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OfflineStatisticons_win
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Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property
    #11693114 - 12/21/09 03:36 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

From the Economist, dated De 12th-18th, a nation of Amerindians in the Nass Valley in British Columbia toy with private property for the first time in hopes it will raise the living standard.

http://www.economist.com/world/americas/displaystory.cfm?story_id=15066090

It should be interesting to see how this develops.  Let's wish them luck.


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Edited by Statisticons_win (12/21/09 03:38 PM)

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Invisiblememes
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Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: Statisticons_win]
    #11693530 - 12/21/09 04:37 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I'd expect marked increases in land productivity and personal wealth.  They did this expirament before, when mercantalism ended in Britain and France.  IT brought about the industrial revolution and spawned nearly every technological advancement that has since raised billions of people from below the poverty line into the middle class

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OfflineStatisticons_win
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Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: memes]
    #11699013 - 12/22/09 01:28 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

yeah, I know.

This is here and now, and that is why it excites me. It may provide us with irrefutable evidence, again, that capitalism and it's forces are win.


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Offlinellama farmer
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Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: Statisticons_win]
    #11710354 - 12/24/09 04:25 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
I'd expect marked increases in land productivity and personal wealth.  They did this expirament before, when mercantalism ended in Britain and France.  IT brought about the industrial revolution and spawned nearly every technological advancement that has since raised billions of people from below the poverty line into the middle class




The majority of the world were much better off before the industrial revolution.

Quote:

Statisticons_win said:
yeah, I know.

This is here and now, and that is why it excites me. It may provide us with irrefutable evidence, again, that capitalism and it's forces are win.




Except for the 80% of the world where it isn't.


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The labourer who tends a garden is perhaps in a truer sense its owner than the listless voluptuary that enjoys its fruits

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Invisiblememes
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Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: llama farmer]
    #11710993 - 12/24/09 09:44 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

llama farmer said:
The majority of the world were much better off before the industrial revolution.




Thanks for saving me time by putting that first.  After I read that I didnt have to even bother reading the rest of what you said.


:facepalm:

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: llama farmer]
    #11711171 - 12/24/09 10:36 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The majority of the world were much better off before the industrial revolution.




Source?

Also, by what criteria do you use to determine this?

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Offlinellama farmer
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Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: memes]
    #11711173 - 12/24/09 10:36 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
Quote:

llama farmer said:
The majority of the world were much better off before the industrial revolution.




Thanks for saving me time by putting that first.  After I read that I didnt have to even bother reading the rest of what you said.


:facepalm:




Maybe you are interpreting the majority of the world as Western Europe? A significant portion of the world in terms of actual poverty were doing a lot better than today. Things weren't great, like medicine, but comparatively there are plenty of societies that were better off - that continent with the horn shape is one that comes to mind.


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The labourer who tends a garden is perhaps in a truer sense its owner than the listless voluptuary that enjoys its fruits

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: llama farmer]
    #11711459 - 12/24/09 11:40 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

"You may saaaaay I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one".
http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/kschlichter/2009/10/27/the-worst-song-of-all-time-imagine/

Quote:

What was Phil Spector, who produced this mess, thinking?  Right now, he ought to be thinking that “Imagine” was the second biggest mistake of his life.

And the lyrics – give me a break.  Never have so many fawned so shamelessly over such utter nonsense.

The first lines are: “Imagine there’s no heaven/it’s easy if you try.”  No, it isn’t, because if there’s no heaven then there’s no hell, and we know that there’s a hell because when this song is playing we’re in it.

And how about “Imagine all the people/Living for today?”  Yeah, he’s put his finger on our problem – too many people planning ahead and preparing for the future.  This is the kind of powerful, incisive reasoning that led a guy who could take his pick of pretty much any woman in the world to shack up with Yoko Ono.  Let me put it another way for emphasis – this guy chose to see Yoko Ono naked.  Many times.  The only response to someone with that kind of judgment is to listen carefully to what he says and then do the exact opposite.

There’s also the gratuitous commie babbling:  “Imagine no possessions/I wonder if you can/No need for greed or hunger/A brotherhood of man/Imagine all the people/Sharing all the world.”  To quote a better song by the infinitely more talented Frank Zappa, a man with an admirable lack of patience for such treacle, gag me with a spoon.

I’m not sure of the Lennon timeline, but didn’t he write this nonsense about the same time he ditched England because of the tax bite he was taking to help pay for its socialist welfare state?  Sure, depriving a rapacious lefty government of revenue by moving to someplace with a more sensible tax rate is clearly the morally correct thing to do, but isn’t the transparent hypocrisy of this poser a bit much to stomach?

And if all that’s not insipid enough, we also get:  “You may say that I’m a dreamer/But I’m not the only one.”  Oh, please.

The most galling thing about “Imagine” is how it urges the listener to assume the mantle of that “dreamer,” thereby joining the ranks of the free spirits, bohemians and other assorted loafers, chislers and social parasites who are only too happy to belly up to the table that is our society but who are nowhere to be found when the check arrives:

    “Sorry, I can’t be bothered to work to build something or to fight to defend anything – you see, I’m a dreamer, so you just let me know when you’ve gotten everything ready for me to enjoy.  Until then, I’ll be here relaxing on my parents’ sofa, pretending to read Gravity’s Rainbow. ”




Aside from the tax evasion issue the pompous fraud dealt himself he was also living in one of the most expensive buildings in one of the most expensive neighborhoods in the world.


