Romantic through and through and the most un-Greek of all possible art forms, and besides that, a first-rate corrupter of the nerves, doubly dangerous among a people who love drink and esteem lack of clarity as a virtue, because that has the dual character of a drug which simultaneously intoxicates and befuddles the mind.—Of course, set apart from all the rash hopes and defective practical applications to present times with which I then spoiled my first book for myself, the great Dionysian question mark still remains as it is set out there, also in relation to music: How would one have to create a music which is no longer Romantic in origin, like the German—but Dionysian?





What we can see here is that there were many levels of arising to arrive at this "german character", and his present criticism of it. So I'd say your correct that here he is saying its not Dionysian, but that criticism is of his previous ideal that was mistaken:

So isn't he is referring to his youthful, idealistic notions of German music, which at the time, were arising from this potent kernal of Dionysus? Precisely so that even then, when he says this "music is intoxicating!" he wouldn't be speaking directly "of Dionysus himself", but indirectly, in his manner of idealistic criticism - of the Greeks, and significant to this work (and as it remains as he closes this section), of a certain Greek ideal that is Dionysus.

You've picked up that I am further tracing this "obscured" face of Dionysus to his own kernal that is substance. I would think that this root is necessary insomuch that it is specifically intoxicating. Further it substantiates and distinguishes the two historic faces of Dionysus - one rooted in the Elusian mysteries, and the later "corruption", or so I tend to think...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysian_Mysteries

About "narcotic" Ive checked a few english translations, and they all show "narcotic" which is derived from Greek. I assumed that this would probably pan over from original German, but I could be wrong with this assumption. Maybe Lakefingers can clarify this.

I will elaborate further, just trying to keep things tidy, and hopefully open.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: Mnboardin]
    #11702831 - 12/22/09 09:36 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

This is very good by the way, I just wanted to stay close to some text, while having a certain focus in mind.

I'm glad to see birth of tragedy eclipsed, this seems necessary even. I was about to chuck the book two nights ago, but seeing his later writings I am going to keep reading

BTW his self criticism is pretty incredible, it really bit into me actually.

Heh, I've actually got a story to tell about this book, maybe later though, if I need to clarify any more emotional outbursts on my part.  :burnbabyburn:


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: daytripper23]
    #11703578 - 12/22/09 11:58 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I wonder if he picks on Schopenhauer's concept of the tragic because it embodied a bit of that nauseating nihilistic realization that he might have felt deep down, the yes saying aspect of the Dionysian and that elation have a relation to the route of perhaps producing an orgy of strange feeling to awake and envigorate the mind set into a joy with life. Yes but at the very bottom one is hyper conscious enough feel a little dread in the Schopenhauerian admission...

Though it might tie into the seemingly "sadistic" fixation on honesty and self betrayal so as to be able to "feel" that he talks about in his Genealogy, perhaps he was himself suffering of the ascetic type of deal - refer to the ending sections of The Genealogy Of Morality's 3rd treatise for some context... I'll try to come up with something later on if I think this train of thought is worthwhile :gethigh:

i think it is interesting to speculate about how he actually lived... no matter what one concludes about much of his thought, his life is pretty mysterious and interesting (because of all the self drama and madness). How he fell into a stupor is so interesting, not many people like him :lol: - and nobody can say for sure what it was.

Karl Jasper's information about his "demise" is pretty interesting... ok enuf :chugbeer:


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InvisibleMnboardin
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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: andrewss]
    #11704898 - 12/23/09 09:10 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I'm actually hoping to get a biography about Nietzsche from santa, just to gain a new perspective on his philosophy.

I know that he was sick, and very lonely. A lot of his philosophy may have been the result of his attempt to think his way out of his the terrible feelings he was feeling; especially his concept of the Dionysian...

Anyway, I'll write more later. It's too early in the morning for this kind of stuff...


