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Invisibledaytripper23
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Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy...
    #11678390 - 12/19/09 01:04 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

At the forefront of Nietzsche's novels "The Birth of Tragedy" and "The Gay Science", is the perplexing theme of intoxication. What does Nietzsche mean by this? What is the following Ecstasy? In the ostensible art of the former text, and science of the latter, by these questions we would seem to address the scopes and bounds of Nietzsche's "metaphysics".

I believe such a pretext (or pretense) is one we are all yet all familiar with. We're aware that we aren't "special" to society, but daily, weekly, monthly, acquire this cumbersome equivalence in our bodies and state. Through Nietzsche, I would speak of intoxication and ecstacy in face of that apparently profound inexpertise...Perhaps not anything metaphysical, but seemingly something underground as in a basement, or maybe up in an attic.

Would anyone be interested in an underground project? I will be reading extensively into one or both of these texts over winter break, and thought maybe a few of you would be interested in collaboration. With the pretense of being "on the same page" in front of us (the texts are free online) by that criteria a close and informed reading might be the sole ideal. 

As a preview of these texts I'll quote the opening passages of both "The Birth of Tragedy", and "The Gay Science" that piqued my own interest.

Quote:


We shall have gained much for the science of aesthetics, once we percieve not merely by logical inference, but with the immediate certainty of vision, that the continuous development of art is bound up with the Apollinian and Dionysian duality - just as procreation depends on the duality of the sexes, involving perpetual strive with only periodically intervening reconciliations. The terms Dionysian and Appolinian we borrow from the Greeks, who disclose to the discerning mind the profound mysteries of their view of art, not, to be sure, in concepts, but in the intensely clear figures of their gods. Through Apollo and Dionysus, the two art deities of the Greeks we come to recognize that in the Greek world there existed a tremendous opposition, in origin and aims, between the Apollinian art of sculpture, and the nonimagistic, Dionysian art of music. These two different tendencies run parallel to each other, for the most part openly at variance; and they continually incite each other to new and more powerful births, which perpetuate an antagonism, only superficially reconciled by the common term "art"; till eventually, by a metaphysical miracle of the Hellenic "will", they appear coupled with each other, and through this coupling ultimately generate an equally Dionysian and Apollinian form of art - Attic tragedy.

In order to grasp these two tendencies, let us first conceive of them as the separate art worlds of dreams and intoxication. These physiological phenomena present a contrast analogous to that existing between the Apollinian and the Dionysian. It was in dreams says Lucretius, that the glorious divine figures first appeared to the souls of men; in dreams the greater shaper beheld the splendid bodies of superhuman beings; and the Hellenic poet, if questioned about the mysteries of poetic inspiration, would likewise have suggested dreams and he might have given an explanation like that of Hans Sachs in the Meistersinger:

The poet's task is this, my friend,
to read his dreams and comprehend.
The truest human fancy seems
to be revealed to us in dreams:
all poems and versification
are but true dreams interpretation.

The beautiful illusion of the dream worlds, in creation of which every man is truly an artist, is the prerequisite of all plastic art, and as we shall see, of an important part of poetry also. In our dreams we delight in the immediate understanding of figures; all forms speak to us; there is nothing unimportant or superfluous. But even when this dream reality is most intense, we still have, glimmering through it, the sensation that it is mere appearance; at least this is my experience and for its frequency - indeed, normality - I could adduce many proofs, including the sayings of the poets.

Philosophical men have a presentiment that the reality in which we live and have our being is also mere appearance, and that another, quite different reality lies behneath it. Schopenhauer actually indicates as the criterion of philosophical ability the occasional ability to view men and things as mere phantoms or dream images. Thus the aesthetically sensitive man stands in the same relation to the reality of dreams as the philosopher does to the reality of existence; he is a close and willing observer, for these images afford him an interpretation of life, and by reflecting on these precesses he trains himself for life.

It is not only the agreeable and friendly images that he experiences as something universally intelligible. the serious, the troubled, the sad, the gloomy, the sudden restraints, the tricks of accident, anxious expectations, in short, the whole divine comedy of life, including the inferno, also pass before him, not like mere shadows on a wall - for he lives and suffers with these scenes - and yet not without that fleeting sensation of illusion. And perhaps many will, like myself, recall how amid the dangers and terrors of dreams that have occasionally said to themselves in self-encouragement, and not without success: "It is a dream! I will dream on!" I have likewise heard of people who were able to continue one and the same dream for three and even more successive nights - facts which indicate clearly how our innermost being, our common ground, experiences dreams with profound delight and a joyous necessity. 

