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Offlinepftek
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Preparing Coir - Any reason???
    #11711857 - 12/24/09 12:52 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Any reason to pour it into a bucket rather than just keep it in the pressure cooker and sealing it off?

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InvisibleShea25
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: pftek]
    #11711870 - 12/24/09 12:54 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Just hydrate it and get it to field capacity there is no need to pasteurize or sterilize it

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OfflineThyrax
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: Shea25]
    #11711963 - 12/24/09 01:10 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Shea25 said:
Just hydrate it and get it to field capacity there is no need to pasteurize or sterilize it




yeah ive had success hydrating coir in very hot water and not pasteurizing it. But I always prefer to be on the safe side anyway.


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Invisiblechristdriver
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: pftek]
    #11712009 - 12/24/09 01:18 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

i use my pressure cooker all the time instead of a bucket, with the lid sealed.works great.less cleanup.

im sure one of the older folk stuck in their ways are gonna come on here saying you have to hydrate and bake it to maintain core pasteurization temps.ive done over 100 monotubs with only two contams before the fifth flush.you do the math.

boil water right in pressure cooker, additives poured in and stirred, coir dropped in, lid on.


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ToiletDuk said:

This much we do know: the vagina is a dark and scary place, filled with strange creatures and Mormons.

bathtub shitters unite!

Fraggin said:
I dont wanna site ban.
I'm just tired of looking at dead babies and cripple sex.

ALABAMSLIM BURNS POPTARTS.

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Invisiblemister
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: christdriver]
    #11712371 - 12/24/09 02:28 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

I just boil water for 2 bricks at once and put everything for the 2 in a 5 gallon bucket, put in bricks, additives and then the boiling water. Then put the lid on and set the tub up the next day.


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:mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow:AMU Q & A thread:mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow:

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InvisibleCitizen13
Jack's wasted life.


Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 1,319
Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: Shea25]
    #11712449 - 12/24/09 02:41 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Shea25 said:
Just hydrate it and get it to field capacity there is no need to pasteurize or sterilize it




RR was saying the other day that pastuerizing coir unlocks nutrients within.

:shrug:

just repeating what he said, don't quote me on that.


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InvisibleCH HELL
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: mister]
    #11712502 - 12/24/09 02:52 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

mister said:
I just boil water for 2 bricks at once and put everything for the 2 in a 5 gallon bucket, put in bricks, additives and then the boiling water. Then put the lid on and set the tub up the next day.




:thumbup:This is the way I do it also,  doing it this way you don't have to worry about storing what you have left over it is already in a storage container.
CH

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Invisibledanielx
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: Citizen13]
    #11712513 - 12/24/09 02:54 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Citizen13 said:
Quote:

Shea25 said:
Just hydrate it and get it to field capacity there is no need to pasteurize or sterilize it




RR was saying the other day that pastuerizing coir unlocks nutrients within.

:shrug:

just repeating what he said, don't quote me on that.




thats retarded if he said that. just more bs speculation im sure. Although i always pasteurize all my substrates to be on the safe side. :thumbup:


--------------------
Long live kratom :kratom:

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InvisibleCitizen13
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: danielx]
    #11712554 - 12/24/09 03:00 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

here is the post for reference:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
All bulk substrates including coir should be pasteurized.  There's more to pasteurization than just killing mold spores.  By 'cooking', we release more of what the mycelium needs.  Performance is almost always better on pasteurized bulk substrates than on non-pasteurized.

I've often said coir can be used with no heat treatment, but that's more in answer to someone with green mold on their tray.  My point is that it's the spawn which was contaminated, not the coir.  You'll find performance is better if you'll pasteurize the coir.
RR




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Invisibledanielx
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: Citizen13]
    #11712586 - 12/24/09 03:05 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

more of what the myc needs? My problem with RR is that he never cites any sources or evidence. he just throws shit out there. What is more there? Why is it more there? Why is it not there before pasteurization? :shrug:


--------------------
Long live kratom :kratom:

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Offlinecowfodder
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: danielx]
    #11712596 - 12/24/09 03:07 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

danielx said:
Quote:

Citizen13 said:
Quote:

Shea25 said:
Just hydrate it and get it to field capacity there is no need to pasteurize or sterilize it




RR was saying the other day that pastuerizing coir unlocks nutrients within.

