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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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An interesting paper with pasteurization details. * 1
    #11687699 - 12/20/09 05:42 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

http://www.alohaecowas.com/diversified-agriculture-part1.html

It was written for third world mushroom growing, but is applicable everywhere.  Scroll down in the article to look at the charts comparing steam, soap, lime, and bleach pasteurization and the differences in yield from each.
RR


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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11688591 - 12/20/09 07:56 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Looks like shredding your straw is the way to go, no matter what treatment method you use.  I wonder how fine the 50hp Jacobsen hammer mill shreds the straw.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: LokelYokel]
    #11688930 - 12/20/09 08:54 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I don't know, but at 50hp, it probably shreds a LOT of it.  I can keep up with my farm using a weed whacker to shred straw. :laugh:
RR


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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Offlinefungus_tao
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11689214 - 12/20/09 09:56 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Wow, interesting results. Looks like lime and bleach could both prove very effective for elm oysters.

Aloha Paper on Lime:
Quote:

The ELM 1 strain had an efficiency of 168.9% on shredded straw and 53.2% on unshredded straw, a difference of 115.7%.




That's pretty nice...straw logs could be made using only water and lime to prepare the shredded straw, making the energy spent on the substrate a walk to the hardware store, and shredding the straw which can be done with shears by hand. :thumbup:


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InvisibleRonPaulVerm
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11689259 - 12/20/09 10:10 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

What I don't get about this experiment is that they are trying to find ways to integrate a commercialized process into "less developed" regions. I understand that. They talk about the use of alternative spawn substrates like sorghum and banana waste, which is a good start. BUT then the process uses oyster shells. I'd imagine only the  coastal regions could afford this. Well, like the paper points out, this one of the FIRST steps.

Interesting that some strains did better with unshredded straw when treated with bleach or tide powder....

Did you guys read the conclusion? That's what I'm talking about!!! :thumbup:  I'm going to study that in my following years....Permaculture (and how mushrooms fit into the picture)


--------------------
Spawn I Have: Blewitt, Reishi, Maitake, Chicken of the Woods, Parasol, Shaggy Mane, King, Blue and Gold Oyster, Shiitake, King Stropharia, Lions Mane, Almond Portabello, Elm Oyster, Phoenix Oyster, Nameko, Enoki, White Beech,

Spawn I Want: Corcyceps Sp., Cauliflower Mushrooms, Agaricus species (Portobello), Pink Oyster, Piopinno, ...anything else you might have


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Any information I've posted is only related to fictional purposes. I do not advocate growing any illegal mushrooms 
...I DO advocate learning about
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11690907 - 12/21/09 08:17 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I don't know, but at 50hp, it probably shreds a LOT of it.  I can keep up with my farm using a weed whacker to shred straw. :laugh:
RR




Yes, for several thousands of dollars it had better shred a lot fast.  I wish they would have stated in the paper what level of shredding took place.  It looks like, depending of the screens  used in the mill, straw can be processed from its original state to almost dust.  They use these to process materials for making fuel pellets so they will grind stuff pretty fine.

I will just have to stick to the lawn mower.  I can chop up a bale in less than 10 minutes.


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OfflineJonat
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11690923 - 12/21/09 08:24 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I don't know, but at 50hp, it probably shreds a LOT of it.  I can keep up with my farm using a weed whacker to shred straw. :laugh:
RR




Yes, straw is easy with a weed wacker. But to do corn cobs, you need a hammer mill.


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OfflineMephistophelian
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11691021 - 12/21/09 08:55 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Much thanks for that...extremely informative and helpful. Especially in regards to the yield qualities using Lime (something I was hoping to learn more about).


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #11691051 - 12/21/09 09:05 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I wonder how they dispose of the lime water?  I have a creek running through my property, so don't want the high pH water getting into that to kill the fish, and nearly the entire rest of the property is our fruit tree orchard, lawn, and beehive areas.  I don't have anywhere safe to dump large barrels of lime and/or bleach.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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OfflineMephistophelian
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11691073 - 12/21/09 09:11 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

The first thing that comes to mind is adding vinegar. But that seems like an awful lot of vinegar to neutralize the amount of lime in there. I wonder what the cost would amount to if someone had to switch from steam/water pasteurizing to using lime + vinegar after the fact to rid of the hazardous effects of the pH.


