|
Statisticons_win
Stranger
Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 2,372
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
|
Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property
#11693114 - 12/21/09 03:36 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
From the Economist, dated De 12th-18th, a nation of Amerindians in the Nass Valley in British Columbia toy with private property for the first time in hopes it will raise the living standard.
http://www.economist.com/world/americas/displaystory.cfm?story_id=15066090
It should be interesting to see how this develops. Let's wish them luck.
--------------------
Edited by Statisticons_win (12/21/09 03:38 PM)
|
memes
Blessed
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: Statisticons_win]
#11693530 - 12/21/09 04:37 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I'd expect marked increases in land productivity and personal wealth. They did this expirament before, when mercantalism ended in Britain and France. IT brought about the industrial revolution and spawned nearly every technological advancement that has since raised billions of people from below the poverty line into the middle class
|
Statisticons_win
Stranger
Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 2,372
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: memes]
#11699013 - 12/22/09 01:28 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
yeah, I know.
This is here and now, and that is why it excites me. It may provide us with irrefutable evidence, again, that capitalism and it's forces are win.
--------------------
|
llama farmer
Mushroom Newb
Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 133
Loc: Aus
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: Statisticons_win]
#11710354 - 12/24/09 04:25 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
meams said: I'd expect marked increases in land productivity and personal wealth. They did this expirament before, when mercantalism ended in Britain and France. IT brought about the industrial revolution and spawned nearly every technological advancement that has since raised billions of people from below the poverty line into the middle class
The majority of the world were much better off before the industrial revolution.
Quote:
Statisticons_win said: yeah, I know.
This is here and now, and that is why it excites me. It may provide us with irrefutable evidence, again, that capitalism and it's forces are win.
Except for the 80% of the world where it isn't.
-------------------- The labourer who tends a garden is perhaps in a truer sense its owner than the listless voluptuary that enjoys its fruits
|
memes
Blessed
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: llama farmer]
#11710993 - 12/24/09 09:44 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
llama farmer said: The majority of the world were much better off before the industrial revolution.
Thanks for saving me time by putting that first. After I read that I didnt have to even bother reading the rest of what you said.
|
Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 4 months, 29 days
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: llama farmer]
#11711171 - 12/24/09 10:36 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The majority of the world were much better off before the industrial revolution.
Source?
Also, by what criteria do you use to determine this?
|
llama farmer
Mushroom Newb
Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 133
Loc: Aus
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: memes]
#11711173 - 12/24/09 10:36 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
meams said:
Quote:
llama farmer said: The majority of the world were much better off before the industrial revolution.
Thanks for saving me time by putting that first. After I read that I didnt have to even bother reading the rest of what you said.
Maybe you are interpreting the majority of the world as Western Europe? A significant portion of the world in terms of actual poverty were doing a lot better than today. Things weren't great, like medicine, but comparatively there are plenty of societies that were better off - that continent with the horn shape is one that comes to mind.
-------------------- The labourer who tends a garden is perhaps in a truer sense its owner than the listless voluptuary that enjoys its fruits
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: llama farmer]
#11711459 - 12/24/09 11:40 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
"You may saaaaay I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one". http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/kschlichter/2009/10/27/the-worst-song-of-all-time-imagine/
Quote:
What was Phil Spector, who produced this mess, thinking? Right now, he ought to be thinking that “Imagine” was the second biggest mistake of his life.
And the lyrics – give me a break. Never have so many fawned so shamelessly over such utter nonsense.
The first lines are: “Imagine there’s no heaven/it’s easy if you try.” No, it isn’t, because if there’s no heaven then there’s no hell, and we know that there’s a hell because when this song is playing we’re in it.
And how about “Imagine all the people/Living for today?” Yeah, he’s put his finger on our problem – too many people planning ahead and preparing for the future. This is the kind of powerful, incisive reasoning that led a guy who could take his pick of pretty much any woman in the world to shack up with Yoko Ono. Let me put it another way for emphasis – this guy chose to see Yoko Ono naked. Many times. The only response to someone with that kind of judgment is to listen carefully to what he says and then do the exact opposite.
There’s also the gratuitous commie babbling: “Imagine no possessions/I wonder if you can/No need for greed or hunger/A brotherhood of man/Imagine all the people/Sharing all the world.” To quote a better song by the infinitely more talented Frank Zappa, a man with an admirable lack of patience for such treacle, gag me with a spoon.