:shrug:

just repeating what he said, don't quote me on that.




thats retarded if he said that. just more bs speculation im sure. Although i always pasteurize all my substrates to be on the safe side. :thumbup:





Yeah, because thermal breakdown of plant cell walls is completely unknown?  Most rigid, woody plant fibers need some sort of processing to be biologically available to a lot of organisms.  He doesn't cite sources because it's common fucking sense.


--------------------
"“Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather.""
—Bill Hicks


:guitarhero:

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InvisibleCitizen13
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Posts: 1,319
Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: cowfodder]
    #11712603 - 12/24/09 03:09 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

:fishgun:

BLAM


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Invisibledanielx
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: cowfodder]
    #11712605 - 12/24/09 03:10 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

thats common sense? :rofl2:


--------------------
Long live kratom :kratom:

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Invisibledanielx
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: danielx]
    #11712630 - 12/24/09 03:14 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

not that I buy it anyway. Composting and heating a substrate up for an hour are two different things.


--------------------
Long live kratom :kratom:

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Offlinecowfodder
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: danielx]
    #11712641 - 12/24/09 03:15 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

danielx said:
thats common sense? :rofl2:




That a coprophilic mushroom would have an easier time digesting a woody substance that had already been partially broken down by heat?  Yeah, I'd think that anyone who would claim to know a lot about mushroom cultivation would find that to be common sense.
:shrug:


--------------------
"“Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather.""
—Bill Hicks


:guitarhero:

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Invisibledanielx
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: cowfodder]
    #11712655 - 12/24/09 03:17 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

cowfodder said:
Quote:

danielx said:
thats common sense? :rofl2:




That a coprophilic mushroom would have an easier time digesting a woody substance that had already been partially broken down by heat?  Yeah, I'd think that anyone who would claim to know a lot about mushroom cultivation would find that to be common sense.
:shrug:




since when does pasteurization break something down? And im not sure where anyone here claimed to know alot about mushroom cultivation. my beef is with people making uncited claims and toted it as science.


--------------------
Long live kratom :kratom:

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InvisibleOptx
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: Shea25]
    #11712710 - 12/24/09 03:27 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Shea25 said:
Just hydrate it and get it to field capacity there is no need to pasteurize or sterilize it




WTF? most coir has trich added to it. go ahead and don't pasteurize it and see what happens.
if you have no idea what you're talking about, please do not give advice. all you're doing is spreading misinformation and confusing the noobs.
:facepalm:

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OfflineThyrax
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: Citizen13]
    #11712717 - 12/24/09 03:28 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Citizen13 said:
:fishgun:

BLAM



QFT


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InvisibleOptx
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: danielx]
    #11712726 - 12/24/09 03:29 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

danielx said:
since when does pasteurization break something down? And im not sure where anyone here claimed to know alot about mushroom cultivation. my beef is with people making uncited claims and toted it as science.




are you really asking since when does heat break something down? seriously? this is a joke right?

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Offlinecowfodder
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: danielx]
    #11712727 - 12/24/09 03:29 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

danielx said:
Quote:

cowfodder said:
Quote:

danielx said:
thats common sense? :rofl2:




That a coprophilic mushroom would have an easier time digesting a woody substance that had already been partially broken down by heat?  Yeah, I'd think that anyone who would claim to know a lot about mushroom cultivation would find that to be common sense.
:shrug:




since when does pasteurization break something down? And im not sure where anyone here claimed to know alot about mushroom cultivation. my beef is with people making uncited claims and toted it as science.




Well, off the top of my head, and I'm saying this is possibly what RR could have meant, pasteurization temperatures are around 150-170 degrees.  Enzymatic breakdown of complex sugars into easily digestible sugars occurs at 152-174 degrees.  The whole point of pasteurization over sterilization is too keep beneficial bacteria alive, while killing off any destructive molds.  These beneficial bacteria survive by enzymatically breaking down complex sugars and starches into simple sugars, ergo, pasteurizing coir helps to break it down into something more easily digested by a coprophilic mushroom.  This is just educated speculation, and as I don't feel like arguing, and I've got to leave for my Great-Grandmother's house, I'm going to leave it at that.


