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Offlineurbanfarmer
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #11697625 - 12/22/09 08:42 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

@Mephistophelian: lime is not acid, lime is a base.  High pH means basic; low pH means acid.  pH 7 is neutral (pure water).  The chemistry comprehension around here is not terribly high.

This would 'throw off the local water system', but 'local' in this case could be pretty small.  This is a hydroxide, which in terms of effect in soil is much like a carbonate, only it is stronger so the reaction happens much faster.  The reaction just leaves calcium salts, calcium oxide, etc, laying around in the end, which aren't toxic.  So while the pH is high, it's not toxic in the sense of haloalkyl groups (personally I'd be more concerned with the bleach bath and side reactions).

Again, stop dumping things on the ground if you don't want them on the ground.  Dry off the solvent (water) and reclaim the active compound (lime).  Reuse.


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OfflineMephistophelian
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: urbanfarmer]
    #11697657 - 12/22/09 08:55 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry, got my pH scale bit on the mix up on the polarities there...since I'm not a chemist. Many of us have a wide range of strong points, including biology which is why were in the growing section rather then pharma & chem lab of the forum.

But case in point, RR made a point that I thought was valid and that it was something to keep in mind, especially for those who don't have extensive plumbing or have a very closely knit ecosystem and little time for recollection of lime salts in the bath water. Some folks in here have limited chemistry experience and have to make due with what they can, no need to be condescending.

I agree, bleach is downright horrific...


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Edited by Mephistophelian (12/22/09 09:01 AM)


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Offlineurbanfarmer
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #11697673 - 12/22/09 09:02 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Try this: build a square out of 2x10", laying on its side so that the 10" side forms an empty 'box' on the ground.  Line with multiple sheets of alkaline-safe plastic.  Pour in the lime bath after use.  Leave for several days, preferably in a windy and sunny spot.

This is seriously not rocket science.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: urbanfarmer]
    #11697787 - 12/22/09 09:35 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

The evaporative method might work for desert dwellers, but not for me.  Even during our very short summers, the temps drop to near freezing at night, and because it's heavily forested, the required open, sunny spots are in short supply.  We have snow cover for seven months out of the year, and since I'll be pasteurizing several 55 gallon drums per day, it would overwhelm any system I can come up with other than draining it onto the ground, which means it will end up in the creek. 

For these reasons, I'll stick with heat pasteurization using plain water.  My main concerns are possible toxic residue from the straw itself, and warming the water in the creek, leading to algae growth.
RR


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InvisibleLokelYokel
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11697977 - 12/22/09 10:25 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

For these reasons, I'll stick with heat pasteurization using plain water.  My main concerns are possible toxic residue from the straw itself, and warming the water in the creek, leading to algae growth.




I thought I read that straw teas become somewhat toxic and can be used a a herbicide.


--------------------
ReUse! RePurpose! ReCycle!  "Mom says use it again!"


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Invisiblefrankenstoen

Registered: 01/26/08
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: LokelYokel]
    #11698106 - 12/22/09 10:58 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

In Mycelium Running, Stamets tells of using mycelium laden bales of straw, burlap bags of "bunker spawn" and beds of woodchips as "mycofilters" to filter cow manure water runoff, reducing the bacterial and toxic metal load. Perhaps such a system could be utilized to filter the byproducts of mushroom farming.


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Offlineurbanfarmer
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: frankenstoen]
    #11698264 - 12/22/09 11:21 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

@RR: always an excellent choice to tune your processes to your biome.

@Yokel: I think I read that in GGMM, but never did more research.  I wonder if it does that with organic straw or is aggregate sprayed pesticide residue.  If it's common to both, if whatever organic compounds coming over that are herbicidal are amenable to treatment.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: LokelYokel]
    #11698300 - 12/22/09 11:27 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LokelYokel said:
Quote:

For these reasons, I'll stick with heat pasteurization using plain water.  My main concerns are possible toxic residue from the straw itself, and warming the water in the creek, leading to algae growth.




I thought I read that straw teas become somewhat toxic and can be used a a herbicide.



Exactly what I was referring to.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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Offlinebobgeorge24
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11711182 - 12/24/09 10:40 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

wetlands are extremely good at filtering water before entering the watershed. a small greenhouse of about 12' by 12' should be a large enough footprint to construct a wetland that can handle your daily loads.

paul staments actually does some wetland engineering with oyster mushrtooms to filter out metals and other contams.


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Offlinesolumvita
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #12292315 - 03/29/10 11:32 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I must say Meph, that most soils in the tropics are low pH with virgin soils being as low as 4.  So the addition of lime water to the soil would be the best way to dispose of it and help raise the pH for better cropping.

The idea of evaporating the water is an excellent one.

I know of a commercial operation using lime at 2% concentration and will suggest the evaporation idea to them.


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Offlineurbanfarmer
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: solumvita]
    #12292439 - 03/29/10 11:57 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

If you go the evap route, I'd wash the dried residue with alcohol to dissolve out the organic crap, leaving the lime behind.  (Then I'd run gc & ftir on the organic crap and find out what causes the putative herbicidal effects.  Step 3, profit.)


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Offlinehoudinihar
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: urbanfarmer]
    #12301344 - 03/30/10 06:56 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

i read all the other links starting at the home site and what i see overall is a very expensive setup--more than $4 million USD--all from Aloha.

Diversified Agriculture Proposal

here's their basic layout.