This joyous necessity of the drdeam eperience has been embodied by the Greeks in their Apollo: Apollo, the god of all plastic energies, is at the same time the soothsaying god. He, who (as the etymology of the name indicates) is the "shining one," the deity of light, is also ruler over the beautiful illusion of the inner world of fantasy. The higher truth, the perfection of these states in contrast to the incompletely intelligible everyday world, this deep consciousness of nature, healing and helping in sleep and dreams, is at the same time the symbolical analogue of the soothsaying faculty and of the arts generally, which make life possible and worth living. But we must also include in our image of Apollo that delicate boundary which the dream image must not overstep lest it have a pathological effect (in which case mere appearance would decieve us as if it were crude reality). We must keep in mind that measured restraint, that freedom from the wilder emotions, that calm of the sculptor god. His eye must be "sunlike," as befits his origin; even when it is angry and distempered it is still hallowed by beautiful illusion. And so, in one sense, we might apply to Apollo the words of Schopenhauer when he speaks of the man wrapped in the veil of maya (Welt als Wille und Vortsellung, I p. 416): " Just as in a stormy sea that, unbounded in all directions, raises and drops mountainous waves, howling, a sailor sits in a boat and trusts in his frail bark: so in the midst of the world of torments the individual human being sits quietly, supported by and trusting in the principium individuationis (Principal of Individuation)." In fact, we might say of Apollo that in him the unshaken faith in this principium and the calm repose of the man wrapped up in it receive their most sublime expression; and we might call Apollo himself the glorious divine image of the principium individuationis, through whose gestures and eyes all the joy and wisdom of "illusion," together with its beauty, speak to us.

In the same work Schopenhauer has depicted for us the tremendous terror which seizes man when he is suddenly dumfounded by the cognitive form of phenomena because the principle of sufficient reason, in some one of its manifestations, seems to suffer an exception. If we add to this terror the blissful ecstasy that wells from the innermost depths of man, indeed of nature, at this collapse of the principium individuationis, we steal a limpse into the nature of the Dionysian, which is brought home to us most intimately by tha analogy of intoxication.

Either under the influence of the narcotic draught, of which the songs of all primative men and peoples speak, or with the potent coming of spring that penetrates all nature with joy, these dionysian emotions awake, and as the grow in intensity everything subjective vanishes into complete self-forgetfulness. In the German Middle Ages, too, singing and dancing crowds, ever increasing in number, whirled themselves from place to place under this same Dionysian impulse. In these dancers of St. John and St. Vitus, we rediscover the Bacchic choruses of the Greeks with their prehistory in Asia Minor, as far back as Babylon and the orgiastic Sacaea. There are some who, from obtuseness or lack of experience, turn away from such phenomena as from "folk diseases", with contempt or pity born of the consciousness of their own "healthy-mindedness." But of course such poor wretches have no idea how corpselike and ghostly their so-called "Healthy-mindedness" looks when the glowing life of the Dionysian revelers roars past them.

Under the charm of the Dionysian not only is the union between man and man reaffirmed, but nature which has become alienated, hostile, or subjegated, celebrates once more her reconciliation with her lost son, man. Freely, earth proffers her gifts, and peacefully the beasts of prey of the rocks and desert approach. The chariot of Dionysus is covered with flowers and garlands; panthers and tigers walk under its yoke. Transform Beethoven's "Hymn to Joy" into a painting; let your imagination conveive the multitudes bowing to the dust awestruck - then you will approach the Dionysian. Now the slave is a free man; now all the rigid, hostile barriers that necessity, caprice, or "impudent convention" have fixed between man and man are broken. Now, with the gospel of universal harmony, each one feels himself not only united, reconciled, and fused with his neighbor, but as one with him, as if the veil of maya had been torn aside and were now merely fluttering in tatters before the mysterious primordial unity.

In song and in dance man expresses himself as a member of a higher community; he has forgotten how to walk and speak and is on the way toward flying into the air, dancing. His very gestures express enchangtment. Just as the animals now talk and the earth yields milk and honey, supernatural sounds emanate from him too: he feels himself a god, he himself now walks about enchanted, in ecstasy, like the gods he saw walking in his dreams. He is no longer an artist, he has become a work of art: in these paroxysms of intoxication the artistic power of all nature reveals itself to the highest gratification of the primordial unity. The noblest clay, the most costly marble, man is here kneaded and cut, and to the sound of the chisel strokes of the Dionysian world-artist rings out the cry of the Eleusinian mysteries: "Do you prostrate yourselfs millions? Do you sense your Maker, world?" (Quotation from Schiller's hymn)




(click)

Nietzsche's preface to "The Gay Science":




Edited by daytripper23 (12/19/09 01:26 AM)


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: daytripper23]
    #11678442 - 12/19/09 01:16 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

By the way, if you want to just chime in by saying you're interested to read without generating any thoughts yet, that's fine.

On the other hand these are the opening passages though, so you can always start here.


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: daytripper23]
    #11680137 - 12/19/09 01:03 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I'm interested and will follow any posts. Maybe we can do it via PM with multiple recipients. I might not be that active though I've got other reading plans for the next few weeks, but I know those texts by Nietzsche well.


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InvisibleMnboardin
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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11680765 - 12/19/09 03:17 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I am very interested as well.

THe Birth of Tragedy is a favorite of mine.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: Mnboardin]
    #11681004 - 12/19/09 04:05 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Glad to hear it guys, this way I won't be delving in with only a speculative mind.

Lakefingers, I was hoping you'd be on board.

Mnboardin, Welcome.

And yea, anyone's welcome, the formal introduction was just to assure for clarities sake that we are all on the same page.


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: daytripper23]
    #11681424 - 12/19/09 05:14 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

That excerpt from "The Birth of Tragedy" was pretty interesting, I haven't read that yet, will get to it here someday soon.

I will def pay attention to this thread


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: andrewss]
    #11681519 - 12/19/09 05:31 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

:bongload:

be back in a little while


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: daytripper23]
    #11681552 - 12/19/09 05:36 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Excellent idea.