--------------------
"“Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather.""
—Bill Hicks


:guitarhero:

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InvisibleShea25
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: Optx]
    #11712728 - 12/24/09 03:29 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

I have seen what happens when its not pasteurized it works every time. I do know what im talking about. And I don't spread misinformation. Take a look at my rating my info has help alot of people :thumbup: Thats alot more then I can say for yours. I have lots of experience with growing mushrooms different species and keeping a success rate at around 99%. Maybe you can learn from some of my posts http://www.shroomery.org/forums/dosearch.php?namebox=198990

Edited by Shea25 (12/24/09 03:32 PM)

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Offlinecowfodder
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: Optx]
    #11712751 - 12/24/09 03:33 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Optx said:
Quote:

Shea25 said:
Just hydrate it and get it to field capacity there is no need to pasteurize or sterilize it




WTF? most coir has trich added to it. go ahead and don't pasteurize it and see what happens.
if you have no idea what you're talking about, please do not give advice. all you're doing is spreading misinformation and confusing the noobs.
:facepalm:




Um, only one or two brands of coir have trichoderma added to them, and those say specifically on the packaging that they have molds and bacteria added for plant growth.  Most coir does not have anything added to it.  A lot of the people around here buy the coir made for reptile bedding, which would not have a mold added to it.


--------------------
"“Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather.""
—Bill Hicks


:guitarhero:

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InvisibleOptx
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: Shea25]
    #11712760 - 12/24/09 03:33 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Shea25 said:
I have seen what happens when its not pasteurized it works every time. I do know what im talking about. And I don't spread misinformation. Take a look at my rating my info has help alot of people :thumbup: Thats alot more then I can say for yours. I have lots of experience with growing mushrooms different species and keeping a success rate at around 99%. Maybe you can learn from some of my posts http://www.shroomery.org/forums/dosearch.php?namebox=198990




you are a moron. most coir has trich, all bulk subs should be pasteurized. also, stick your ratings up your ass. and i'm done with this thread.

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InvisibleCitizen13
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: Optx]
    #11712782 - 12/24/09 03:36 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Optx said:
Quote:

Shea25 said:
I have seen what happens when its not pasteurized it works every time. I do know what im talking about. And I don't spread misinformation. Take a look at my rating my info has help alot of people :thumbup: Thats alot more then I can say for yours. I have lots of experience with growing mushrooms different species and keeping a success rate at around 99%. Maybe you can learn from some of my posts http://www.shroomery.org/forums/dosearch.php?namebox=198990




you are a moron. most coir has trich, all bulk subs should be pasteurized. also, stick your ratings up your ass. and i'm done with this thread.



Quote:

Optx said:
Quote:

Shea25 said:
I have seen what happens when its not pasteurized it works every time. I do know what im talking about. And I don't spread misinformation. Take a look at my rating my info has help alot of people :thumbup: Thats alot more then I can say for yours. I have lots of experience with growing mushrooms different species and keeping a success rate at around 99%. Maybe you can learn from some of my posts http://www.shroomery.org/forums/dosearch.php?namebox=198990




you are a moron. most coir has trich, all bulk subs should be pasteurized. also, stick your ratings up your ass. and i'm done with this thread.




never have i seen trich on any of my coir



so if most coir has trich on it, then i wonder why i get so lucky?


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InvisibleShea25
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: Citizen13]
    #11712793 - 12/24/09 03:38 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Maybe he buys the special coir with trich added :lmafo: lol and he calls me the moron :facepalm:

Edited by Shea25 (12/24/09 03:40 PM)

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Invisibledanielx
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: cowfodder]
    #11712837 - 12/24/09 03:46 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

like I said, all just speculation. I hate hearing speculative theories passed off as scientific facts.


--------------------
Long live kratom :kratom:

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Invisiblemister
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: Shea25]
    #11712854 - 12/24/09 03:50 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

The reason I pasturize mine is that I use gypsum, verm, coffee and I feel better about that. Plus it does store in the container for a couple days if I can't get to it right away.


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:mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow:AMU Q & A thread:mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow:

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InvisibleCitizen13
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: mister]
    #11712868 - 12/24/09 03:52 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

mister said:
The reason I pasturize mine is that I use gypsum, verm, coffee and I feel better about that. Plus it does store in the container for a couple days if I can't get to it right away.




for sure! especially with the coffee added. you HAVE to pasteurize that.

anyone that has ever forgot about a used coffee filter in their coffee maker can attest to how fast mold will grow on it :laugh:


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Invisiblemister
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: danielx]
    #11712874 - 12/24/09 03:53 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

danielx said:
like I said, all just speculation. I hate hearing speculative theories passed off as scientific facts.