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OfflineGrzyby
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11691078 - 12/21/09 09:14 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I wonder how they dispose of the lime water?  I have a creek running through my property, so don't want the high pH water getting into that to kill the fish, and nearly the entire rest of the property is our fruit tree orchard, lawn, and beehive areas.  I don't have anywhere safe to dump large barrels of lime and/or bleach.
RR




RR, what if you used vinegar or another natural acid to neutralize the lime water? I bet you could by 55 gallon barrels of vinegar cheap. Then with the bleach water, how about tossing in something to agitate the water or maybe an air diffuser in the water . This would increase the evaporation rate of the chlorine.


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OfflineMephistophelian
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: Grzyby]
    #11691090 - 12/21/09 09:18 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

One could also brew their own vinegar using vinegar cultures and sealed barrels...to make it more cost effective (if making it on your own would be more effective).


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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #11691112 - 12/21/09 09:24 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

This paper is interesting because, as I stated above, they want to create a more low scale sustainable way of cultivating mushrooms...but they are using tools that small villages would have to purchase from big time business?
Anyone else see this problem?


Brewing your own vinegar is very mush possible and easy


--------------------
Spawn I Have: Blewitt, Reishi, Maitake, Chicken of the Woods, Parasol, Shaggy Mane, King, Blue and Gold Oyster, Shiitake, King Stropharia, Lions Mane, Almond Portabello, Elm Oyster, Phoenix Oyster, Nameko, Enoki, White Beech,

Spawn I Want: Corcyceps Sp., Cauliflower Mushrooms, Agaricus species (Portobello), Pink Oyster, Piopinno, ...anything else you might have


Primitive Skills                                     

Any information I've posted is only related to fictional purposes. I do not advocate growing any illegal mushrooms 
...I DO advocate learning about
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition


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OfflineMephistophelian
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: RonPaulVerm]
    #11691170 - 12/21/09 09:46 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Another alternative to vinegar is using apple (or other fruits) juices which have very low pH values. This would work especially well if you had several apple trees that you don't eat the apples off of, or using apples that fall on the ground and mashing them and tossing them into the brew after each batch.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #11691237 - 12/21/09 10:03 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mephistophelian said:
This would work especially well if you had several apple trees that you don't eat the apples off of, or using apples that fall on the ground and mashing them and tossing them into the brew after each batch.




I'll forgive you for not knowing my wife.  If she sees a deer or bear within half a mile of our orchard, she lets our two rotties out with a command to go for the jugular.  No apple is ever going to stay on one of her trees long enough to fall off.  She picks every one, as well as some of the local native trees to make sure she gets the apples before any human or another animal gets them.

I have a propane burner for pasteurization, and also an endless supply of firewood, so I may make a wood burning sterilizer.  As for the carbon footprint of burning wood, I live only a few miles away from a large forest fire area from ten years ago, therefore have a lifetime supply of firewood that is already releasing its carbon into the air.  The forest fire burned the bark off the trees, killing them, but didn't touch the wood itself, which is now slowly releasing its carbon into the air as it rots away.  I may as well burn it.  It's how we heat our cabin and it's mine for the cost of gas for the chain saw.
RR


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OfflineMephistophelian
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11691270 - 12/21/09 10:11 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I'll forgive you for not knowing my wife.  If she sees a deer or bear within half a mile of our orchard, she lets our two rotties out with a command to go for the jugular.  No apple is ever going to stay on one of her tree long enough to fall off.  She picks every one, as well as some of the local native trees to make sure she gets the apples before any human or another animal gets them.





:lol:

Ya...with that much wood your probably better off doing it the 'old fashioned' way. I'm going to take up this Lime idea since my house at its limits for space to work with including anything involving more cooking on my poor stove and using more hot water.

I'm glad you made a point about the high acid in need of correction before dumping it back into our water systems. :thumbup:


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Offlineurbanfarmer
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #11691755 - 12/21/09 11:43 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Why neutralize?  Leave outside in an evap pond to reclaim most of the lime.  Given that we're talking about cultivation in Africa, hopefully they're doing that.