I’m not sure of the Lennon timeline, but didn’t he write this nonsense about the same time he ditched England because of the tax bite he was taking to help pay for its socialist welfare state? Sure, depriving a rapacious lefty government of revenue by moving to someplace with a more sensible tax rate is clearly the morally correct thing to do, but isn’t the transparent hypocrisy of this poser a bit much to stomach?
And if all that’s not insipid enough, we also get: “You may say that I’m a dreamer/But I’m not the only one.” Oh, please.
The most galling thing about “Imagine” is how it urges the listener to assume the mantle of that “dreamer,” thereby joining the ranks of the free spirits, bohemians and other assorted loafers, chislers and social parasites who are only too happy to belly up to the table that is our society but who are nowhere to be found when the check arrives:
“Sorry, I can’t be bothered to work to build something or to fight to defend anything – you see, I’m a dreamer, so you just let me know when you’ve gotten everything ready for me to enjoy. Until then, I’ll be here relaxing on my parents’ sofa, pretending to read Gravity’s Rainbow. ”
Aside from the tax evasion issue the pompous fraud dealt himself he was also living in one of the most expensive buildings in one of the most expensive neighborhoods in the world.
--------------------
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: Statisticons_win]
#11711826 - 12/24/09 12:46 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/04/22 07:47 PM)
|
GI_Luvmoney
Vote Republican!
Registered: 05/10/09
Posts: 939
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#11712198 - 12/24/09 01:55 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Chemical Lobotamy, capitalism has been very very good to me. Native Americans have proven to be some of the most racist people in the world. They stole land from each other for 10,000 years, many of them have killed white people just because they were white, they practiced cannibalism and slavery and genocide and even shrink heads to this day.
|
memes
Blessed
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: llama farmer]
#11712465 - 12/24/09 02:44 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
llama farmer said: Maybe you are interpreting the majority of the world as Western Europe? A significant portion of the world in terms of actual poverty were doing a lot better than today. Things weren't great, like medicine, but comparatively there are plenty of societies that were better off - that continent with the horn shape is one that comes to mind.
You said the majority of the world was better off before the industrial revolution.
I'm wondering how countless new manufacturing processes that allowed durable goods to be produced en masse and for very little money made a majority of the world worse off (which is what your statement is implying?).
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: memes]
#11712542 - 12/24/09 02:59 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Don't mind him. He thinks it is noble to live a brutish life and die young. Because you haven't hurt Gaia.
Nobody was better off before the Industrial Revolution.
--------------------
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: GI_Luvmoney]
#11712836 - 12/24/09 03:46 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/04/22 07:48 PM)
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#11712863 - 12/24/09 03:51 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Why do you assume that because some tribes were welcoming all tribes were welcoming? Not all NAs were Pueblos. Some were vicious, opportunistic killers and slave mongers.
Romanticizing a unitary Native American ethos is, frankly, ignorant. They were quite diverse.
--------------------
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: zappaisgod]
#11713812 - 12/24/09 07:28 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/04/22 07:48 PM)
|
moeshroom
golden student
Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 406
Loc:
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: zappaisgod]
#11733723 - 12/28/09 07:31 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
GI_Luvmoney said: Chemical Lobotamy, capitalism has been very very good to me. Native Americans have proven to be some of the most racist people in the world. They stole land from each other for 10,000 years, many of them have killed white people just because they were white, they practiced cannibalism and slavery and genocide and even shrink heads to this day.
I'm sure that you have extensively studied Native American history, & are not just basing the above statements on your racism & bigotry.
Two things on the "barbarity" of Native peoples. While some did exist as it does among all cultures, most allegations by the early Europeans were outright lies to justify colonial expansion, as Bartolome de las Casas acknowledged, & as can be seen by racist depictions prevalent throughout American culture for most of its history. Second, killing between Native people was on a scale less than Europe & Asia throughout history. Less population density & vast resource-rich land were no doubt a contributing factor, but it was not on as great a scale nonetheless.
Killing white people simply for being white? Read the writings of Columbus himself on how the Natives treated his party on Hispaniola. Read writings by some of the honest pilgrims about their early relations with the Natives. Any killing of white people by Natives was in response to an ongoing genocide against them, for which the perpetrators of the genocide & colonial expansion bear ultimate responsibility.
Why do you assume that because some tribes were welcoming all tribes were welcoming? Not all NAs were Pueblos. Some were vicious, opportunistic killers and slave mongers.
Romanticizing a unitary Native American ethos is, frankly, ignorant. They were quite diverse.
this is how dialog works in threaded forums, ya old stick in the mud.
not
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context
--------------------
|
jimbotron
Patty-Cake Enthusiast
Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 2,324
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: moeshroom]
#11737856 - 12/29/09 02:42 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I find it hilarious how people think there's this eternal dichotomy between capitalism and communism. I guess history started a couple hundreds years ago and humanity was in the shitter up until then because capitalism didn't really exist.