Well start by looking up all the coir grows on here and then tell us how many pasturize and how many don't. Then tell us how many contamed and how many did not. Then give us flush weights for them and compare. Argue your point with facts and numbers and not talk, since you are the one who dis-likes speculation.


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:mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow:AMU Q & A thread:mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow:

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Invisiblemister
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: mister]
    #11712888 - 12/24/09 03:55 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Science is found through trial and error as well. First a hypothesis is made, then the trial and error (which there is plenty to find here), then the findings are reported and made into fact. The process of science right here.


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:mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow:AMU Q & A thread:mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow:

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Invisibledanielx
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: mister]
    #11713001 - 12/24/09 04:15 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

your preaching to the choir, I pasteurize all my substrates. The burden of proof is on the person making the claims.


--------------------
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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: danielx]
    #11713138 - 12/24/09 04:42 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

danielx said:
Quote:

Citizen13 said:
Quote:

Shea25 said:
Just hydrate it and get it to field capacity there is no need to pasteurize or sterilize it




RR was saying the other day that pastuerizing coir unlocks nutrients within.

:shrug:

just repeating what he said, don't quote me on that.




thats retarded if he said that. just more bs speculation im sure. Although i always pasteurize all my substrates to be on the safe side. :thumbup:




I speak from experience based on nearly four decades of mushroom growing, which I freely share with others.  If that's not good enough, you're free to disregard it.


Quote:

danielx said:
The burden of proof is on the person making the claims.



Exactly.  That places the burden of proof is on you to prove the above is retarded bs speculation.  I think we're all curious what part about the commonly accepted science of heat breaking down cell structure to make it easier to digest you don't understand.  Apparently you don't cook your food?
RR


--------------------
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InvisibleCitizen13
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11713142 - 12/24/09 04:43 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

:fishgun:

BLAM BLAM


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Invisibledanielx
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11713186 - 12/24/09 04:57 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

I cook my food so I don't get food poisoning. Not because it magically adds nutrients. I can understand pasteurizing to avoid contams. That was never the original contention though.

I guess I just like to see more then anecdotal evidence. Actually, I haven't even seen that yet. Like i said, the burden of proof is on you. If the proof is your word, then :shrug:


--------------------
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InvisibleCitizen13
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: danielx]
    #11713231 - 12/24/09 05:08 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

danielx said:
I cook my food so I don't get food poisoning. Not because it magically adds nutrients. I can understand pasteurizing to avoid contams. That was never the original contention though.

I guess I just like to see more then anecdotal evidence. Actually, I haven't even seen that yet. Like i said, the burden of proof is on you. If the proof is your word, then :shrug:




thats argument is fallacy 101.

he said something that most take as truth, and you disputed it.

burden of proof is on you my friend.


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Invisibledanielx
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: Citizen13]
    #11713275 - 12/24/09 05:16 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Citizen13 said:
Quote:

danielx said:
I cook my food so I don't get food poisoning. Not because it magically adds nutrients. I can understand pasteurizing to avoid contams. That was never the original contention though.

I guess I just like to see more then anecdotal evidence. Actually, I haven't even seen that yet. Like i said, the burden of proof is on you. If the proof is your word, then :shrug:




thats argument is fallacy 101.

he said something that most take as truth, and you disputed it.

burden of proof is on you my friend.




most take as truth? like who? Maybe im not as versed in the subject as you citizen. If its truth, and everyone knows its truth. then there should be no problem citing your sources and showing relevant proof. im still waiting on it.


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Offlinexbrutalx233
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: Optx]
    #11713388 - 12/24/09 05:36 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

I am pretty sure the heat breaks down the material enough so the mushroom can feed off of it with more ease...
Quote:

Optx said:
Quote:

Shea25 said:
I have seen what happens when its not pasteurized it works every time. I do know what im talking about. And I don't spread misinformation. Take a look at my rating my info has help alot of people :thumbup: Thats alot more then I can say for yours. I have lots of experience with growing mushrooms different species and keeping a success rate at around 99%. Maybe you can learn from some of my posts http://www.shroomery.org/forums/dosearch.php?namebox=198990




you are a moron. most coir has trich, all bulk subs should be pasteurized. also, stick your ratings up your ass. and i'm done with this thread.