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11682888 - 12/19/09 09:49 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

im actually reading birth of tragedy right now.


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: aghorrorag]
    #11683513 - 12/19/09 11:57 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)



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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: Freedom]
    #11684032 - 12/20/09 02:08 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:





  You owe me a burger, I just vomited my dinner.


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: aghorrorag]
    #11684106 - 12/20/09 02:39 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

:bonghit:


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: andrewss]
    #11684516 - 12/20/09 06:40 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I think bongs are ugly pieces of shit. I'm not sure which is worse: porcelain, smiling cats on a living room table, or a fluorescent bong.


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11685993 - 12/20/09 02:23 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

not all bongs are equal dammit

granted I dont have a bong anymore... just a lil triple chamber bubbler...... yeahhhhh


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: andrewss]
    #11686863 - 12/20/09 04:54 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

bongs are functional...

you can use them as a vase.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: daytripper23]
    #11687043 - 12/20/09 05:28 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Ok well, I am not quite ready to cut off this pretext -

How about we hear it from Nietzsche himself, from his "self criticism"?

Quote:

Let me say again: today for me it is an impossible book—I call it something poorly written, ponderous, embarrassing, with fantastic and confused imagery, sentimental, here and there so saccharine it is effeminate, uneven in tempo, without any impulse for logical clarity, extremely self-confident and thus dispensing with evidence, even distrustful of the relevance of evidence, like a book for the initiated, like “Music” for those baptized into music, those who are bound together from the start in secret and esoteric aesthetic experiences as a secret sign recognized among blood relations in artibus [in the arts]—an arrogant and rhapsodic book, which right from the start hermetically sealed itself off from the profanum vulgus [profane rabble] of the “educated,” even more than from the “people,” but a book which, as its effect proved and continues to prove, must also understand this issue well enough to search out its fellow rhapsodists and to tempt them to new secret pathways and dancing grounds.


 

And yet, we still listen...If anything, listen closer!

Quote:


At any rate, here a strange voice spoke—people admitted that with as much curiosity as aversion—the disciple of an as yet “unknown God,” who momentarily hid himself under the hood of a learned man, under the gravity and dialectical solemnity of the German man, even under the bad manners of a follower of Wagner. Here was a spirit with alien, even nameless, needs, a memory crammed with questions, experiences, secret places, beside which the name Dionysus was written like one more question mark. Here spoke—so people said to themselves suspiciously—something like a mystic and an almost maenad-like soul, which stammered with difficulty and arbitrarily, in a foreign language, as it were, almost uncertain whether it wanted to communicate something or hide itself.* This “new soul” should have sung, not spoken! What a shame that I did not dare to utter as a poet what I had to say at that time; perhaps I might have been able to do that! Or at least as a philologist —even today in this area almost everything is still there for philologists to discover and dig up! Above all, the issue that there is a problem  right here—and that the Greeks will continue to remain, as before, entirely unknown and unknowable as long as we have no answer to the question, “What is Dionysian?” . . .





Beautiful words, in retrospect. So then, perhaps a few of you may begin to wonder what the meaning of this extended and suggestive pre-text is?


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: daytripper23]
    #11693199 - 12/21/09 05:50 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

"Is this a prologue, or the posy of a ring?"

All I can do is lay a pretext. I've got problems with Nietzsche, and to that extent, they've revealed problems with my study of Heidegger. Maybe this has been a word of warning, if you have been steeped in Heidegger for 3 months at a time, don't jump into Nietzsche unless you want to go off like a bottle rocked.

For me, this drama has only unfolded so much as to "lay the ground" of problems with occidental Hermeneutics. This German obsession with a establishing a circle of interpretation; of human, nation, family, brotherhood, and (if none of those EGO...What an ego!) - are all founded in case of their ecstatic eruption.

Drama for its own sake? So it was with Nietzsche. But this was an interesting drama, if I can say so myself (No). There was insight, all mistaken. It works - it fails! Then, I saw the violence at the heart of it, spiraling from animal violence to the many shades of temporal human. There is an interplay between the two that Nietzsche and Heidegger touch on with both insight and violence.

I also saw my own German heritage (my Dad's side) in all its patriarchal exploitation - that has been oppressing but I cannot see from within. That is, I saw my own violence in concurrence to this heritage. These circles are karmic.

There's a lot that I specifically disagree with, but in doing so I would be "speaking Nietzsche" at best. It's the way the text is laid out, I think.

My impression of the Greeks according to Nietzsche:



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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: daytripper23]
    #11697759 - 12/22/09 11:28 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:

Drama for its own sake? So it was with Nietzsche. But this was an interesting drama, if I can say so myself (No). There was insight, all mistaken. It works - it fails! Then, I saw the violence at the heart of it, spiraling from animal violence to the many shades of temporal human. There is an interplay between the two that Nietzsche and Heidegger touch on with both insight and violence.

I also saw my own German heritage (my Dad's side) in all its patriarchal exploitation - that has been oppressing but I cannot see from within. That is, I saw my own violence in concurrence to this heritage. These circles are karmic.

There's a lot that I specifically disagree with, but in doing so I would be "speaking Nietzsche" at best. It's the way the text is laid out, I think.