For example, medieval peasants worked about 100 days a year. Fast forward to the industrial revolution, you have 8-year-olds working 16 hours a day 7 days a week. According to free marketeers, they are more productive and therefore happier.
Something doesn't add up here.
-------------------- BEST TEAM IN THE UNIVERSE
|
memes
Blessed
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: jimbotron]
#11738032 - 12/29/09 03:26 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
jimbotron said: For example, medieval peasants worked about 100 days a year. Fast forward to the industrial revolution, you have 8-year-olds working 16 hours a day 7 days a week. According to free marketeers, they are more productive and therefore happier.
Something doesn't add up here.
Go read the book "Pillars of the EartH"
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: jimbotron]
#11738742 - 12/29/09 05:48 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Medieval peasants worked 100 days a year? I suspect that the number is a lot closer to 365. Except in a leap year, when it is probably closer to 366.
--------------------
|
jimbotron
Patty-Cake Enthusiast
Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 2,324
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: zappaisgod]
#11740726 - 12/30/09 12:17 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Medieval peasants worked 100 days a year? I suspect that the number is a lot closer to 365. Except in a leap year, when it is probably closer to 366.
Not at all. In England, the very most burdened serfs owed the lord 50-60 days of work a year. Bear in mind crops weren't grown for most of the year. What's the figure these days on how long you have to work till 'tax freedom'? April 13? 102 days into the year?
'Course that isn't necessarily an argument against capitalism per se. But it's foolish to claim that everyone's lives have gotten better since the industrial revolution and the notion of "profit". Communitarian life wasn't so bad, despite the popular misconception that it entailed backbreaking labor day in day out all year long. (And modern third world life really sucks.)
But don't listen to me.
Listen to Terry Jones. I fucking love this series.
http://www.videosift.com/video/Terry-Jone-s-Medieval-Lives-1-The-Peasant
Edited by jimbotron (12/30/09 12:45 AM)
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: jimbotron]
#11741753 - 12/30/09 10:15 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
jimbotron said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Medieval peasants worked 100 days a year? I suspect that the number is a lot closer to 365. Except in a leap year, when it is probably closer to 366.
Not at all. In England, the very most burdened serfs owed the lord 50-60 days of work a year. Bear in mind crops weren't grown for most of the year. What's the figure these days on how long you have to work till 'tax freedom'? April 13? 102 days into the year?
Yeah. And if they didn't work the other days they got what to eat? And wear? Or anything else? Do you think growing crops was the only thing they had to do to survive? Unbelievable the bullshit children will absorb without examination.
Tax freedom day? I dunno. For about half the population it comes in January. Do you work 7 days a week?Quote:
'Course that isn't necessarily an argument against capitalism per se. But it's foolish to claim that everyone's lives have gotten better since the industrial revolution and the notion of "profit". Communitarian life wasn't so bad, despite the popular misconception that it entailed backbreaking labor day in day out all year long. (And modern third world life really sucks.)
I have one word for the glories of the industrial revolution. Refrigerators. Ponder on that and all it means.
Third world life does suck. But not as much as it used to suck before the industrial revolution. It was even worse then.Quote:
But don't listen to me.
Listen to Terry Jones. I fucking love this series.
http://www.videosift.com/video/Terry-Jone-s-Medieval-Lives-1-The-Peasant
No. I will never listen to any video more than 1 minute long. Ever.
--------------------
|
flangenips
Batshitinsanse
Registered: 01/20/08
Posts: 1,520
Loc: aotearoa
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: zappaisgod]
#11754056 - 01/02/10 04:08 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Refrigerators are fucking awesome.
-------------------- All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce
|
Noetical
Flip Horrorshow
Registered: 11/28/04
Posts: 9,230
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: Statisticons_win]
#11757578 - 01/03/10 07:36 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Lets get back on topic -
I watched a feature on the Nisga over the holidays on CBC that included interviews with a number of band members.
After viewing said feature lets just say that I think the Nisga people have a very different concept of wealth creation than The Economist.
The proponents of lifting the property ownership restrictions pushed the platform on the idea that you as a home owner can now go to the bank and use your given (see free - zero cost) home as collateral for what residents are being led to believe (and convincing themselves) are free $$$ from a bank.
In reality it's just a twisted attempt to monetize the non money subsidies and aid provided under the Indian Act (see free housing).