I've used several brands of coir and none I've ever seen has trich... So, I think you should educate yourself a little better before you go around calling people morons.


--------------------
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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: danielx]
    #11713517 - 12/24/09 06:14 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Like some other nutrients, lycopene is locked within the fibrous portions of fruits and vegetables. Cooking actually releases the lycopene in tomatoes, for example, so that cooked pasta sauce will be a richer source of lycopene than the raw tomatoes on your salad.



The above taken from http://www.britannica.com/bps/additionalcontent/18/35949053/Recipe-for-Maximum-Nutrition

Quote:

Scientists are finding that various methods of cooking veggies—from boiling carrots to steaming broccoli—can actually boost certain nutrients. "Some of the healthiest plant pigments in vegetables are released only when they're cooked," says Elizabeth Johnson, Ph.D., a scientist at the Friedman School of Nutrition Science and Policy at Tufts University. "You get more carotenoids, for example, from steamed spinach than from a spinach salad."



The above taken from: http://health.msn.com/nutrition/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100248585

Quote:

Raw veg is no answer, however: cooking can release nutrients that your body would otherwise be unable to absorb.



The above quote taken from: http://www.bbc.co.uk/bloom/actions/cookingtips.shtml

There's 63,985 more hits related my search query of "does cooking releases nutrients in food?", but those should make the point.  Remember, if you're in doubt about something, Google can often answer your question without a pissing match.
RR


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InvisibleCitizen13
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11713520 - 12/24/09 06:15 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

lol i made the same search query but when all those hits came up i just said fuck it.


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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11713527 - 12/24/09 06:17 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

now cite sources for your original claim, then I can stand corrected.


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Offlinexbrutalx233
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: danielx]
    #11713553 - 12/24/09 06:23 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

danielx said:
now cite sources for your original claim, then I can stand corrected.




Are you still arguing? It's quite obvious RR knows what he is talking about, he's proven it many times... There's no shame in just admitting you were wrong. It's better than looking ridiculous. Heat obviously releases nutrients. What more do you need.


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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: xbrutalx233]
    #11713576 - 12/24/09 06:27 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

lycopene in fruits is quite different then mushrooms. I want to see the flat out evidence, then ill have learned something new and stand corrected.

misinformation often gets passed around because one person says it. If there is truth to this, then I want to see the facts. I don't want to see opinions.


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InvisibleCitizen13
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: xbrutalx233]
    #11713584 - 12/24/09 06:27 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

that heat releases nutrients?

this is what you said:

Quote:

danielx said:
thats common sense? :rofl2:
since when does pasteurization break something down? And im not sure where anyone here claimed to know alot about mushroom cultivation. my beef is with people making uncited claims and toted it as science.




and then he cited many many sources that showed that it does.


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Invisibledanielx
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: Citizen13]
    #11713597 - 12/24/09 06:30 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

".  By 'cooking', we release more of what the mycelium needs.  Performance is almost always better on pasteurized bulk substrates than on non-pasteurized."

What does it release? If mycelium needs it somebody should know.


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Offlinexbrutalx233
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: danielx]
    #11713601 - 12/24/09 06:32 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

danielx said:
".  By 'cooking', we release more of what the mycelium needs.  Performance is almost always better on pasteurized bulk substrates than on non-pasteurized."

What does it release? If mycelium needs it somebody should know.




Does it really matter WHAT it releases? We've learned it releases something, now you are just refusing to give up an argument... which is cool, you should join a debate team.


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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: xbrutalx233]
    #11713617 - 12/24/09 06:35 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

of course it matters. How else am I suppose to believe you, besides just taking your word for it?

until someone shows me proof that pasteurizing substrate releases nutrients mycelium needs im done in this thread. :cheers:


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Offlinecoldeye
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: danielx]
    #11713657 - 12/24/09 06:44 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

he wouldn't last two seconds on a debate team.  he's the kind of person that wouldn't believe the sun was hot unless you stuck him on a rocket and blasted him into it :crazy2:

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InvisibleCitizen13
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: coldeye]
    #11713690 - 12/24/09 06:53 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

obviously you've never been on a debate team or you wouldn't be using the old "Misplaced Burden of Proof" fallacy.