Eh? Explain yo seff


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: andrewss]
    #11698306 - 12/22/09 01:28 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

His genealogy of the Dionysian is blurred and imprecise: "Intoxication with fog", so he says himself in "self-criticism".

But that to me is the heart of the matter, not merely a detail. He works from there, and what he lacks in lucidity becomes the heart of his art and philosophy. His birth of tragedy from egotism - a real soliloquy, so called "Drama in itself". He stumbles into nihilism in bitter, drunken buffoonery.


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: daytripper23]
    #11699034 - 12/22/09 03:32 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

He stumbles into nihilism? A lot of his philosophy is an attempt to be honest but yet do battle with nihilism...

Is it because he himself was apparently "making" drama with his own misgivings directed at his his own ascetic like life style - that you say he was committing drunken buffoonery? His sort of back and forth critique probably reveal some insatiable drive in the psyche, perhaps further related to his sometimes "brutal" psychological observations though they contrasted to what we know about his domesticated life.


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: andrewss]
    #11700509 - 12/22/09 06:49 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Intoxication does not create vices. It merely brings them into sight. - Seneca


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: andrewss]
    #11700567 - 12/22/09 06:54 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Stumbles, yes, that's what I think. Nietzsche will at times speak lucidly of an "ecstasy" by dissolution of the self, but other times he speaks of a practical nihilism, in the "ecstatic" (violent) irruptions of ego. These are two completely different notions, but with a single face:

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/d/dionysus.html

Quote:

Dionysus, also commonly known by his Roman name Bacchus, appears to be a god who has two distinct origins. On the one hand, Dionysus was the god of wine, agriculture, and fertility of nature, who is also the patron god of the Greek stage. On the other hand, Dionysus also represents the outstanding features of mystery religions, such as those practiced at Eleusis: ecstasy, personal delivery from the daily world through physical or spiritual intoxication, and initiation into secret rites. Scholars have long suspected that the god known as Dionysus is in fact a fusion of a local Greek nature god, and another more potent god imported rather late in Greek pre-history from Phrygia (the central area of modern day Turkey) or Thrace.




At the heart of his confusion, he mistakes the substantial roots of Dionysus as "narcotic" (Kauffman, 36) - from Gk. narkotikon, neut. of narkotikos "making stiff or numb, which is fundamentally opposed, but at the same time ritually consistent with his allusion to ecstasy, notably in dance (and as much, I would speculate, the Eleusian mysteries.)

In his self criticism he acknowledges the same mistake: "It has the double quality of a narcotic that both intoxicates and spreads a fog." (25, Kauffman) Rather ingeniously, Nietzsche reveals the mistake at hand, but still positively (doubling), or speaking from the perspective of fogginess. He cannot reconcile the fog from intoxication. So he retains his way of thinking, even if he has now sobered up.

But this does provide a hint.

A narcotic substance is what it is, and does not have a "double quality". But one might imagine that it does, if it were a misapplication and corruption of a certain ideal. Nietzsche was left positively speculating to this, but on top of his slate (so to speak, the space denoted by the fog) - even after he realized his mistake.

I would split the Dionysian of Nietzsche's narcotic irruptions of ecstacy, from its opposite, the ostensible drama (as we are here speaking) of self dissolution. He speaks about both, but the problematically, the former sets the standard.


Edited by daytripper23 (12/22/09 08:46 PM)


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: daytripper23]
    #11701481 - 12/22/09 08:43 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

mmmmm hmmmm

Here is an opening section to a part of The Gay Science (forget which)... I like it

Quote:

To the Realists… You sober people who feel well armed against passion and fantasies and would like to turn your emptiness into a matter of pride and an ornament: you call yourselves realists and hint that the world really is the way it appears to you. As if reality stood unveiled before you only, and you yourselves were perhaps the best part of it – O you beloved images of Sais! But in your unveiled state are not even you still very passionate and dark creatures compared to fish, and still far too similar to an artist in love? And what is “reality” for an artist in love? You are still burdened with those estimates of things that have their origin in the passions and loves of former centuries. Your sobriety still contains a secret and inextinguishable drunkenness. Your love of “reality,” for example – oh, that is a primeval “love.” Every feeling and sensation contains a piece of this old love; and some fantasy, some prejudice, some unreason, some ignorance, some fear, and ever so much else has contributed to it and worked on it. That mountain there! That cloud there! What is “real” in that? Subtract the phantasm and every human contribution from it, my sober friends! If you can! If you can forget your descent, your past, your training – all of your humanity and animality. There is no “reality” for us – not for you either, my sober friends. We are not nearly as different as you think, and perhaps our good will to transcend intoxication is as respectable as your faith that you are altogether incapable of intoxication.




Here is one from Human, All Too Human

Quote:

Drunk with the odour of blossoms. - The ship of mankind has, one believes, a deeper and deeper draught the more heavily it is laden; one believes that the more profoundly a man thinks, the more tenderly he feels, the more highly he rates himself, the greater the distance grows between him and the other animals - the more he appears as the genius among animals - the closer he will get to the true nature of the world and to a knowledge of it: this he does in fact do through science, but he thinks he does so even more through his arts and religions. These are, to be sure, a blossom of the world, but they are certainly not closer to the roots of the world than the stem is: they provide us with no better understanding of the nature of things at all, although almost everyone believes they do. It is error that has made mankind so profound, tender, inventive as to produce such a flower as the arts and religions. Pure knowledge would have been incapable of it. Anyone who unveiled to us the nature of the world would produce for all of us the most unpleasant disappointment. It is not the world as thing in itself, it is the world as idea (as error) that is so full of significance, profound, marvelous, and bearing in its womb all happiness and unhappiness. This consequence leads to a philosophy of logical world-denial: which can, however, be united with a practical world affirmation just as easily as with its opposite.