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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: urbanfarmer]
    #11692278 - 12/21/09 01:37 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I like that thought


--------------------
Spawn I Have: Blewitt, Reishi, Maitake, Chicken of the Woods, Parasol, Shaggy Mane, King, Blue and Gold Oyster, Shiitake, King Stropharia, Lions Mane, Almond Portabello, Elm Oyster, Phoenix Oyster, Nameko, Enoki, White Beech,

Spawn I Want: Corcyceps Sp., Cauliflower Mushrooms, Agaricus species (Portobello), Pink Oyster, Piopinno, ...anything else you might have


Primitive Skills                                     

Any information I've posted is only related to fictional purposes. I do not advocate growing any illegal mushrooms 
...I DO advocate learning about
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition


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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #11694100 - 12/21/09 06:06 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mephistophelian said:
I'm glad you made a point about the high acid in need of correction before dumping it back into our water systems. :thumbup:




The whole notion that anything should be dumped into waterways is strange to me. Quick lime is a good source of calcium, which many soils would benefit from. Diluted or mixed with organic matter, the pH needn't be a problem.


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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: Jonat]
    #11697384 - 12/22/09 07:04 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

That's why I made a point of it...if you were doing 4 55 gallon drums of extremely high pH liquid being dumped in/around/near a farmyard or even a plumbed system, that is still a considerable amount of very high acid liquid that would throw off the nearby water system. It was a good point that it should be on the conscious of the user that is using Lime baths rather then steam/woodfire.


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Offlineurbanfarmer
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #11697625 - 12/22/09 08:42 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

@Mephistophelian: lime is not acid, lime is a base.  High pH means basic; low pH means acid.  pH 7 is neutral (pure water).  The chemistry comprehension around here is not terribly high.

This would 'throw off the local water system', but 'local' in this case could be pretty small.  This is a hydroxide, which in terms of effect in soil is much like a carbonate, only it is stronger so the reaction happens much faster.  The reaction just leaves calcium salts, calcium oxide, etc, laying around in the end, which aren't toxic.  So while the pH is high, it's not toxic in the sense of haloalkyl groups (personally I'd be more concerned with the bleach bath and side reactions).

Again, stop dumping things on the ground if you don't want them on the ground.  Dry off the solvent (water) and reclaim the active compound (lime).  Reuse.


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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: urbanfarmer]
    #11697657 - 12/22/09 08:55 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry, got my pH scale bit on the mix up on the polarities there...since I'm not a chemist. Many of us have a wide range of strong points, including biology which is why were in the growing section rather then pharma & chem lab of the forum.

But case in point, RR made a point that I thought was valid and that it was something to keep in mind, especially for those who don't have extensive plumbing or have a very closely knit ecosystem and little time for recollection of lime salts in the bath water. Some folks in here have limited chemistry experience and have to make due with what they can, no need to be condescending.

I agree, bleach is downright horrific...


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Edited by Mephistophelian (12/22/09 09:01 AM)


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Offlineurbanfarmer
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #11697673 - 12/22/09 09:02 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Try this: build a square out of 2x10", laying on its side so that the 10" side forms an empty 'box' on the ground.  Line with multiple sheets of alkaline-safe plastic.  Pour in the lime bath after use.  Leave for several days, preferably in a windy and sunny spot.

This is seriously not rocket science.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: urbanfarmer]
    #11697787 - 12/22/09 09:35 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

The evaporative method might work for desert dwellers, but not for me.  Even during our very short summers, the temps drop to near freezing at night, and because it's heavily forested, the required open, sunny spots are in short supply.  We have snow cover for seven months out of the year, and since I'll be pasteurizing several 55 gallon drums per day, it would overwhelm any system I can come up with other than draining it onto the ground, which means it will end up in the creek. 

For these reasons, I'll stick with heat pasteurization using plain water.  My main concerns are possible toxic residue from the straw itself, and warming the water in the creek, leading to algae growth.
RR


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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11697977 - 12/22/09 10:25 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

For these reasons, I'll stick with heat pasteurization using plain water.  My main concerns are possible toxic residue from the straw itself, and warming the water in the creek, leading to algae growth.




I thought I read that straw teas become somewhat toxic and can be used a a herbicide.


