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 SlashOZ
:D
Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
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 Population Problem, on topic 
#11692329 - 12/21/09 01:48 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hello all,
The current population of the human race is increasing.
Already we are facing shortages of water and food in areas of the world. This is either a result of lack of current resources or a lack of equal distribution of these resources. Obviously, it is the later at this point in time.
However, it does seem like the human population will, if it continues to increase without limit, reach the point where even a perfect maximization of the redistribution of resources would fail to meet everyone's needs.
I believe this is so for a few reasons, First, we live in a world of finite space and resources. Second, very few countries have controls on family size. In fact several countries encourage families to have more children, Russia comes to mind first. Without population controls in the form of law to limit the size of the family then we can only expect that the population will continue to increase.
In order to meet everyone's needs the population will eventually need to have a growth rate of zero and stabilize itself at the carrying capacity for our environment here on earth. This is assuming there isn't a technological solution to this problem such as living in space or continually genetically engineering plants, and altering the environment to maximize its potential.
Questions here seem to be:
How can we justify limiting people's freedom now to help future generations that we will never see?
Are there limits to human technological capabilities as far as altering our environment to suit our needs here on earth? Can we do it indefinitely or will we reach a point where we must alter our breeding in order to provide for everyone?
Is human suffering inevitable and as a result not always a consequence of the decisions of individuals? In such case do we need to worry about the population problem at all? This begs the question of whether or not the population problem will solve itself.
I suggest reading this article from the 1960's, Garrett Hardin
--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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 Islandminded
The Teeth Behind the Wheel
Registered: 03/26/09
Posts: 124
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Re: Population Problem, on topic [Re: SlashOZ]
#11692361 - 12/21/09 01:52 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Go with Terrence, "If every woman would limit themselves to one child the population would be cut in half in a generation."
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,336
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Re: Population Problem, on topic [Re: Islandminded]
#11692448 - 12/21/09 02:08 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Without population controls in the form of law to limit the size of the family then we can only expect that the population will continue to increase.
Wrong.
If every man and woman were educated and had access to contraception, there would be no need to limit freedom. China's problem came from the importation of the agricultural revolution to a poor, uneducated population. Now, the modern population is being asked to have more kids, while those regions which are still undeveloped are still held to the one child policy.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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SlashOZ
:D
Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
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Re: Population Problem, on topic [Re: Rahz]
#11692655 - 12/21/09 02:42 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
Without population controls in the form of law to limit the size of the family then we can only expect that the population will continue to increase.
Wrong.
If every man and woman were educated and had access to contraception, there would be no need to limit freedom. China's problem came from the importation of the agricultural revolution to a poor, uneducated population. Now, the modern population is being asked to have more kids, while those regions which are still undeveloped are still held to the one child policy.
And Africa has all those educated people..? Most areas of high population growth are areas with low education.
How do you propose we fix this problem? We could wait until Africa and other places finally develop on their own to a certain point where they are educated enough to not have huge families. Or we could intervene with bodies such as the World food bank, IMF, UN, redcross, peace corps, etc.
Assuming free will, do we have a responsibility to help these places avoid overpopulation? How can we say that our way is the best way?
Also assuming free will I think we can safely conclude that not everyone can be 'educated' in a way as to have only one child unless we are talking about serious social engineering from a young age????
Education may be part of the solution but it is hardly the entire solution. Not everyone is persuaded by science some are led by faith or other things etc. Also your argument has shown that law is problem not the only answer either.
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"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,336
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Re: Population Problem, on topic [Re: SlashOZ]
#11693217 - 12/21/09 03:52 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Most areas of high population growth are areas with low education.
Exactly my point.
Quote:
How do you propose we fix this problem?
Well, education and access to relevant technology is the only solution. Culture, religion, politics, idealism, they are the roadblocks. The people must individually give up their religious bias, their limiting culture, their idealistic fantasies.
It all happens on a personal level, which is pretty scary, but I don't see any other way. If you were Catholic for instance, demand that the Church abandon it's stance on contraception. It's insane, and quite the dirty standard when modern catholics have a drawer full of condoms and pills, yet by saying nothing and doing nothing, they are also responsible for contraceptives being withheld from developing nations!