/pondering :chugbeer:


although these dont really relate to the Dionysian discussion, pardon me... well at least with much direct connection...


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: daytripper23]
    #11701738 - 12/22/09 09:10 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

"It has the double quality of a narcotic that both intoxicates and spreads a fog."

He is referring to German music, which, as he is pointing out in this section , isn't Dyonisian.

Here is the full statement from Ronald Speirs' translation-

"Since then I have indeed learned to think hopelessly and unsparingly enough about this "German character", and the same applies to current German music, which is Romanticism through and through and the most un-Greak of all possible forms of art; furthermore, as a ruiner of nerves it is in the first ran, a doubly dangerous thing amongst a people who love drink and who honor obscurity as a virtue, particularly for its dual properties as a narcotic which both intoxicates and befogs the mind."

I don't think its worth getting caught up on what the translator's use of the word narcotic. I mean people refer to psychedelics with the word narcotic, but anyone who has some experience with psychedelics knows that they are not narcotic. To my mind the Dionysian, as presented in The Birth of Tragedy, is very psychedleic.



"Nietzsche will at times speak lucidly of an "ecstasy" by dissolution of the self, but other times he speaks of a practical nihilism, in the "ecstatic" (violent) irruptions of ego. These are two completely different notions, but with a single face:"

Interesting... Would you elaborate on this?


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Edited by Mnboardin (12/22/09 09:19 PM)


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: andrewss]
    #11701818 - 12/22/09 09:22 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Hmm yeah, this first one seems to be another involution of his concern. He is still speaking "from fogginess", but admits that it is still a practical matter. That is to say, there is no longer an indulgence, or any hands on equipment at this point. The fogginess has become entirely a burdensome - condensed, so it seems he swimming in it. It seems to me that Nietzsche slowly forgot the Dionysian ideal under a blunted standard of intoxication.


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: daytripper23]
    #11701893 - 12/22/09 09:33 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
It seems to me that Nietzsche slowly forgot the Dionysian ideal under a blunted standard of intoxication.




Say more about that... I dunno, I am failing to see what exactly you are critiquing.

Forgot the Dionysian ideal? What is the proper ideal?

Remember his like for creativity and perhaps we could say this is by fusion of many elements... how exactly contradictions might play into this, I dont know, maybe a sense of humor?


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: daytripper23]
    #11701970 - 12/22/09 09:43 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Hmm yeah, this first one seems to be another involution of his concern. He is still speaking "from fogginess", but admits that it is still a practical matter. That is to say, there is no longer an indulgence, or any hands on equipment at this point. The fogginess has become entirely a burdensome - condensed, so it seems he swimming in it. It seems to me that Nietzsche slowly forgot the Dionysian ideal under a blunted standard of intoxication.




His Dionysian ideal comes back though, with a slightly different application. Check out what he has to say about it in The Will to Power-

"The two types: Dionysus and the Crucified. To determine whether the typical religious man is a form of decadence ( the great innovators are one and all morbid and epileptic); but are we not here omitting one type of religious man, the pagan? Is the pagan cult nor a form of thanksgiving and affirmation of life? Must its highest representative not be an apology for and deification of life? The type of a well-constituted and ecstatically over-flowing spirit! The type of a spirit that takes into itself and redeems the contradictions and questionable aspects of existence?

It is here I set the Dionysus of the Greeeks: the religious affirmation of life, life whole and not denied in part; (typical that the sexual act arouses profundity, mystery, reverence).

Dionysus versus the "Crucified": there you have the antithesis. It is not a difference in regard to their martyrdom-it is a difference in the meaning of it. Life itself, its eternal fruitfulness and recurrence, creates torment, destruction, the will to annihilation. In the other case, suffering-the "Crucified as the innocent one"-counts as an objection to life, as a formula for its condemnation. One will see that the problem is that of the meaning of suffering: whether a Christian meaning or a tragic meaning. In the former case, it is supposed to be the path to a holy existence; in the later case, being is counted as holy enough to justify even a monstrous amount of suffering. The tragic man affirms even the harshest suffering: he is sufficiently strong, rich, and capable of deifying to do so. The Christian denies even the happiest lot on earth: he is sufficiently weak, poor, disinherited to suffer from life in whatever form he meets it. The god on the cross is a curse on life, a signpost to seek redemption from life; Dionysian cut to pieces is a promise of life: it will be eternally reborn and return again from destruction."- from kaufmann's translation, section 1052

Anyway, I know you only wanted to focus on the birth of tragedy and the gay science and "intoxication", but uses the experience of intoxication to "...gain a closer understanding..." of the dionysian, as he defines it in that book. Intoxication is used as an analogy for the dionysian, but it isn't it entirely. So I think it would be better to focus on his concept of the Dionysian.