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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: LokelYokel]
    #11698106 - 12/22/09 10:58 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

In Mycelium Running, Stamets tells of using mycelium laden bales of straw, burlap bags of "bunker spawn" and beds of woodchips as "mycofilters" to filter cow manure water runoff, reducing the bacterial and toxic metal load. Perhaps such a system could be utilized to filter the byproducts of mushroom farming.


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Offlineurbanfarmer
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: frankenstoen]
    #11698264 - 12/22/09 11:21 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

@RR: always an excellent choice to tune your processes to your biome.

@Yokel: I think I read that in GGMM, but never did more research.  I wonder if it does that with organic straw or is aggregate sprayed pesticide residue.  If it's common to both, if whatever organic compounds coming over that are herbicidal are amenable to treatment.


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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: LokelYokel]
    #11698300 - 12/22/09 11:27 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LokelYokel said:
Quote:

For these reasons, I'll stick with heat pasteurization using plain water.  My main concerns are possible toxic residue from the straw itself, and warming the water in the creek, leading to algae growth.




I thought I read that straw teas become somewhat toxic and can be used a a herbicide.



Exactly what I was referring to.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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Offlinebobgeorge24
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11711182 - 12/24/09 10:40 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

wetlands are extremely good at filtering water before entering the watershed. a small greenhouse of about 12' by 12' should be a large enough footprint to construct a wetland that can handle your daily loads.

paul staments actually does some wetland engineering with oyster mushrtooms to filter out metals and other contams.


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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #12292315 - 03/29/10 11:32 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I must say Meph, that most soils in the tropics are low pH with virgin soils being as low as 4.  So the addition of lime water to the soil would be the best way to dispose of it and help raise the pH for better cropping.

The idea of evaporating the water is an excellent one.

I know of a commercial operation using lime at 2% concentration and will suggest the evaporation idea to them.


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Offlineurbanfarmer
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: solumvita]
    #12292439 - 03/29/10 11:57 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

If you go the evap route, I'd wash the dried residue with alcohol to dissolve out the organic crap, leaving the lime behind.  (Then I'd run gc & ftir on the organic crap and find out what causes the putative herbicidal effects.  Step 3, profit.)


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Offlinehoudinihar
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: urbanfarmer]
    #12301344 - 03/30/10 06:56 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

i read all the other links starting at the home site and what i see overall is a very expensive setup--more than $4 million USD--all from Aloha.

Diversified Agriculture Proposal

here's their basic layout.

1. The spawn plant described herein is PHASE I of a four-phase Food and Jobs program.
2. The second phase is building a plant to locally produce dry pelleted fish food which will be used in Tilapia Fish Farming.
3. PHASE III is building a state of the art Tilapia Fingerling Hatchery in the Volta Region
4. The final phase is constructing an assembly plant to build floating Tilapia fish pens similar to those which are now used in the Volta region of Ghana and other regions of Africa


houdinihar


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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: RonPaulVerm]
    #12301455 - 03/30/10 07:21 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RonPaulVerm said:
This paper is interesting because, as I stated above, they want to create a more low scale sustainable way of cultivating mushrooms...but they are using tools that small villages would have to purchase from big time business?
Anyone else see this problem?




:rofl2::laugh2: Yes, RPV, I'm with you there in so many ways....another one, especially for "permaculture" concerns is the teaching the third world "easy!" ways to spread more toxics around, what with all their OSHA and Environmental Protection standards....:cool:
:rofl2:


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: curenado]
    #12304525 - 03/31/10 10:18 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

curenado said:
I'm with you there in so many ways....another one, especially for "permaculture" concerns is the teaching the third world "easy!" ways to spread more toxics around, what with all their OSHA and Environmental Protection standards....:cool:
:rofl2:




Care to elaborate?  The charts clearly show steam sterilization to be superior to chemical/lime bath methods.  Exactly what toxins are spread by that?  Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.  The Ghana project involves using the spent substrates as fish food, which then become food for humans.  Do you see a problem with the model?  I'm duplicating many of those techniques here, except that my spent substrates are being used for soil conditioning and cattle feed supplementation.
RR


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Offlineurbanfarmer
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #12304636 - 03/31/10 10:42 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I'm duplicating many of those techniques here, except that my spent substrates are being used for soil conditioning and cattle feed supplementation.
RR




How much do cows go for that?  Just straw substrates or sawdust too?  What rate of supplementation?


