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Invisibleavorg
Quixotic
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Posts: 1,348
Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: avorg]
    #11714696 - 12/24/09 11:27 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Can I get a witness?

:bow2:

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Invisibledanielx
whatup!
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Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 6,500
Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: Citizen13]
    #11714784 - 12/24/09 11:53 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

avorg said:
The greater production on pasteurized substrate is due to the organisms left after pasteurization




Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
By 'cooking', we release more of what the mycelium needs. 




Did you even read anything I said?

The PDF file says that pasteurization leaves organisms which is good.

RR said that pasteurization releases what mycelium needs.

Going back to my original question, what does it release? How does it release it? All questions yet to be answered.

From what I understand, Pasteurization or no pasteurization the beneficial organisms will be there. But the point of pasturizing is to get the harmful organisms down, whilst leaving the beneficial ones; therefore, giving the edge to the beneficial bacteria.

but how does this add more of what mycelium needs? From my understanding your not adding anything, your just giving it the edge over contams. So I ask again for proof of added nutrients and things mycelium need through the process.


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Long live kratom :kratom:

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Invisibledanielx
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Posts: 6,500
Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: danielx]
    #11714805 - 12/24/09 11:56 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

if RR told me to start pissing in my subs because its beneficial id ask for proof. I wouldn't just trust his judgment and start doing it. skepticism is all it is.


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Long live kratom :kratom:

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InvisibleDoc_T
Random Dude
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Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado Flag
Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: christdriver]
    #11714870 - 12/25/09 12:07 AM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

christdriver said:
boil water right in pressure cooker, additives poured in and stirred, coir dropped in, lid on.




I did it just like that, with great results, for hundreds of tubs. If it works, don't change anything. :thumbup:


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You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?

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Invisibleavorg
Quixotic
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: avorg]
    #11714946 - 12/25/09 12:22 AM (15 years, 26 days ago)

I'll post it again for slow learners, with a paraphrase after.

Quote:

avorg said:
The greater production on pasteurized substrate is due to the organisms
left after pasteurization and because those organisms use the hemicellulose.
In using the hemicellulose, the beneficial organisms that are left after
pasteurization multiply. The organisms that have multiplied form a kind of
food that the mushrooms can use. That is, oyster mushrooms “eat” the
organisms that have grown on the hemicellulose that the mushrooms could
not use directly. There are indications that organisms, which are left after
pasteurization provide much of the nitrogen required by the mushrooms.
They may fix nitrogen from the atmosphere. So the purpose of pasteurization
is not to get rid of all organisms, but to get rid of those that compete with the
mushrooms and to INCREASE the organisms that discourage diseases,
consume hemicellulose, provide nitrogen, and become food for the
mushrooms.




So substrates contain hemicellulose, which beneficial organisms eat, but fungus cannot. The fungus in turn eats these organisms and their metabolites(nitrogen, etc.) while these organisms help fight off invading contaminates.

So what does pasteurizing release? While this may be a poorly worded statement on RR's part, it remains valid. Though pasteurizing itself does not "release" anything, it enables microorganisms to do so.

For your second argument, wouldn't the beneficial ones be there either way? Yes they would, but...

If it's not beneficial, than what is it class?

The correct answer is detrimental(or neutral for bonus points). So without pasteurizing you leave all of the above. Therefore you give detrimental ones an opportunity to overtake beneficial ones. In doing so they may cause several conditions. They may use all available nutrients, they may completely contaminate a substrate, or the real kicker. They may defeat all beneficial organisms, thereby not allowing the aforementioned processes to take place, and preventing the "release" of more readily available food for the fungus.

So in conclusion, when pasteurized a process takes place that allows the "release" of added food for mushrooms. Without pasteurization, this process might take place but is far less likely considering all competing organisms, and may not allow a substrate to reach it's full potential.

Good lord I feel like I wrote a thesis paper. While coir may be less likely to contam, it is not bullet proof. To those who have had success without pasteurizing I say kudos. But keep this in mind, no two grows are the same, and no two growers are the same. Not to mention growing conditions.

If there's nothing else than I believe this has been settled.