There are no grand ideals of wealth creation or building a better future for the band just greed at play under the false guise of free money.
This will not end well and will turn very ugly politically when the banks begin to lay claim to the 'collateral'.
|
Noetical
Flip Horrorshow
Registered: 11/28/04
Posts: 9,230
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: Noetical]
#11757580 - 01/03/10 07:38 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
You know its a shame how quickly this topic degenerated....
|
memes
Blessed
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: Noetical]
#11757681 - 01/03/10 08:27 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
By allowing people to 'own' their homes, it allows the individuals to borrow against the value of their house, thus allowing them to take out a loan (now that they have collateral). The loan will then allow them to invest in projects that will either improve their quality of life at home, or their abilityt o generate income via whatever job they may have.
This inability to access capital is exactly what holds most 3rd world nations down in the doldrums. Hernando DeSoto provides an excellent (and much more detailed) description in "The Mystery of Capital"
Def a good read.
|
Noetical
Flip Horrorshow
Registered: 11/28/04
Posts: 9,230
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: memes]
#11757977 - 01/03/10 09:37 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Thanks for suggestion, will check it out.
Very well aware (and agree with you) on the idealized intention of private property in Nisga. It should be a great means to capital.
I just feel there are alot of factors here that are going to make this potentially 'good' wealth generating debt 'bad' debt.
I guess am saying that the Economist didn't grasp the whole picture of this story.
The biggest thing being how huge the welfare aspect of the Canadian Indian Act truly is.
More to follow.. I'm glad you're still following because there are a couple things I want to bring up that I'd appreciate an economists bent on
|
memes
Blessed
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: Noetical]
#11758339 - 01/03/10 11:06 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Noetical said: I just feel there are alot of factors here that are going to make this potentially 'good' wealth generating debt 'bad' debt.
Please explain a little further.
Quote:
I guess am saying that the Economist didn't grasp the whole picture of this story.
The biggest thing being how huge the welfare aspect of the Canadian Indian Act truly is.
More to follow.. I'm glad you're still following because there are a couple things I want to bring up that I'd appreciate an economists bent on
Just so you know, i'm not really following this specific story very closely, and I don't know jack shit about the canadian indian act. Anything i've said in this thread has been general economnic theory - for the most part - and I've simply applied it to this situation if it seemed as though it was applicable.
If you've got some shit you wanna talk about and get my perspective on, by all means go ahead and post it up. But I'm not guarenteeing that (a)i'll know the answer, or (b)i'll want to take the time to find the answer. However, I do guarentee that if i know anything about it - i'll share my knowledge.
|
Statisticons_win
Stranger
Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 2,372
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
|
Re: Case study in Capitalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with prope [Re: memes]
#11763414 - 01/04/10 06:56 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
meams, it wasn't a very in depth article, and they suggested the same benefits of asset ownership as you did.
Noetical may very well be right in his assumption that invariable some people are going to create debt for themselves and fail to utilize it successfully, but some people will use that debt to propel themselves into entrepreneurial success.
The Economist has a firm grasp of it I am sure, after all they have been publishing articles on economics for nigh on a hundred years.
--------------------
|
memes
Blessed
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
|
Re: Case study in Capitalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with prope [Re: Statisticons_win]
#11763619 - 01/04/10 08:18 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
So he was just saying that some people might use this private ownership to commit the same type of ill-guided borrowing that led to our current mess?
OF coures they will! They are human, after all. It is in our nature to fuck our own shit up.
|
Noetical
Flip Horrorshow
Registered: 11/28/04
Posts: 9,230
|
Re: Case study in Capitalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with prope [Re: memes]
#11765189 - 01/04/10 02:09 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
No - What I'm trying to get at is very specific to this situation - and I am not doing a good job or finding the time to do it well enough.
Coles Notes:
A few of the externalities I see it at play here are:
Government Welfare being the primary source of income for this community The tax free status all first nations people enjoy on a First Nations Reservation The poverty of said reservations The 'property' being an unearned/gifted asset The implicit promise of the Canadian Government to come to the relief of any fiscal hardship befalling the band (as established by past treaty arbitrations) Nisga being a very remote community with poor infrastructure and little commerce The first hand opinions of the Nisga people - http://www.cbc.ca/video/watch/News/Canada/ID=1372544341
Because of these factors (amongst others) I see very little opportunity for wealth creation in that environment and equally as important I see an unwilling mentality grown under the nations welfare blanket.