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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... *DELETED* [Re: daytripper23]
    #11715603 - 12/25/09 04:11 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... *DELETED* [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11715615 - 12/25/09 04:22 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11716852 - 12/25/09 12:53 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Is that guy full up in himself or what?:monkeydance:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11716910 - 12/25/09 01:12 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Quote:

Will and wave.-- How greedily this wave approaches, as if it were after something" How it crawls
with terrifying haste into the inmost nooks of this laybrinthine cliff! It seems that it is trying to anticipate
someone; it seems that something of value, high value, must be hidden there.---And now it comes back, a little
more slowly but still quite white with excitement; is it disappointed? Has it found what it looked for? Does it
pretend to be disappointed?--But already another wave is approaching, still more greedily and savagely than the first,
and its soul, too, seems to be full of secrets and the lust to dig up treasures. Thus live waves--thus live we who
will--more I shall not say.
    So? You mistrust me? You are angry with me, you beautiful monsters? Are you afraid that I might give away
your whole secret? Well, be angry with me, arch your dangerous green bodies as high as you can, raise a wall
between me and the sun--as you are doing now! Truly, even now nothing remains of the world but green twilight
and green lightning. Carry on as you like, roaring with overweening pleasure and malice--or dive again, pouring
your emeralds down into the deepest depths, and throw your infinite white mane of foam and spray over them:
Everything suits me, for everything suits you so well, and I am so well-disposed toward you for everything; how could I
think of betraying you? For--mark my word!--I know you and your secret, I know your kind! You and I--are we not of one
kind?--You and I--do we not have one secret?




The Gay Science, Kaufmann translation §310.




Hmmmm...

Not sure I remember that one. One secret?


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11717610 - 12/25/09 04:45 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

:fishing:
:smirk:

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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: daytripper23]
    #11717837 - 12/25/09 05:44 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

:cheers:


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: andrewss]
    #11718054 - 12/25/09 06:53 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

One ocean I think,
A secret, or preferred drink?
:bongload:
samtsirhc yrrem

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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... *DELETED* [Re: andrewss]
    #11720192 - 12/26/09 06:03 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11722357 - 12/26/09 05:37 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I just liked the prosey poetry of it I wasnt sure it was trying to say all that much, sometimes he just throws in simple things highlighted by a lot of good words. A reason why I read him.

I'll take a gander at that section in a bit...

Edit:


I re read the Will and Wave section, Kaufmann, has a lot to say about it... here is some of what he interprets:

Quote:

What he shares with the waves is the overflowing vitality that never comes to a stop - not because it has failed to find what it was looking for but because this constant play is its life. A critic might object: How can one speak of Nietzsche's overflowing vitality when he was sick and in pain much of the time? But neither his doctors' advice to save his half-blind eyes by giving up reading and writing nor his migraine headaches and other torments stopped him...

... These reflections are relevant to Nietzsche's conception of the eternal recurrence of the same events, which is first presented in this book. The absence of all purpose and meaning, to which one's first reaction may well be nausea or despair, can be experienced as liberating and delightful in what Nietzsche later calls a "Dionysian" persepctive.




:strokebeard:


I really liked 311 "Refracted Light" - I remember really liking it when I first read "The Gay Science" ... I gotta post it...


Quote:

Refracted Light.- One is not always bold and when one grows tired then one of us, too, is aprt to moan like this: It is so hard to hurt people - oh, why is it necessary! What does it profit us to live in seculusion when we refuse to keep to ourselves what gives offense? Would it not be more advisable to live in the swarm and to make up to individuals the sins that should and must be committed against all? To be foolish with fools, vain with the vain, and enthusiastic with enthusiasts? Wouldn't that be fair, given such overweening deviation on the whole? When I hear of malice of others against me - isn't my first reaction one of satisfaction? Quite right! I seem to be saying to them - I am so ill-attuned to you and have so much truth on my side that you might as well have a good day at my expense whenever you can! Here are my faults and blunders, here my delusion, my bad taste, my confusion, my tears, my vanity, my owlish seclusion, my contradictions. Here you can laugh. Laugh, then, and be merry! I do not resent the law and nature of things according to which faults and blunders cause merriment.

"To be sure, times used to be more 'beautiful' when anyone with a halfway new idea could still feel so indispensible that he would go out into the street and shout at everyone: 'Behold, the kingdom of heaven is at hand!' - I should not miss myself if I were not there. All of us are dispensable."

But, to repeat it, that is not how we think when we are bold; then we don't think of this.




Kaufmann throws this in from a letter from Nietzsche to Gast:

Quote:

"... To this day, my whole philosophy totters after an hour's sympathetic conversation with total strangers: it seems so foolish to me to wish to be right at the price of love, and not be able to communicate what one considers most valuable lest one destroy the sympathy. Hinc meae lacrimae [hence my tears]."




:thumbup:

:chugbeer:





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Edited by andrewss (12/26/09 06:31 PM)

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