1. The spawn plant described herein is PHASE I of a four-phase Food and Jobs program.
2. The second phase is building a plant to locally produce dry pelleted fish food which will be used in Tilapia Fish Farming.
3. PHASE III is building a state of the art Tilapia Fingerling Hatchery in the Volta Region
4. The final phase is constructing an assembly plant to build floating Tilapia fish pens similar to those which are now used in the Volta region of Ghana and other regions of Africa


houdinihar


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Offlinecurenado
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: RonPaulVerm]
    #12301455 - 03/30/10 07:21 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RonPaulVerm said:
This paper is interesting because, as I stated above, they want to create a more low scale sustainable way of cultivating mushrooms...but they are using tools that small villages would have to purchase from big time business?
Anyone else see this problem?




:rofl2::laugh2: Yes, RPV, I'm with you there in so many ways....another one, especially for "permaculture" concerns is the teaching the third world "easy!" ways to spread more toxics around, what with all their OSHA and Environmental Protection standards....:cool:
:rofl2:


--------------------
Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: curenado]
    #12304525 - 03/31/10 10:18 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

curenado said:
I'm with you there in so many ways....another one, especially for "permaculture" concerns is the teaching the third world "easy!" ways to spread more toxics around, what with all their OSHA and Environmental Protection standards....:cool:
:rofl2:




Care to elaborate?  The charts clearly show steam sterilization to be superior to chemical/lime bath methods.  Exactly what toxins are spread by that?  Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.  The Ghana project involves using the spent substrates as fish food, which then become food for humans.  Do you see a problem with the model?  I'm duplicating many of those techniques here, except that my spent substrates are being used for soil conditioning and cattle feed supplementation.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Offlineurbanfarmer
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #12304636 - 03/31/10 10:42 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I'm duplicating many of those techniques here, except that my spent substrates are being used for soil conditioning and cattle feed supplementation.
RR




How much do cows go for that?  Just straw substrates or sawdust too?  What rate of supplementation?


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OfflineJonat
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #12306551 - 03/31/10 03:33 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:

Care to elaborate?  The charts clearly show steam sterilization to be superior to chemical/lime bath methods. 





Huh? Figure 4 shows that on average, agricultural lime treatment edges out steam pasteurization (~145% BE vs ~135% BE for shredded straw). The bottom line from the study as I see it is that 1) lime is as good, if not better than steam pasteurization, 2) chlorine bleach and detergent were somewhat inferior, and 3) shredding is very beneficial regardless of method of pasteurization.


Edited by Jonat (03/31/10 03:47 PM)


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: Jonat]
    #12306798 - 03/31/10 04:24 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


Huh? Figure 4 shows that on average




That must be key.  My own results show heat treating to be far superior.  A lot of it depends on species.

I have no place to properly dispose of the lime, so I've quit using it.  I have a septic tank, so I don't want to put it there, and with a fish-bearing creek passing through my property, I certainly don't want it draining into that.  With 7 months per year of snow cover, I can't evaporate the water to reclaim the lime, thus I use heat alone now.

Definitely shred the straw.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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OfflineJonat
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #12316899 - 04/02/10 10:14 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mephistophelian said:
The first thing that comes to mind is adding vinegar. But that seems like an awful lot of vinegar to neutralize the amount of lime in there. I wonder what the cost would amount to if someone had to switch from steam/water pasteurizing to using lime + vinegar after the fact to rid of the hazardous effects of the pH.




Vinegar would immediately neutralize the calcium, but in the medium to long term, adding calcium acetate to soil or water would raise the pH. Organic acids would ultimately get broken down by microbial enzymes and drift away as CO2, but the calcium would stay behind.

Here's a low cost answer: sulfuric acid. It reacts with various calcium lyes to form our old friend, gypsum! The cheapest, most readily available form of sulfuric acid is battery acid from an auto parts store (make sure it is additive free). About $5 a gallon for the strong stuff when bought in 5 gallon lots. I don't think it would take much to neutralize a bath that has a few cups of hydrated lime. A simple pH reading indicates when it has neutralized the calcium. Biggest danger with this method is not the environment, but the person measuring and mixing the acid.


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Offlinecurenado
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: Jonat]
    #12465638 - 04/27/10 01:31 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

My point was that 3rd world places often go for "cheapest/fastest/easiest" with no regard for environmental impact or safety.
Just because the best method is shown....
Not to be overly cynical, but history and all...


--------------------
Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."


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Offlinemushroomboro
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Re: An interesting paper with pasteurization details. [Re: Jonat]
    #13325846 - 10/12/10 01:18 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Does anyone know how true this statement is? I'm not the best when it comes to chemistry. The part about using sulfuric acid no neutralize the lime?








Quote:

Jonat said:
Quote:

Mephistophelian said:
The first thing that comes to mind is adding vinegar. But that seems like an awful lot of vinegar to neutralize the amount of lime in there. I wonder what the cost would amount to if someone had to switch from steam/water pasteurizing to using lime + vinegar after the fact to rid of the hazardous effects of the pH.




Vinegar would immediately neutralize the calcium, but in the medium to long term, adding calcium acetate to soil or water would raise the pH. Organic acids would ultimately get broken down by microbial enzymes and drift away as CO2, but the calcium would stay behind.

Here's a low cost answer: sulfuric acid. It reacts with various calcium lyes to form our old friend, gypsum! The cheapest, most readily available form of sulfuric acid is battery acid from an auto parts store (make sure it is additive free). About $5 a gallon for the strong stuff when bought in 5 gallon lots. I don't think it would take much to neutralize a bath that has a few cups of hydrated lime. A simple pH reading indicates when it has neutralized the calcium. Biggest danger with this method is not the environment, but the person measuring and mixing the acid.




--------------------
If you want something done right, do it yourself!         
DON'T DO THIS>  :badshroom:      :notards:


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