***
And no Statisticons, The Economist's sterling reputation does not exempt them from the occasional oversight or poorly written artical. I've been a subscriber for the last 4 yrs, and though rare, I have shaken my head from time to time after a poor piece.
|
Noetical
Flip Horrorshow
Registered: 11/28/04
Posts: 9,230
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: Statisticons_win]
#11765234 - 01/04/10 02:14 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Statisticons_win said: This is here and now, and that is why it excites me. It may provide us with irrefutable evidence, again, that capitalism and it's forces are win.
I guess what I'm saying is this won't be your champion more likely your pariah - so don't hold out hope.
(and this is coming from a proponent of the free market)
|
memes
Blessed
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: Noetical]
#11768919 - 01/05/10 07:55 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
.
Edited by memes (10/02/12 06:28 PM)
|
Noetical
Flip Horrorshow
Registered: 11/28/04
Posts: 9,230
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: memes]
#11769011 - 01/05/10 08:32 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Moral Hazard!
Gawd dammit that was on the tip of my tounge for the last few days (but its been ages since I've taken an Econ class)
Thanks!
I do agree that property rights are key to alleviating the poverty of many of these reservations, but I've always felt they've had to be done in tandem (slowly) with an unwinding of the social net in a manner that transfers the value of cash subsidies into programs that target human capital and small business.
A huge problem though is that if you take the social net away from these reserves there is next to nothing left to keep anyone there...
Many steps in the inbetween...
I've always been fascinated by the economic interworkings of Canadian Indian Reservations - I think they would make one hell of a case studie.
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#11772004 - 01/05/10 06:21 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/04/22 07:49 PM)
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#11772109 - 01/05/10 06:34 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: The model of success for Native people going foreword, combining modern methods of production with (a movement towards) communal distribution of wealth & thus opportunity for all, is exemplified in the ongoing revolutionary abandoned struggle in Bolivia Soviet Russia.
Fixed.
--------------------
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: zappaisgod]
#11772130 - 01/05/10 06:37 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Also Venezuela, with electricity rationing (!?) and Cuba, with life of any kind rationing.
--------------------
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: zappaisgod]
#11778374 - 01/06/10 05:34 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/04/22 07:50 PM)
|
Statisticons_win
Stranger
Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 2,372
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#11778510 - 01/06/10 05:55 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
The Latinobarómetro poll A slow maturing of democracy
Dec 10th 2009 From The Economist print edition More Latin Americans now trust the government than the army
DESPITE the recession which rippled across the region over the past year, Latin Americans are more supportive of— and satisfied with—their democracies and their governments. More of them favour the market economy, and most take a dim view of Hugo Chávez, Venezuela’s radical leftist president. Those are among the findings of the latest Latinobarómetro poll taken in 18 countries across the region and published exclusively by The Economist. Because the poll has been taken regularly since 1995, it tracks changes in attitudes across the region.
This year’s poll was taken in late September and October, when many countries in the region were starting to pull out of the downturn. Latin Americans felt the recession, but in most places only moderately. Respondents describing the economic situation as “bad” or “very bad” increased from 35% last year to 40% this year, while those calling it “good” or “very good” fell to 43% from 47%. Unemployment edged ahead of crime as respondents’ main concern, as it was in all the previous polls except last year’s (though in seven countries crime remains the number one worry).
Yet this did little to diminish Latin Americans’ increasingly sunny mood. Support for democracy is at its highest level since the late 1990s, up 11 points from its trough in 2001. A clear majority across the region are now committed democrats (see table 1 and chart 2). Elections that ushered new presidents into office brought the customary boost in support for democracy in El Salvador and Panama.
In Honduras so, seemingly, did the coup in June against Manuel Zelaya, the elected president. Among respondents in that country, 58% disapproved of the coup; in the region as a whole, only 24% of respondents approved of it. (But 61% of those polled in Brazil, 58% in Mexico and 42% in the region agreed that the army should remove a president if he violates the constitution, as the coup leaders in Honduras claimed of Mr Zelaya.) Meanwhile, there were big falls in support for democracy in Colombia and Ecuador.
Even more strikingly, satisfaction with the working of democracy has increased sharply, to its highest level since the polls began (chart 3). Trust in democracy’s basic institutions is also growing steadily, albeit from low levels (chart 4). Those saying that democracy cannot exist without political parties have increased steadily, to 60% from 49% in 2001, when amid economic collapse protesting Argentinians shouted at their politicians, “Que se vayan todos” (“kick them all out”). For the first time since Latinobarómetro began polling, more respondents now approve of their governments than trust the armed forces—a milestone in a region with a long history of military interventions in politics.