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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: coldeye]
    #11713712 - 12/24/09 07:00 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

coldeye said:
he wouldn't last two seconds on a debate team.  he's the kind of person that wouldn't believe the sun was hot unless you stuck him on a rocket and blasted him into it :crazy2:




I was just being sarcastic haha... The suns hot? since when?


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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: xbrutalx233]
    #11713737 - 12/24/09 07:06 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

I never made a claim. I only asked to see sources and proof for their claim. :shrug: thats all i want.


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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: danielx]
    #11713751 - 12/24/09 07:10 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

danielx said:
I never made a claim. I only asked to see sources and proof for their claim. :shrug: thats all i want.





Maybe they don't know why. Maybe it's just something they learned from experience. Just like humans learned meat and fire is a wonderful combination many eons ago. Maybe you should try it yourself and see if pasteurization yields better results?


--------------------
The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


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Invisibledanielx
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: anonjon]
    #11713774 - 12/24/09 07:16 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

good point. Science is an ever changing subject, and thats why im open to believing it. Infact I want to stand corrected. Although I dont think healthy skeptcism is a bad thing, especially when people are telling you to just use faith and believe it without showing any real proof. thats all i ever wanted to begin with. :cheers:


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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: danielx]
    #11713779 - 12/24/09 07:18 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

danielx said:
good point. Science is an ever changing subject, and thats why im open to believing it. Infact I want to stand corrected. Although I dont think healthy skeptcism is a bad thing, especially when people are telling you to just use faith and believe it without showing any real proof. thats all i ever wanted to begin with. :cheers:




I'm just happy you are not an ass about it...  I understand where you are coming from but like anonjon stated, give it a try and find out.


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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: xbrutalx233]
    #11714069 - 12/24/09 08:46 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

I love these threads because it makes it painfully obvious who to put on ignore.

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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: sansa]
    #11714124 - 12/24/09 09:01 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

:popcorn:


--------------------




:mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow:AMU Q & A thread:mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow:

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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: sansa]
    #11714223 - 12/24/09 09:24 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

sansa said:
I love these threads because it makes it painfully obvious who to put on ignore.




Nothing ignore worthy yet, just a guy asking questions... Which through taking mushrooms I've learned is never a bad thing...  As long as your not an asshole I say " what's the problem"


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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: sansa]
    #11714560 - 12/24/09 10:59 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

sansa said:
I love these threads because it makes it painfully obvious who to put on ignore.




:smilingpuppy:

for real.

@danielx

http://www.oystermushrooms.net/chap2.pdf

read page 2, labeled as page 14, I think the third paragraph. you will see that this idea is, or at least I thought, common knowledge(among avid cultivators).

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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: avorg]
    #11714604 - 12/24/09 11:07 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

that entire PDF file was about how you pasteurize not sterilize, to leave the beneficial organisms to multiply while getting rid of harmful organisms. This I know and agree with. Although to my understanding that wasn't what we were debating.  What we were debating was that the pasteurization process adds nutrients that are needed by the mushrooms. And so back to my original question- show me the proof that states this to be true.

No need to get nasty and start ignoring me because I have healthy skepticism. There is nothing wrong with questioning a theory. Ignoring me shows your immaturity, but so be it.

Quote:

So the purpose of pasteurization
is not to get rid of all organisms, but to get rid of those that compete with the
mushrooms and to INCREASE the organisms that discourage diseases




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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: danielx]
    #11714657 - 12/24/09 11:19 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

you can't be serious...

since you so obviously didn't read I'll paste what it says so everyone can see word for word:

The greater production on pasteurized substrate is due to the organisms
left after pasteurization and because those organisms use the hemicellulose.
In using the hemicellulose, the beneficial organisms that are left after
pasteurization multiply. The organisms that have multiplied form a kind of
food that the mushrooms can use. That is, oyster mushrooms “eat” the
organisms that have grown on the hemicellulose that the mushrooms could
not use directly. There are indications that organisms, which are left after
pasteurization provide much of the nitrogen required by the mushrooms.
They may fix nitrogen from the atmosphere. So the purpose of pasteurization
is not to get rid of all organisms, but to get rid of those that compete with the
mushrooms and to INCREASE the organisms that discourage diseases,
consume hemicellulose, provide nitrogen, and become food for the
mushrooms.