Personally, I have no idea whether population will level out without a troublesome decrease in life expectancy, but I still like to point out that it is possible. China is converting 100,000 people a month into modern society.
Quote:
Without population controls in the form of law to limit the size of the family then we can only expect that the population will continue to increase.
Blank statements like this bother me as much as the idea of a population crash. Give up your freedom or else!
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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SlashOZ
:D
Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
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Re: Population Problem, on topic [Re: Rahz]
#11693460 - 12/21/09 04:27 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
Most areas of high population growth are areas with low education.
Exactly my point.
Quote:
How do you propose we fix this problem?
Well, education and access to relevant technology is the only solution. Culture, religion, politics, idealism, they are the roadblocks. The people must individually give up their religious bias, their limiting culture, their idealistic fantasies.
It all happens on a personal level, which is pretty scary, but I don't see any other way. If you were Catholic for instance, demand that the Church abandon it's stance on contraception. It's insane, and quite the dirty standard when modern catholics have a drawer full of condoms and pills, yet by saying nothing and doing nothing, they are also responsible for contraceptives being withheld from developing nations!
Personally, I have no idea whether population will level out without a troublesome decrease in life expectancy, but I still like to point out that it is possible. China is converting 100,000 people a month into modern society.
Quote:
Without population controls in the form of law to limit the size of the family then we can only expect that the population will continue to increase.
Blank statements like this bother me as much as the idea of a population crash. Give up your freedom or else!
I already answered your attack on my position about law as the only answer, i conceded already that law isn't the only answer, actually read my posts plz.
You say individuals have to choose but without education they won't make the choice, this is your argument right?
So...
Voluntary education or mandatory education?
If voluntary how are you going to fund it? Also if its voluntary how will we get everyone to agree not to breed as to not overpopulate? It seems naive to assume that everyone would voluntarily subject themselves to this education program you propose.
If mandatory education wouldn't that just be using laws?
--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,336
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Re: Population Problem, on topic [Re: SlashOZ]
#11693679 - 12/21/09 05:00 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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It seems reasonable that people want to be educated.
I think funding would be fine in the absence of profiteers, and power hungry leaders. 
It may seem nieve, but as you said, 'Most areas of high population growth are areas with low education.' The inverse is that most areas of high education are areas with low population growth. People will generally choose what's best for themselves, within the specific set of options they are aware of.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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SlashOZ
:D
Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
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Re: Population Problem, on topic [Re: Rahz]
#11694605 - 12/21/09 07:21 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
It seems reasonable that people want to be educated.
I think funding would be fine in the absence of profiteers, and power hungry leaders.
It may seem nieve, but as you said, 'Most areas of high population growth are areas with low education.' The inverse is that most areas of high education are areas with low population growth. People will generally choose what's best for themselves, within the specific set of options they are aware of.
Quote:
Rahz said:
It seems reasonable that people want to be educated.
I think funding would be fine in the absence of profiteers, and power hungry leaders.
It may seem nieve, but as you said, 'Most areas of high population growth are areas with low education.' The inverse is that most areas of high education are areas with low population growth. People will generally choose what's best for themselves, within the specific set of options they are aware of.
How can you choose education if you are in Africa and your village is war torn without education opportunities? Is it our responsibility to step in to ensure education takes place? Why is it our responsibility?
--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
Edited by SlashOZ (12/21/09 08:23 PM)
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area 
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Re: Population Problem, on topic [Re: SlashOZ]
#11694844 - 12/21/09 08:10 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
SlashOZ said:
Why is our responsibility?
Typo. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,336
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Re: Population Problem, on topic [Re: SlashOZ]
#11695908 - 12/21/09 10:49 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
How can you choose education if you are in Africa and your village is war torn without education opportunities? Is it our responsibility to step in to ensure education takes place? Why is it our responsibility?
I think funding would be fine in the absence of profiteers, and power hungry leaders. It's not our responsibility, but some people have an interest in it just the same. It's all a war between civility and egotistical belief systems is it not?