All of this is in marked contrast to the last recession in the region in 2001-02, which undermined Latin Americans’ faith in democracy. One difference this time is that many do not seem to blame their governments for the downturn. Another is the sense of greater well-being generated by five years of faster economic growth until 2008 and, in many countries, more effective social policies and some income redistribution. The fact that democracy has brought political change, allowing the left to come to power in many countries for example, also has an impact.
All this seems to point to a slow maturing of democracy in Latin America. “There’s an important increase in the legitimacy of governments, which is good for democracy,” says Marta Lagos, Latinobarómetro’s director, though she cautions that it is also providing fuel for the spreading habit of presidents seeking re-election.
Greater faith in democracy has gone hand-in-hand with more support for the market economy—despite the financial crisis (chart 5). But there is disenchantment with markets in Colombia, even though the country all but escaped recession. That may be because of the collapse of several big pyramid-savings schemes, or because unemployment has risen sharply. One in three of those polled across the region now say that privatisations were beneficial for their country, up from 22% in 2003.
There are hints, too, of greater social liberalism. Those who say they would not like to have homosexuals as neighbours have fallen from 59% in 1998 to 29% this year. On the other hand, 36% say that women should stay at home, rather than go out to work, the same number as in 1997. A similar proportion say that men make better political leaders than women.
The upbeat mood is particularly striking in Brazil and Chile, where two-thirds of respondents said their country was progressing (Panamanians and Uruguayans were not far behind). Even the notoriously curmudgeonly Peruvians have warmed a bit to democracy. But Mexicans are gloomier, unsurprisingly given that the economy shrank by 10.1% in the year to June. So in some ways are Argentinians: not only do only 25% approve of their government, only 4% of those polled thought the distribution of income was fair and only 13% think any progress has been made over the past two years in reducing corruption (compared with a regional average of 39%).
The poll offers a warning to Mr Chávez. Though 45% of Venezuelan respondents still support his government, that is down from 65% in 2006. And although he has nationalised many businesses, 81% of them say that private enterprise is indispensable for economic development, a big increase on previous years. Support for the market economy among Venezuelan respondents has also surged.
The poll also suggests that Mr Chávez’s image in the region is much less favourable than that of many other leaders, and especially than that of Barack Obama (chart 6). The advent of Mr Obama has boosted his country’s standing in the region: 74% of respondents had a favourable opinion of the United States, up from 58% last year and the highest figure since the polls began. Nevertheless, more respondents now see Brazil as the most influential country in the region, ahead of the United States and Venezuela. But the influence of the United States is ranked higher than Brazil’s in the northern part of the region.
--------------------
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: Statisticons_win]
#11778874 - 01/06/10 06:43 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
http://blogs.investors.com/capitalhill/index.php/home/35-politics/825-chile-officially-exits-the-third-world
Quote:
Chile will join the Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development later this month, the rich-nation club’s president said Wednesday. It’s one hell of a proud moment for Chile.
What happened? Call it the glory of free trade, which Chile does better than any other country. No matter which government was in power, the nation has always loved free trade. It has signed dozens of treaties with any nation that asks, and the results speak for themselves. It’s very big news for Chile (link in Spanish).
Chile also has run sound macroeconomic policies, keeping spending and inflation under control.
In 1985, Chile averaged about $1,300 GDP per capita on a purchasing-power basis, according to the CIA Factbook. Today it’s $15,000.
First Latin American nation to shed itself of 3rd world status. Meanwhile Venezuela, with massive oil wealth, marches backwards. I wonder why.
--------------------
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: Statisticons_win]
#11785015 - 01/07/10 05:13 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/04/22 08:00 PM)
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#11785418 - 01/07/10 06:18 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
http://www.ifj.org/en/articles/ifj-says-chavez-war-on-media-is-disastrous-for-democracy-in-venezuela
Quote:
"These are dangerous days for journalism in Venezuela," he said. "The government must change course, if not it will be a disaster for democracy in Venezuela." He said numerous physical attacks on reporters, closures of media, targeted court actions and denial of media access to official information had created a dangerous climate for journalists who will be under further pressures in the run-up to national elections next year.
White highlighted the targeting of Globovision, a televisión network facing the same fate as the independent network Radio Television Caracas which was forced to close its terrestrial operations two years ago. Earlier this year more than 30 radio stations were closed and a further 200 stations are under threat of closure.
Your hero is a thug.