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: Statisticons_win]
    #11711826 - 12/24/09 12:46 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/04/22 07:47 PM)

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InvisibleGI_Luvmoney
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Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #11712198 - 12/24/09 01:55 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Chemical Lobotamy, capitalism has been very very good to me.  Native Americans have proven to be some of the most racist people in the world.  They stole land from each other for 10,000 years, many of them have killed white people just because they were white, they practiced cannibalism and slavery and genocide and even shrink heads to this day.


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Invisiblememes
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Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: llama farmer]
    #11712465 - 12/24/09 02:44 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

llama farmer said:
Maybe you are interpreting the majority of the world as Western Europe? A significant portion of the world in terms of actual poverty were doing a lot better than today. Things weren't great, like medicine, but comparatively there are plenty of societies that were better off - that continent with the horn shape is one that comes to mind.



You said the majority of the world was better off before the industrial revolution. 



I'm wondering how countless new manufacturing processes that allowed durable goods to be produced en masse and for very little money made a majority of the world worse off (which is what your statement is implying?).

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: memes]
    #11712542 - 12/24/09 02:59 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Don't mind him.  He thinks it is noble to live a brutish life and die young.  Because you haven't hurt Gaia. 

Nobody was better off before the Industrial Revolution.


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: GI_Luvmoney]
    #11712836 - 12/24/09 03:46 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/04/22 07:48 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #11712863 - 12/24/09 03:51 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Why do you assume that because some tribes were welcoming all tribes were welcoming?  Not all NAs were Pueblos.  Some were vicious, opportunistic killers and slave mongers. 

Romanticizing a unitary Native American ethos is, frankly, ignorant.  They were quite diverse.


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11713812 - 12/24/09 07:28 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

---

Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/04/22 07:48 PM)

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Invisiblemoeshroom
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Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11733723 - 12/28/09 07:31 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

GI_Luvmoney said:
Chemical Lobotamy, capitalism has been very very good to me.  Native Americans have proven to be some of the most racist people in the world.  They stole land from each other for 10,000 years, many of them have killed white people just because they were white, they practiced cannibalism and slavery and genocide and even shrink heads to this day.




I'm sure that you have extensively studied Native American history, & are not just basing the above statements on your racism & bigotry.

Two things on the "barbarity" of Native peoples. While some did exist as it does among all cultures, most allegations by the early Europeans were outright lies to justify colonial expansion, as Bartolome de las Casas acknowledged, & as can be seen by racist depictions prevalent throughout American culture for most of its history. Second, killing between Native people was on a scale less than Europe & Asia throughout history. Less population density & vast resource-rich land were no doubt a contributing factor, but it was not on as great a scale nonetheless.

Killing white people simply for being white? Read the writings of Columbus himself on how the Natives treated his party on Hispaniola. Read writings by some of the honest pilgrims about their early relations with the Natives. Any killing of white people by Natives was in response to an ongoing genocide against them, for which the perpetrators of the genocide & colonial expansion bear ultimate responsibility.




Why do you assume that because some tribes were welcoming all tribes were welcoming?  Not all NAs were Pueblos.  Some were vicious, opportunistic killers and slave mongers. 

Romanticizing a unitary Native American ethos is, frankly, ignorant.  They were quite diverse.




this is how dialog works in threaded forums, ya old stick in the mud.

not

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context


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Offlinejimbotron
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Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: moeshroom]
    #11737856 - 12/29/09 02:42 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I find it hilarious how people think there's this eternal dichotomy between capitalism and communism. I guess history started a couple hundreds years ago and humanity was in the shitter up until then because capitalism didn't really exist.

For example, medieval peasants worked about 100 days a year. Fast forward to the industrial revolution, you have 8-year-olds working 16 hours a day 7 days a week. According to free marketeers, they are more productive and therefore happier.

Something doesn't add up here.


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Invisiblememes
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Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: jimbotron]
    #11738032 - 12/29/09 03:26 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jimbotron said:
For example, medieval peasants worked about 100 days a year. Fast forward to the industrial revolution, you have 8-year-olds working 16 hours a day 7 days a week. According to free marketeers, they are more productive and therefore happier.

Something doesn't add up here.



Go read the book "Pillars of the EartH"

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: jimbotron]
    #11738742 - 12/29/09 05:48 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Medieval peasants worked 100 days a year?  I suspect that the number is a lot closer to 365.  Except in a leap year, when it is probably closer to 366.


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Offlinejimbotron
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Re: Case study in Capiltalism: Indians in Briitish Columbia experiment for the first time with property [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11740726 - 12/30/09 12:17 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Medieval peasants worked 100 days a year?  I suspect that the number is a lot closer to 365.  Except in a leap year, when it is probably closer to 366.




Not at all. In England, the very most burdened serfs owed the lord 50-60 days of work a year. Bear in mind crops weren't grown for most of the year.  What's the figure these days on how long you have to work till 'tax freedom'? April 13? 102 days into the year?

'Course that isn't necessarily an argument against capitalism per se. But it's foolish to claim that everyone's lives have gotten better since the industrial revolution and the notion of "profit". Communitarian life wasn't so bad, despite the popular misconception that it entailed backbreaking labor day in day out all year long. (And modern third world life really sucks.)

But don't listen to me.

Listen to Terry Jones. I fucking love this series.

http://www.videosift.com/video/Terry-Jone-s-Medieval-Lives-1-The-Peasant

Edited by jimbotron (12/30/09 12:45 AM)

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