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Edited by Rahz (12/21/09 11:02 PM)
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BrainChemistry
Captain Obvious
Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 3,657
Loc: Mountains of N. America
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
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Re: Population Problem, on topic [Re: Rahz]
#11695986 - 12/21/09 10:59 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
In order to meet everyone's needs the population will eventually need to have a growth rate of zero and stabilize itself at the carrying capacity for our environment here on earth. This is assuming there isn't a technological solution to this problem such as living in space or continually genetically engineering plants, and altering the environment to maximize its potential.
Questions here seem to be:
How can we justify limiting people's freedom now to help future generations that we will never see?
I personally doubt that this will ever be the case. We will never achieve a zero growth rate and hunger will always be an issue. I don't think it is fair to limit peoples freedom for being able to procreate. That should be their choice as individuals. You can encourage fewer children per family through incentive but I think that is all that should be done.
That just means instead technology has to increase at a greater rate than growth. Scientists need to keep making breakthroughs, creative leaps in thought need to be made. Otherwise the human race will surely perish on Earth. No species can live indefinitely on one planet...
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Word to your mom.
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Ahimsa
µdose
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,827
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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Re: Population Problem, on topic [Re: SlashOZ]
#11697150 - 12/22/09 04:10 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Note: This was posted before in a previous tread.
So what happens when a population outgrows its habitat? Here's a little something.
Endangered Japanese crane outgrowing its habitat. The crane still has the normal risks of any species locked into too small a habitat. If a large number of the same species are concentrated in one area, it becomes very difficult for them to survive purely on the food they can get in the wild and this increases the risk of massive die-off's due to deadly infectious diseases.
And this graph shows the expected population trend for the coming two centuries.
So, although the prospects aren't great, the good news is that natural processes will curb the curve and halt the expansion. Because it must! All i hope and wish for is that we humans, in the process, develop the means and skills to make this change in a way as nice as possible for everyone.
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SlashOZ
:D
Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
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Quote:
BrainChemistry said:
Quote:
In order to meet everyone's needs the population will eventually need to have a growth rate of zero and stabilize itself at the carrying capacity for our environment here on earth. This is assuming there isn't a technological solution to this problem such as living in space or continually genetically engineering plants, and altering the environment to maximize its potential.
Questions here seem to be:
How can we justify limiting people's freedom now to help future generations that we will never see?
I personally doubt that this will ever be the case. We will never achieve a zero growth rate and hunger will always be an issue. I don't think it is fair to limit peoples freedom for being able to procreate. That should be their choice as individuals. You can encourage fewer children per family through incentive but I think that is all that should be done.
That just means instead technology has to increase at a greater rate than growth. Scientists need to keep making breakthroughs, creative leaps in thought need to be made. Otherwise the human race will surely perish on Earth. No species can live indefinitely on one planet...
Ahimsa brings up some good points relating to cranes and their overpopulation of their environment. Eventually humans will need to have a growth rate of zero. It must happen given our finite resources. There will eventually be a time when if you decide to have a child you are willing bringing it into a world you know it cannot survive.
I think this means that humans will make a moral decision and choose to reproduce less.
I find it naive to say that humans can continue to improve technology to meet each new problem we face. Ultimately we will need to reduce our consumption to live off of finite resources because we aren't able to genetically engineer plants to grow fast enough to produce the amount of food we need. Ultimately we will have to reduce our usage of water because desalination plants and dams are no longer able to provide enough freshwater for human needs.
--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 20 hours
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Re: Population Problem, on topic [Re: SlashOZ]
#11698620 - 12/22/09 12:24 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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What I took from the graph is that developed countries own the world.
If you're in a poor section that is overpopulating, then YOU will have to cut resources.
The developed countries are not in danger of hitting the upper bounds.
If poorer countries start dying due to starvation (already happening) do you really think that the developed countries are going to give up food supplies to their own detriment? Nahhhhh
We'll spare enough food to make it look like we're moral do-gooders, but the reality is we're not going to starve ourselves so these other countries don't have to.