--------------------
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: zappaisgod]
#11785509 - 01/07/10 06:31 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/04/22 08:01 PM)
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#11785554 - 01/07/10 06:40 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
So they like thugs in Venezuela. Who knew? By the way, how is anybody going to run against him when A. The oppposition keeps getting thrown in prison and B. Adversarial press keeps getting shut down. You really are making a clown of yourself.
--------------------
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: zappaisgod]
#11786200 - 01/07/10 08:25 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/04/22 08:01 PM)
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#11786243 - 01/07/10 08:31 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Throwing the opposition in jail and shutting down media outlets is not exactly a sign of a popular government, is it Komrade?
--------------------
|
Statisticons_win
Stranger
Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 2,372
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with prope [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#11789056 - 01/08/10 11:37 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: Pages 17, 19, 20, 37, etc. are what I was referring to. I initially read it from a pro-Bolivarian revolution website, but went through it myself to cite some of the pages from the report directly. I'm sure there were a few more I meant to cite (that I had read on the website), but I didn't feel like going through the rest of the report.
http://www.der.oas.org/INFORME%20LB%202007.pdf
i will concede that the report is a bit old, & the approval rating for the current government has dropped from about 70% in the summer of '08 to just over 60% within the last month or two, with the global recession (I would imagine that this has caused a drop of approval rating for governments can be seen around the world)... so in the latest report the numbers almost certainly aren't as high... but the ~60% approval rating remains, & re-election is coming up this year, & he will very likely win.
But even a third pres. election victory (in addition to surviving the recall vote that was actually at a worse time for the country economically due to a strike by the private oil company that has since been nationalized) will not convince his detractors that he has the support of the majority of voters... so they will continue to make up things.
Quote:
The Economist said:
The poll offers a warning to Mr Chávez. Though 45% of Venezuelan respondents still support his government, that is down from 65% in 2006. And although he has nationalised many businesses, 81% of them say that private enterprise is indispensable for economic development, a big increase on previous years. Support for the market economy among Venezuelan respondents has also surged.
This excerpt from my previous post begs to differ.
--------------------
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with prope [Re: Statisticons_win]
#11797941 - 01/09/10 06:39 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/04/22 08:02 PM)
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with prope [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#11797966 - 01/09/10 06:45 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I won't be surprised if he wins. He has jailed many of his serious opponents and shut down dissenting media outlets as treasonous. Stalin never lost an election.
--------------------
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with prope [Re: zappaisgod]
#11802443 - 01/10/10 02:27 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/04/22 08:03 PM)
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with prope [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#11802629 - 01/10/10 03:01 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
His approval is plummeting. That's why he's jailing opponents and shutting down media.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN096521320100109
Quote:
However, Chavez risks taking a blow to his popularity ratings, which are about 50 percent, as prices for many products inevitably will rise in the country of 28 million people, which relies on imports for much of its consumption.
Finance Minister Ali Rodriguez said the devaluation will add 3 percent to 5 percent to inflation, already the highest in the Americas at 25 percent last year.
"The popularity of the government is obviously going to be sharply and negatively affected," said economist Pedro Palma. "The inflationary impact of the measure diminishes the real income of people. People can consume less."
Quote:
It devalues the currency to 4.3 and 2.6 against the dollar, from a rate of 2.15 per dollar in place since 2005, giving the better rate for basic goods in an attempt to limit the impact of the measure on consumer prices.
The opposition seized on fears that prices for imported goods will double as shoppers formed lines of more than a hundred people outside some stores in the capital Caracas.
"It was a Black Friday, tinted red," said sales executive Diana Sevillana in reference to the crimson color of Chavez's socialist party. She stood in a line of 30 people outside an electrical goods store in a middle class neighborhood. .....
"By establishing the exchange rate at 4.3 bolivars per dollar, the quality of life for Venezuelans is automatically devalued since we now have half the money we had before," said Caracas Mayor Antonio Ledezma, a Chavez opponent.
This is getting more and more fun. Meanwhile, in Chile........ Well, you must know all about this: http://voices.kansascity.com/node/7131
Quote:
Chile: No longer a Third World country
By E. Thomas McClanahan, Kansas City Star Editorial Page columnist Chile has been formally invited to join the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development, the club of "rich" countries. Chile is the only Latin American country that can make such a claim. Key factor: Its decision to adopt free trade. That wasn't the only cause, but Chile's trade policy played a big role. It's a reminder that in a global economy, if a country is poor, it's likely poor not because of geography (Chile's geolocation isn't exactly ideal) or -- the traditional excuse -- lack of natural resources. No, most poor countries are poor by policy, they're poor because of counterproductive laws that undermine property rights and impede the working of markets.