Edited by Mnboardin (12/22/09 09:53 PM)


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: andrewss]
    #11702014 - 12/22/09 09:49 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

andrewss said:
Quote:

daytripper23 said:
It seems to me that Nietzsche slowly forgot the Dionysian ideal under a blunted standard of intoxication.




Say more about that... I dunno, I am failing to see what exactly you are critiquing.

Forgot the Dionysian ideal? What is the proper ideal?

Remember his like for creativity and perhaps we could say this is by fusion of many elements... how exactly contradictions might play into this, I dont know, maybe a sense of humor?




The Dionysain ideal is "...the highest affirmation born out of fullness, out of overfullness, an unreserved yea-saying even to suffereing, even to guilt, even to everything questionable and strange about existence..." (Ecce Homo section 3 of the birth of tragedy) ...and its a insightful section. I'm tempted to post the whole thing.


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Edited by Mnboardin (12/22/09 09:52 PM)


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: Mnboardin]
    #11702534 - 12/22/09 11:01 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Part 1:

Quote:

Mnboardin said:
"It has the double quality of a narcotic that both intoxicates and spreads a fog."

He is referring to German music, which, as he is pointing out in this section , isn't Dyonisian.





Are you sure that he's not? Heres the full statement that goes a little more than what you posted. Its from some other translation, but it will suffice to demonstrate my point:

Quote:

Do people understand the nature of the task I dared to touch on back then with this book? . . . How much I now regret the fact that at the time I did not yet have the courage (or the presumptuousness?) to allow myself in every respect a personal language for such an individual  point of view and such daring exploits—that I sought labouriously to express strange new evaluations with formulas from Schopenhauer and Kant, something which basically went quite against the spirit of Kant and Schopenhauer, as well as against their tastes!* What then did Schopenhauer think about tragedy? He says, “What gives everything tragic its characteristic drive for elevation is the working out of the recognition that the world, that life, can provide no proper satisfaction, and thus our devotion to it is not worthwhile; the tragic spirit consists of that insight—it leads therefore to resignation” (The World as Will and Idea, II,3,37). O how differently Dionysus spoke to me! O how far from me then was precisely this whole doctrine of resignation! But there is something much worse about my book, something which I now regret even more than to have obscured and spoiled Dionysian premonitions with formulas from Schopenhauer: namely, that I generally ruined for myself the magnificent problem of the Greeks, as it arose in me, by mixing it up with the most modern issues! I regret that I tied myself to hopes where there was nothing to hope for, where everything indicated all too clearly an end point! That, on the basis of the most recent German music, I began to tell stories of the “German character,” as if that character might be just about to discover itself, to find itself again—and that at a time when the German spirit, which not so long before still had the desire to rule Europe and the power to assume leadership of Europe, was, as its final testament, simply abdicating forever and, beneath the ostentatious pretext of founding an empire, making the transition to a conciliatory moderation, to democracy and “modern ideas”! As a matter of fact, in the intervening years I have learned to think of that “German character” with a sufficient lack of hope and of mercy—similarly with contemporary German music, which is Romantic through and through and the most un-Greek of all possible art forms, and besides that, a first-rate corrupter of the nerves, doubly dangerous among a people who love drink and esteem lack of clarity as a virtue, because that has the dual character of a drug which simultaneously intoxicates and befuddles the mind.—Of course, set apart from all the rash hopes and defective practical applications to present times with which I then spoiled my first book for myself, the great Dionysian question mark still remains as it is set out there, also in relation to music: How would one have to create a music which is no longer Romantic in origin, like the German—but Dionysian?





What we can see here is that there were many levels of arising to arrive at this "german character", and his present criticism of it. So I'd say your correct that here he is saying its not Dionysian, but that criticism is of his previous ideal that was mistaken:

So isn't he is referring to his youthful, idealistic notions of German music, which at the time, were arising from this potent kernal of Dionysus? Precisely so that even then, when he says this "music is intoxicating!" he wouldn't be speaking directly "of Dionysus himself", but indirectly, in his manner of idealistic criticism - of the Greeks, and significant to this work (and as it remains as he closes this section), of a certain Greek ideal that is Dionysus.

You've picked up that I am further tracing this "obscured" face of Dionysus to his own kernal that is substance. I would think that this root is necessary insomuch that it is specifically intoxicating. Further it substantiates and distinguishes the two historic faces of Dionysus - one rooted in the Elusian mysteries, and the later "corruption", or so I tend to think...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysian_Mysteries

About "narcotic" Ive checked a few english translations, and they all show "narcotic" which is derived from Greek. I assumed that this would probably pan over from original German, but I could be wrong with this assumption. Maybe Lakefingers can clarify this.

I will elaborate further, just trying to keep things tidy, and hopefully open.


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: Mnboardin]
    #11702831 - 12/22/09 11:36 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

This is very good by the way, I just wanted to stay close to some text, while having a certain focus in mind.

I'm glad to see birth of tragedy eclipsed, this seems necessary even. I was about to chuck the book two nights ago, but seeing his later writings I am going to keep reading

BTW his self criticism is pretty incredible, it really bit into me actually.