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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: avorg]
    #11714687 - 12/24/09 11:25 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

RogerRabbit:

I can only imagine the amount of shit like this you must have caught over the years.

danielx:

Though some theories are debatable, some facts are not. When you have people with more experience, knowledge, and by the look of it patience, than you, you would be wise to heed their advice. At least do some minimal research before making sophomoric claims that could only be seen as belligerent after long enough. Yes this is a somewhat open forum, but when people act in such a way as you are, it often becomes closed(to them).  :grin:

If you actually read all that, than bravo. Let me guess, you're more enraged? That's not what you should be. You should be humbled, hopefully enough to JUST ADMIT YOU'RE WRONG - believe me you'll feel better, if not better liked.

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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: avorg]
    #11714696 - 12/24/09 11:27 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Can I get a witness?

:bow2:

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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: Citizen13]
    #11714784 - 12/24/09 11:53 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

avorg said:
The greater production on pasteurized substrate is due to the organisms left after pasteurization




Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
By 'cooking', we release more of what the mycelium needs. 




Did you even read anything I said?

The PDF file says that pasteurization leaves organisms which is good.

RR said that pasteurization releases what mycelium needs.

Going back to my original question, what does it release? How does it release it? All questions yet to be answered.

From what I understand, Pasteurization or no pasteurization the beneficial organisms will be there. But the point of pasturizing is to get the harmful organisms down, whilst leaving the beneficial ones; therefore, giving the edge to the beneficial bacteria.

but how does this add more of what mycelium needs? From my understanding your not adding anything, your just giving it the edge over contams. So I ask again for proof of added nutrients and things mycelium need through the process.


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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: danielx]
    #11714805 - 12/24/09 11:56 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

if RR told me to start pissing in my subs because its beneficial id ask for proof. I wouldn't just trust his judgment and start doing it. skepticism is all it is.


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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: christdriver]
    #11714870 - 12/25/09 12:07 AM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

christdriver said:
boil water right in pressure cooker, additives poured in and stirred, coir dropped in, lid on.




I did it just like that, with great results, for hundreds of tubs. If it works, don't change anything. :thumbup:


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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: avorg]
    #11714946 - 12/25/09 12:22 AM (15 years, 26 days ago)

I'll post it again for slow learners, with a paraphrase after.

Quote:

avorg said:
The greater production on pasteurized substrate is due to the organisms
left after pasteurization and because those organisms use the hemicellulose.
In using the hemicellulose, the beneficial organisms that are left after
pasteurization multiply. The organisms that have multiplied form a kind of
food that the mushrooms can use. That is, oyster mushrooms “eat” the
organisms that have grown on the hemicellulose that the mushrooms could
not use directly. There are indications that organisms, which are left after
pasteurization provide much of the nitrogen required by the mushrooms.
They may fix nitrogen from the atmosphere. So the purpose of pasteurization
is not to get rid of all organisms, but to get rid of those that compete with the
mushrooms and to INCREASE the organisms that discourage diseases,
consume hemicellulose, provide nitrogen, and become food for the
mushrooms.




So substrates contain hemicellulose, which beneficial organisms eat, but fungus cannot. The fungus in turn eats these organisms and their metabolites(nitrogen, etc.) while these organisms help fight off invading contaminates.

So what does pasteurizing release? While this may be a poorly worded statement on RR's part, it remains valid. Though pasteurizing itself does not "release" anything, it enables microorganisms to do so.

For your second argument, wouldn't the beneficial ones be there either way? Yes they would, but...

If it's not beneficial, than what is it class?

The correct answer is detrimental(or neutral for bonus points). So without pasteurizing you leave all of the above. Therefore you give detrimental ones an opportunity to overtake beneficial ones. In doing so they may cause several conditions. They may use all available nutrients, they may completely contaminate a substrate, or the real kicker. They may defeat all beneficial organisms, thereby not allowing the aforementioned processes to take place, and preventing the "release" of more readily available food for the fungus.

So in conclusion, when pasteurized a process takes place that allows the "release" of added food for mushrooms. Without pasteurization, this process might take place but is far less likely considering all competing organisms, and may not allow a substrate to reach it's full potential.

Good lord I feel like I wrote a thesis paper. While coir may be less likely to contam, it is not bullet proof. To those who have had success without pasteurizing I say kudos. But keep this in mind, no two grows are the same, and no two growers are the same. Not to mention growing conditions.