We're not even going to cut back our current standard of living if we don't have to.
--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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SlashOZ
:D
Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
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Re: Population Problem, on topic [Re: Kickle]
#11698654 - 12/22/09 12:30 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
What I took from the graph is that developed countries own the world.
If you're in a poor section that is overpopulating, then YOU will have to cut resources.
The developed countries are not in danger of hitting the upper bounds.
If poorer countries start dying due to starvation (already happening) do you really think that the developed countries are going to give up food supplies to their own detriment? Nahhhhh
We'll spare enough food to make it look like we're moral do-gooders, but the reality is we're not going to starve ourselves so these other countries don't have to.
We're not even going to cut back our current standard of living if we don't have to.
This is absolutely true right now. However in 200 years will populations be the same? Overpopulation is only a problem in a limited number of places right now.
but...
The fact that the human population is still increasing leads me to believe that overpopulation will be a problem for everyone in the future. Even in America there are thousands of families starving. So depending on your point of view overpopulation is already a problem even though it effects only a small part of the overall population.
Unless population growth slows down it will eventually lead to a problem for everyone given that we have a limited number of resources.
The question here I guess is, do we wait until it is a problem for everyone or do we take preventative measures?
--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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Fraggin
Multi-Faceted
Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 8,707
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
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Re: Population Problem, on topic [Re: SlashOZ]
#11698668 - 12/22/09 12:33 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
SlashOZ said:
Questions here seem to be:
How can we justify limiting people's freedom now to help future generations that we will never see?
Quote:
The same way limiting our freedom is justified now.
Quote:
Are there limits to human technological capabilities as far as altering our environment to suit our needs here on earth?
We have been doing that for years. Its called agricultural development.
Quote:
Quote:
Can we do it indefinitely or will we reach a point where we must alter our breeding in order to provide for everyone?
All we can do is roll with change. The earth is an ever changing thing. We should be flexible enough to change as well.
Is human suffering inevitable and as a result not always a consequence of the decisions of individuals? In such case do we need to worry about the population problem at all? This begs the question of whether or not the population problem will solve itself.
I suggest reading this article from the 1960's, Garrett Hardin
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Ahimsa
µdose
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,827
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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Re: Population Problem, on topic [Re: Fraggin]
#11699228 - 12/22/09 02:01 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Just to say i read Garrett Hardin's paper on The Problem Of The Commons and feel delighted i did so. Thank you for posting!
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SlashOZ
:D
Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
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Re: Population Problem, on topic [Re: Ahimsa]
#11699279 - 12/22/09 02:07 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ahimsa said:
Just to say i read Garrett Hardin's paper on The Problem Of The Commons and feel delighted i did so. Thank you for posting!
Your welcome.
It is a good read for this subject.
--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 20 hours
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Re: Population Problem, on topic [Re: SlashOZ]
#11699428 - 12/22/09 02:25 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
SlashOZ said:
This is absolutely true right now. However in 200 years will populations be the same? Overpopulation is only a problem in a limited number of places right now.
I don't like to take wild stabs at predicting the future 
Current trends suggest to me that the population of developed nation will remain stable.
Quote:
The fact that the human population is still increasing leads me to believe that overpopulation will be a problem for everyone in the future. Even in America there are thousands of families starving. So depending on your point of view overpopulation is already a problem even though it effects only a small part of the overall population.
Birth rates in developed countries are dropping, not increasing. And starvation is a part of any species. Animals don't eat only what they need to break even on calories. They eat as much as they possibly can, because who knows when it won't be available? It's a response to a very real fear, a fear produced by finite resources... much as we are faced with. The natural response is to ensure your own survival first, and then try to ensure that of your kin, and others in your species only if it causes no harm to the first two.
Quote:
The question here I guess is, do we wait until it is a problem for everyone or do we take preventative measures?
Seems like we already have in developed nations.
--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Population Problem, on topic [Re: SlashOZ]
#11699540 - 12/22/09 02:36 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
SlashOZ said:
Your welcome.
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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