Heh, I've actually got a story to tell about this book, maybe later though, if I need to clarify any more emotional outbursts on my part.  :burnbabyburn:



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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: daytripper23]
    #11703578 - 12/23/09 01:58 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I wonder if he picks on Schopenhauer's concept of the tragic because it embodied a bit of that nauseating nihilistic realization that he might have felt deep down, the yes saying aspect of the Dionysian and that elation have a relation to the route of perhaps producing an orgy of strange feeling to awake and envigorate the mind set into a joy with life. Yes but at the very bottom one is hyper conscious enough feel a little dread in the Schopenhauerian admission...

Though it might tie into the seemingly "sadistic" fixation on honesty and self betrayal so as to be able to "feel" that he talks about in his Genealogy, perhaps he was himself suffering of the ascetic type of deal - refer to the ending sections of The Genealogy Of Morality's 3rd treatise for some context... I'll try to come up with something later on if I think this train of thought is worthwhile :gethigh:

i think it is interesting to speculate about how he actually lived... no matter what one concludes about much of his thought, his life is pretty mysterious and interesting (because of all the self drama and madness). How he fell into a stupor is so interesting, not many people like him :lol: - and nobody can say for sure what it was.

Karl Jasper's information about his "demise" is pretty interesting... ok enuf :chugbeer:


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: andrewss]
    #11704898 - 12/23/09 11:10 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I'm actually hoping to get a biography about Nietzsche from santa, just to gain a new perspective on his philosophy.

I know that he was sick, and very lonely. A lot of his philosophy may have been the result of his attempt to think his way out of his the terrible feelings he was feeling; especially his concept of the Dionysian...

Anyway, I'll write more later. It's too early in the morning for this kind of stuff...


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: daytripper23]
    #11715603 - 12/25/09 06:11 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

andrewss said:
not all bongs are equal dammit

granted I dont have a bong anymore... just a lil triple chamber bubbler...... yeahhhhh




No need to discriminate. All bongs were created equal.


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11715615 - 12/25/09 06:22 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Will and wave.-- How greedily this wave approaches, as if it were after something! How it crawls
with terrifying haste into the inmost nooks of this laybrinthine cliff! It seems that it is trying to anticipate
someone; it seems that something of value, high value, must be hidden there.---And now it comes back, a little
more slowly but still quite white with excitement; is it disappointed? Has it found what it looked for? Does it
pretend to be disappointed?--But already another wave is approaching, still more greedily and savagely than the first,
and its soul, too, seems to be full of secrets and the lust to dig up treasures. Thus live waves--thus live we who
will--more I shall not say.
    So? You mistrust me? You are angry with me, you beautiful monsters? Are you afraid that I might give away
your whole secret? Well, be angry with me, arch your dangerous green bodies as high as you can, raise a wall
between me and the sun--as you are doing now! Truly, even now nothing remains of the world but green twilight
and green lightning. Carry on as you like, roaring with overweening pleasure and malice--or dive again, pouring
your emeralds down into the deepest depths, and throw your infinite white mane of foam and spray over them:
Everything suits me, for everything suits you so well, and I am so well-disposed toward you for everything; how could I
think of betraying you? For--mark my word!--I know you and your secret, I know your kind! You and I--are we not of one
kind?--You and I--do we not have one secret?




The Gay Science, Kaufmann translation §310.


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11716852 - 12/25/09 02:53 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Is that guy full up in himself or what?:monkeydance:


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11716910 - 12/25/09 03:12 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Quote:

Will and wave.-- How greedily this wave approaches, as if it were after something" How it crawls
with terrifying haste into the inmost nooks of this laybrinthine cliff! It seems that it is trying to anticipate
someone; it seems that something of value, high value, must be hidden there.---And now it comes back, a little
more slowly but still quite white with excitement; is it disappointed? Has it found what it looked for? Does it
pretend to be disappointed?--But already another wave is approaching, still more greedily and savagely than the first,
and its soul, too, seems to be full of secrets and the lust to dig up treasures. Thus live waves--thus live we who
will--more I shall not say.
    So? You mistrust me? You are angry with me, you beautiful monsters? Are you afraid that I might give away
your whole secret? Well, be angry with me, arch your dangerous green bodies as high as you can, raise a wall
between me and the sun--as you are doing now! Truly, even now nothing remains of the world but green twilight
and green lightning. Carry on as you like, roaring with overweening pleasure and malice--or dive again, pouring
your emeralds down into the deepest depths, and throw your infinite white mane of foam and spray over them:
Everything suits me, for everything suits you so well, and I am so well-disposed toward you for everything; how could I
think of betraying you? For--mark my word!--I know you and your secret, I know your kind! You and I--are we not of one
kind?--You and I--do we not have one secret?




The Gay Science, Kaufmann translation §310.




Hmmmm...

Not sure I remember that one. One secret?


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11717610 - 12/25/09 06:45 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

:fishing:
:smirk:


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: daytripper23]
    #11717837 - 12/25/09 07:44 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

:cheers:


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: andrewss]
    #11718054 - 12/25/09 08:53 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

One ocean I think,
A secret, or preferred drink?
:bongload:
samtsirhc yrrem


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: Icelander]
    #11720155 - 12/26/09 07:44 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Is that guy full up in himself or what?:monkeydance:




Like totally d00d.


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: andrewss]
    #11720192 - 12/26/09 08:03 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

andrewss said:

Hmmmm...

Not sure I remember that one. One secret?