If there's nothing else than I believe this has been settled.

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Invisibledanielx
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: avorg]
    #11714955 - 12/25/09 12:24 AM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

avorg said:
So what does pasteurizing release? While this may be a poorly worded statement on RR's part, it remains valid. Though pasteurizing itself does not "release" anything, it enables microorganisms to do so




so its settled, pasteurization doesn't release anything. merry christmas :rastamon: :heart:


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Invisibleavorg
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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: Doc_T]
    #11714962 - 12/25/09 12:26 AM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Doc_T:

after reading your post it occurred to me that this may be why people find coir to be so contam proof. don't you think that method is in itself a way of pasteurizing the substrate?

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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: danielx]
    #11714969 - 12/25/09 12:27 AM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

danielx said:
so its settled, pasteurization doesn't release anything. merry christmas :rastamon: :heart:





are you trying to be funny, or just a dick?

merry christmas, to those who celebrate!

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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: danielx]
    #11714995 - 12/25/09 12:34 AM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

danielx said:
Quote:

avorg said:
So what does pasteurizing release? While this may be a poorly worded statement on RR's part, it remains valid. Though pasteurizing itself does not "release" anything, it enables microorganisms to do so




so its settled, pasteurization doesn't release anything. merry christmas :rastamon: :heart:





I get the feeling that was the last thing you read...

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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: avorg]
    #11714996 - 12/25/09 12:34 AM (15 years, 26 days ago)

nope, its christmas, and we can agree pasturizing doesn't release anything. smoking a bowl and about to go to bed.

:feelsgoodman:


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Re: Preparing Coir - Any reason??? [Re: danielx]
    #11715676 - 12/25/09 05:02 AM (15 years, 26 days ago)

I spent some time researching this online. I expected to find that heating cellulose helps break it down for digestion, but did not. It seems one would have to heat it up to about 320 degrees in an acid bath to have this effect.

I really couldn't find any support for this view.

The micro-organism argument seems to apply more to straw than coir. Lot's of peeps around here simply add boiling water to coir. Seems like sterilization to me.

It's possible sterilization / hydration is the only point to adding hot water to coir. Can anyone find any evidence that the heat is breaking anything down? Any evidence that pasteurization > sterilization for coir?

I know RR has stated that sterilizing straw frequently results in a bacterial bloom. Has anyone else experienced this?


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Let's settle it [Re: danielx]
    #11721159 - 12/26/09 12:28 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

I was going to suggest that you do some research and report back to us.  Then I got to the post in which you truncated a quotation mid-sentence because the latter half of the sentence damaged your position.

Clearly we can't trust the impartiality of your results.  So instead, I myself will do the research.

I don't have the capacity to do agar work, so instead I plan to divide a series of half-pint grain jars in half by weight.

I believe using grain to grain jars from the same transfer will give more even results than multispore, and splitting each jar in half should also help compensate for differences due to genetics.

Half of each jar will be mixed with hydrated coir, half with pasteurized coir, in identical containers.  These will be fruited uncased in the same terrarium(s).  I'm thinking 4 jars = 8 small substrates. They will be placed alternatingly in every stage to ensure even distribution of factors (position on shelf, distance from light, etc.)

Right now I don't have anything handy for doing transfers from, so it's not going to happen very quickly.  I'm going to have to start from MS, grow that out, transfer, grow, then divide and spawn.

My pasteurization method is a large electric frying pan turned down low, with an instant-read thermometer inserted through the lid.  150 degrees for anywhere from 2 to 6 hours depending how long I forget about it for.

I realize this isn't going to satisfy anyone who's more bent on being right than finding out how to grow more and better mushrooms, but I'm sure somebody can benefit from it.

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Invisibleanonjon
Partially Right

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
Re: Let's settle it [Re: PocketRevolution]
    #11721483 - 12/26/09 01:53 PM (15 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

PocketRevolution said:

Clearly we can't trust the impartiality of your results.  So instead, I myself will do the research.

I don't have the capacity to do agar work, so instead I plan to divide a series of half-pint grain jars in half by weight.






You're right that grain to grain will accomplish what you want, but I don't get saying that don't have the capacity to do agar work. There's so many recipes for agar that can be attained at the grocery store and quarter pint jars make great agar plates:



--------------------
The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


:moon:  :moon:  :moon:  :moon:    :moon:

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