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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #12306551 - 03/31/10 03:33 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:

Care to elaborate?  The charts clearly show steam sterilization to be superior to chemical/lime bath methods. 





Huh? Figure 4 shows that on average, agricultural lime treatment edges out steam pasteurization (~145% BE vs ~135% BE for shredded straw). The bottom line from the study as I see it is that 1) lime is as good, if not better than steam pasteurization, 2) chlorine bleach and detergent were somewhat inferior, and 3) shredding is very beneficial regardless of method of pasteurization.


Edited by Jonat (03/31/10 03:47 PM)


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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: Jonat]
    #12306798 - 03/31/10 04:24 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


Huh? Figure 4 shows that on average




That must be key.  My own results show heat treating to be far superior.  A lot of it depends on species.

I have no place to properly dispose of the lime, so I've quit using it.  I have a septic tank, so I don't want to put it there, and with a fish-bearing creek passing through my property, I certainly don't want it draining into that.  With 7 months per year of snow cover, I can't evaporate the water to reclaim the lime, thus I use heat alone now.

Definitely shred the straw.
RR


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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #12316899 - 04/02/10 10:14 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mephistophelian said:
The first thing that comes to mind is adding vinegar. But that seems like an awful lot of vinegar to neutralize the amount of lime in there. I wonder what the cost would amount to if someone had to switch from steam/water pasteurizing to using lime + vinegar after the fact to rid of the hazardous effects of the pH.




Vinegar would immediately neutralize the calcium, but in the medium to long term, adding calcium acetate to soil or water would raise the pH. Organic acids would ultimately get broken down by microbial enzymes and drift away as CO2, but the calcium would stay behind.

Here's a low cost answer: sulfuric acid. It reacts with various calcium lyes to form our old friend, gypsum! The cheapest, most readily available form of sulfuric acid is battery acid from an auto parts store (make sure it is additive free). About $5 a gallon for the strong stuff when bought in 5 gallon lots. I don't think it would take much to neutralize a bath that has a few cups of hydrated lime. A simple pH reading indicates when it has neutralized the calcium. Biggest danger with this method is not the environment, but the person measuring and mixing the acid.


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Offlinecurenado
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: Jonat]
    #12465638 - 04/27/10 01:31 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

My point was that 3rd world places often go for "cheapest/fastest/easiest" with no regard for environmental impact or safety.
Just because the best method is shown....
Not to be overly cynical, but history and all...


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Offlinemushroomboro
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: Jonat]
    #13325846 - 10/12/10 01:18 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Does anyone know how true this statement is? I'm not the best when it comes to chemistry. The part about using sulfuric acid no neutralize the lime?








Quote:

Jonat said:
Quote:

Mephistophelian said:
The first thing that comes to mind is adding vinegar. But that seems like an awful lot of vinegar to neutralize the amount of lime in there. I wonder what the cost would amount to if someone had to switch from steam/water pasteurizing to using lime + vinegar after the fact to rid of the hazardous effects of the pH.




Vinegar would immediately neutralize the calcium, but in the medium to long term, adding calcium acetate to soil or water would raise the pH. Organic acids would ultimately get broken down by microbial enzymes and drift away as CO2, but the calcium would stay behind.

Here's a low cost answer: sulfuric acid. It reacts with various calcium lyes to form our old friend, gypsum! The cheapest, most readily available form of sulfuric acid is battery acid from an auto parts store (make sure it is additive free). About $5 a gallon for the strong stuff when bought in 5 gallon lots. I don't think it would take much to neutralize a bath that has a few cups of hydrated lime. A simple pH reading indicates when it has neutralized the calcium. Biggest danger with this method is not the environment, but the person measuring and mixing the acid.




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Offlineurbanfarmer
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: mushroomboro]
    #13336706 - 10/14/10 05:01 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

It's true.  Pick up an into chem textbook.


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Offlinemushroomboro
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: urbanfarmer]
    #13337135 - 10/14/10 07:12 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

So the sulfuric acid is also neutralized. Having no effects on the local water/environment, when you drain the water? I will have to search the internet for more on this. Thanks for your input. I thought gypsum was the same thing as lime? Just slower release do to it being  a solid form?


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