Perhaps it's will, perhaps it's intoxication with the Dionysian, perhaps it's a message about interpretation regarding his books which are 'for all and none' - for 'the wanderer and his shadow', perhaps it's the key to the 'Gay Science' itself, the "joyful sophia", or?

About the light mentioned in 310: 311 is entitled "Refracted Light" (Gebrochenes Licht).


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11722357 - 12/26/09 07:37 PM (12 years, 30 days ago)

I just liked the prosey poetry of it I wasnt sure it was trying to say all that much, sometimes he just throws in simple things highlighted by a lot of good words. A reason why I read him.

I'll take a gander at that section in a bit...

Edit:


I re read the Will and Wave section, Kaufmann, has a lot to say about it... here is some of what he interprets:

Quote:

What he shares with the waves is the overflowing vitality that never comes to a stop - not because it has failed to find what it was looking for but because this constant play is its life. A critic might object: How can one speak of Nietzsche's overflowing vitality when he was sick and in pain much of the time? But neither his doctors' advice to save his half-blind eyes by giving up reading and writing nor his migraine headaches and other torments stopped him...

... These reflections are relevant to Nietzsche's conception of the eternal recurrence of the same events, which is first presented in this book. The absence of all purpose and meaning, to which one's first reaction may well be nausea or despair, can be experienced as liberating and delightful in what Nietzsche later calls a "Dionysian" persepctive.




:strokebeard:


I really liked 311 "Refracted Light" - I remember really liking it when I first read "The Gay Science" ... I gotta post it...


Quote:

Refracted Light.- One is not always bold and when one grows tired then one of us, too, is aprt to moan like this: It is so hard to hurt people - oh, why is it necessary! What does it profit us to live in seculusion when we refuse to keep to ourselves what gives offense? Would it not be more advisable to live in the swarm and to make up to individuals the sins that should and must be committed against all? To be foolish with fools, vain with the vain, and enthusiastic with enthusiasts? Wouldn't that be fair, given such overweening deviation on the whole? When I hear of malice of others against me - isn't my first reaction one of satisfaction? Quite right! I seem to be saying to them - I am so ill-attuned to you and have so much truth on my side that you might as well have a good day at my expense whenever you can! Here are my faults and blunders, here my delusion, my bad taste, my confusion, my tears, my vanity, my owlish seclusion, my contradictions. Here you can laugh. Laugh, then, and be merry! I do not resent the law and nature of things according to which faults and blunders cause merriment.

"To be sure, times used to be more 'beautiful' when anyone with a halfway new idea could still feel so indispensible that he would go out into the street and shout at everyone: 'Behold, the kingdom of heaven is at hand!' - I should not miss myself if I were not there. All of us are dispensable."

But, to repeat it, that is not how we think when we are bold; then we don't think of this.




Kaufmann throws this in from a letter from Nietzsche to Gast:

Quote:

"... To this day, my whole philosophy totters after an hour's sympathetic conversation with total strangers: it seems so foolish to me to wish to be right at the price of love, and not be able to communicate what one considers most valuable lest one destroy the sympathy. Hinc meae lacrimae [hence my tears]."




:thumbup:

:chugbeer:





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Edited by andrewss (12/26/09 08:31 PM)


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: andrewss]
    #11724208 - 12/27/09 03:44 AM (12 years, 30 days ago)

:fishing:


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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: andrewss]
    #11729783 - 12/28/09 04:55 AM (12 years, 29 days ago)

From The Will To Power

Quote:

"Apollo's Deception": the eternity of beautiful form; the aristocratic legislation, "thus shall it be for ever!"

Dionysus: sensuality and cruelty. Transitoriness could be interpreted as enjoyment of productive and destructive force, as continual creation.






Quote:

My first solution: Dionysian wisdom. joy in the destruction of the most noble and at the sight of its progressive ruin: in reality joy in what is coming and lies in the future, which trumphs over existing things, however good. Dionysian: temporary identification with the prinicple of life (including the voluptuousness of the martyr).

My innovations.- Further development of pessimism: intellectual pessimism; critique of morality, disintegration of the last consolation. Knowledge of the signs of decay: veils with illusion every firm action; culture isolates, is unjust and therefor strong.

1. My endeavor to oppose decay and increasing weakness of personality. I sought a new center.
2. Impossibility of this endeavor recognized.
3. Thereupon I advanced further down the road of disintegration - where I found new sources of strength for individuals. We have to be destroyers! --- I perceived that the state of disintegration, in which individual natures can perfect themselves as never before - is an image and isolated example of existence in general. To the paralyzing sense of general disintegration and incompleteness I oppose the eternal recurrence.




Quote:

One seeks a picture of the world in that philosophy in which we fee freest; ie, in which our most powerful drive feels free to function. This will also be the case with me!




:fishing:


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Edited by andrewss (12/28/09 05:04 AM)


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Winter reading: Nietzsche; intoxication, ecstacy... [Re: andrewss]
    #11750701 - 01/02/10 01:41 AM (12 years, 24 days ago)

So I didn't want to leave Andrewss to go fish...

I've been thinking quite a bit about the last section Lakefingers posted, but it seems to speak well for itself. As appropriate as it is though, I was thinking; can we close on such an abstract, or symbolic wave though? Nobody shared any music.

Enjoyed the discussion very much :bongload:


Edited by daytripper23 (01/02/10 02:25 AM)


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