Yum yum.
--------------------
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with prope [Re: zappaisgod]
#11804401 - 01/10/10 07:39 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/04/22 08:05 PM)
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with prope [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#11806479 - 01/11/10 05:58 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: Not respecting private property rights enough is the reason for widespread poverty? That's turning the history of the New World on its head. Traditionally in much of Latin America, virtually all of the wealth (which includes productive land in addition to industries) was in the hands of a small minority, usually inherited for generations, who hoarded it while the masses saw nothing & lived in poverty.
Not just that but also market impediments as well.
Quote:
No, most poor countries are poor by policy, they're poor because of counterproductive laws that undermine property rights and impede the working of markets.
And of course there is the glorious corruption of their governments, which knows no left or right.Quote:
You've derailed this thread enough, which was supposed to be about the best way forward for Native people. That way is exemplified in Bolivia, where the hemisphere's only indigenous president recently won re-election by a margin of of about 63% to 23%.
Yes, he won the election. How's that working out? And what does that have to do with the OP? Nothing.Quote:
Here are the experiences of those everyday people...long marginalized by societies built on "private property"... who supported him:
http://www.counterpunch.org/dangl12082009.html
How sweet. Counterpunch found some street people who love him. Now that's some quality evidence right there. Quote:
For the same reasons & the same experiences in correcting past injustices & providing leadership for a brighter tomorrow, Chavez will also win re-election later this year, as the AP mock election poll showed (about 60% to a little under 30% for the main opponent.)
You mean from te article you linked which ends with this:
Quote:
IVAD, AP, and other polls show that the electorate and people tighten their ranks and recoil in contempt from these counter-revolutionaries: namely, imperialists, the Venezuelan bourgeoisie, and working class reactionaries.
You got some funny sources. Counterpunch and OEN. Nice.
--------------------
|
Noetical
Flip Horrorshow
Registered: 11/28/04
Posts: 9,230
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with prope [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#11806640 - 01/11/10 07:48 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: You've derailed this thread enough, which was supposed to be about the best way forward for Native people. That way is exemplified in Bolivia, where the hemisphere's only indigenous president recently won re-election by a margin of of about 63% to 23%.
Actually this thread was about the Nisga First Nations in British Columbia, Canada
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with prope [Re: Noetical]
#11816036 - 01/12/10 03:52 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/04/22 08:07 PM)
|
Hashishin13
Registered: 10/10/09
Posts: 315
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#11862940 - 01/19/10 10:26 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
relatively communal at a fundamental level, as this was often consistent with the nature-oriented spirituality practiced.
I'm tired of this misconception that the native peoples of North America were somehow "in-tune" with nature and didn't fuck it up in any way.
Most of the large mammals of North America suddenly disappear from the fossil record right after the expansion into North America by the Asians now known as the Amerindians or First Nations.
I blame 100% of the problems of the modern world on empire and religion.
-------------------- It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it. -George Washington
|
kadakuda
The Great"Green".......East
Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 7,048
Loc: Asia
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: Hashishin13]
#11890712 - 01/24/10 11:43 AM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
this is great news.
Quote:
Their new law allows Nisga’a to obtain freehold title to their homes, and to mortgage, transfer, lease or sell these to anyone, including outsiders. In the future, Mr McKay says, the law might be extended to commercial or industrial property.
by the way, for the canadians, freehold=fee simple.
i am not exactly sure how it works for this band, it sounds like they actually OWN the land....in BC people can only hold rights to the land (titles). vancouver island for example has mineral rights owned by E&N and timber rights owned by various companies.....which basically means should they decide they can cut the trees and dig a mine in your land. plus your not the owner of the land, you just hold the title which can be changed by the gov anytime.
what i find cool about this above situation is that it seems they actually OWN the land...a very rare thing in bc....or am i reading that wrong?
-------------------- The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: Hashishin13]
#11890731 - 01/24/10 11:48 AM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/04/22 08:07 PM)
|
Hashishin13
Registered: 10/10/09
Posts: 315
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#11895970 - 01/25/10 12:50 AM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Yea but I still think they killed off all the really big mammals. They all died off when they came over, it might have been climate but its too coincidental. I kinda think that the northern population might have learned from this and became eco friendly by the time the Europeans arrived.
This shouldn't be read as hating on natives, just get real we are all people.
-------------------- It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it. -George Washington
|
Noetical
Flip Horrorshow
Registered: 11/28/04
Posts: 9,230
|
Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: Statisticons_win]
#12566846 - 05/15/10 11:02 AM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
|
|