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Invisibledanielx
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: avorg]
    #11714955 - 12/25/09 12:24 AM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

avorg said:
So what does pasteurizing release? While this may be a poorly worded statement on RR's part, it remains valid. Though pasteurizing itself does not "release" anything, it enables microorganisms to do so




so its settled, pasteurization doesn't release anything. merry christmas :rastamon: :heart:


--------------------
Long live kratom :kratom:

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Invisibleavorg
Quixotic
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Posts: 1,348
Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: Doc_T]
    #11714962 - 12/25/09 12:26 AM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Doc_T:

after reading your post it occurred to me that this may be why people find coir to be so contam proof. don't you think that method is in itself a way of pasteurizing the substrate?

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Invisibleavorg
Quixotic
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: danielx]
    #11714969 - 12/25/09 12:27 AM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

danielx said:
so its settled, pasteurization doesn't release anything. merry christmas :rastamon: :heart:





are you trying to be funny, or just a dick?

merry christmas, to those who celebrate!

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Invisibleavorg
Quixotic
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Registered: 12/02/04
Posts: 1,348
Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: danielx]
    #11714995 - 12/25/09 12:34 AM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

danielx said:
Quote:

avorg said:
So what does pasteurizing release? While this may be a poorly worded statement on RR's part, it remains valid. Though pasteurizing itself does not "release" anything, it enables microorganisms to do so




so its settled, pasteurization doesn't release anything. merry christmas :rastamon: :heart:





I get the feeling that was the last thing you read...

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Invisibledanielx
whatup!
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: avorg]
    #11714996 - 12/25/09 12:34 AM (15 years, 26 days ago)

nope, its christmas, and we can agree pasturizing doesn't release anything. smoking a bowl and about to go to bed.

:feelsgoodman:


--------------------
Long live kratom :kratom:

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Invisibleanonjon
Partially Right

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: danielx]
    #11715676 - 12/25/09 05:02 AM (15 years, 26 days ago)

I spent some time researching this online. I expected to find that heating cellulose helps break it down for digestion, but did not. It seems one would have to heat it up to about 320 degrees in an acid bath to have this effect.

I really couldn't find any support for this view.

The micro-organism argument seems to apply more to straw than coir. Lot's of peeps around here simply add boiling water to coir. Seems like sterilization to me.

It's possible sterilization / hydration is the only point to adding hot water to coir. Can anyone find any evidence that the heat is breaking anything down? Any evidence that pasteurization > sterilization for coir?

I know RR has stated that sterilizing straw frequently results in a bacterial bloom. Has anyone else experienced this?


--------------------
The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


:moon:  :moon:  :moon:  :moon:    :moon:

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OfflinePocketRevolution
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Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 270
Last seen: 7 months, 27 days
Let's settle it [Re: danielx]
    #11721159 - 12/26/09 12:28 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

I was going to suggest that you do some research and report back to us.  Then I got to the post in which you truncated a quotation mid-sentence because the latter half of the sentence damaged your position.

Clearly we can't trust the impartiality of your results.  So instead, I myself will do the research.

I don't have the capacity to do agar work, so instead I plan to divide a series of half-pint grain jars in half by weight.

I believe using grain to grain jars from the same transfer will give more even results than multispore, and splitting each jar in half should also help compensate for differences due to genetics.

Half of each jar will be mixed with hydrated coir, half with pasteurized coir, in identical containers.  These will be fruited uncased in the same terrarium(s).  I'm thinking 4 jars = 8 small substrates. They will be placed alternatingly in every stage to ensure even distribution of factors (position on shelf, distance from light, etc.)

Right now I don't have anything handy for doing transfers from, so it's not going to happen very quickly.  I'm going to have to start from MS, grow that out, transfer, grow, then divide and spawn.

My pasteurization method is a large electric frying pan turned down low, with an instant-read thermometer inserted through the lid.  150 degrees for anywhere from 2 to 6 hours depending how long I forget about it for.

I realize this isn't going to satisfy anyone who's more bent on being right than finding out how to grow more and better mushrooms, but I'm sure somebody can benefit from it.

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Invisibleanonjon
Partially Right

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
Re: Let's settle it [Re: PocketRevolution]
    #11721483 - 12/26/09 01:53 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

PocketRevolution said:

Clearly we can't trust the impartiality of your results.  So instead, I myself will do the research.

I don't have the capacity to do agar work, so instead I plan to divide a series of half-pint grain jars in half by weight.






You're right that grain to grain will accomplish what you want, but I don't get saying that don't have the capacity to do agar work. There's so many recipes for agar that can be attained at the grocery store and quarter pint jars make great agar plates:



--------------------
The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


:moon:  :moon:  :moon:  :moon:    :moon:

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