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 Skikid16
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 Reasons for war. 
#1166800 - 12/24/02 06:35 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ok, now I'm gonna admit something, and its gonna be hard, so bare with me, I still am having trouble finding a concrete reason or reasons for Bush wanting to go to war with Iraq. I mean I've heard his reasons (regime change, disarmament, war on terrorism, etc. etc. etc.) But I'd like to hear all of your ideas.
A couple rules (if you will, please, thanks)
1) No flaming, if someone has an idea different from you, that's fine, this isn't "See-who's-right" thread, this is your personal opinions why we are going to war.
2) No flaming.
3) No flaming
4) I'd like to see some proof behind your reasons, not just blind patriotism, nor blind protest.
Thanks for playing, and I am very interested, lets try to make this thread informative and not just a dick measuring contest.
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Re-Defeat Bush in '04
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pattern
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Re: Reasons for war. [Re: Skikid16]
#1167010 - 12/24/02 07:55 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Bush yearns for the fun days of WWII where there was a concrete enemy that the whole nation rallied against and felt a universal justice in fighting. He thought Iraq was such an enemy but he miscalculated. Now Bush is pissed off and cant wait until the bombs rain over the Middle East. Whats the point of being in command of the biggest army in the world, if that army is doing boring shit like "peacekeeping". He wants a good old-fashioned fight!
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man = monkey + mushroom
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 Xlea321
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Re: Reasons for war. [Re: Skikid16]
#1167030 - 12/24/02 08:00 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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1. The country needs "threats" to justify it's enormous defence budget ("Defence" in the sense of pissing away billions of taxpayers money to arms companies and hi-tech industry rather than spending it on nasty things like healthcare and infrastructure)
2. Oil
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Skikid16
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Re: Reasons for war. [Re: pattern]
#1167031 - 12/24/02 08:00 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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I like the thought, but I hope its not the truth.  I'd hate to think there will be deaths in order for the US to relieve their boredom.
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Re-Defeat Bush in '04
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carbonhoots
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 Re: Reasons for war. [Re: Skikid16]
#1167086 - 12/24/02 08:11 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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OK
The reason is this...OIL. Oil for the american nation, and wealth for those (like bush) who will sell it and become richer.
OK?
Yes there is some validity to the arms industry lobbying too.
It is NOT. I repeat NOT about security from terrorism, or global security from WMD.
If you don't know this, I'm afraid you have some to learn about the way the world works. What makes the wheels of history turn...
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-I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me
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Humidity
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#1 Most definately OIL. No doubt about it!
#2 War is good for the economy. Mostly helps the rich get richer, but also help create jobs for the peons like u and me.
#3 Bushie Boy wants to finish what his Daddy started.
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"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
Edited by Humidity (12/24/02 08:48 AM)
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Buddha5254
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Re: Reasons for war. [Re: Humidity]
#1167459 - 12/24/02 09:57 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Reasons against:
1. I am against going to war for oil
2. Saddam is not a threat worthy of invasion.
3. Other countries pose a bigger "threat" by their definition, such as N. Korea.
4. It shifts our attention away from someone who has attacked us and vows every few weeks that it will happen again.
5. It will serve to fuel the fire of hatrid towards America.
6. It will be seen as an attack on Islam (whether it is or not)
7. When he is attacked, he will most certainly use WMD, against our troops, and Bush has said our response could be nuclear, and thus against the general population of Iraq.
8.When he is attacked he will try to bring Israel into it, probably with success judging by the past reactions of Sharon
9. Just a big fucking mess will result, with our friends in the military occupying until a stable government could be set up that favors american business interests.
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frogsheath
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It's about security for U.S. and other industrialized (or emerging industrial) nations. We all need the oil. They (the Middle-East) need our money too. We are targeting the "rogue nations" for regime change so that the Mid-East is more secure for our (and the friendly regime's) interests. It's the continuation of the "New World Order". Iraq is a rogue state because of Hussein. He poses a big enough threat to the region to be a target. I wish it weren't so but we and our allies are VERY dependent on oil. We can't afford to stay out of the Mid-East.
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pattern
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Re: Reasons for war. [Re: frogsheath]
#1168460 - 12/24/02 06:14 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thats an interesting point. The US war machine, thirsty for its lifeblood of oil, has to go to war. Its simply driven mad from temptation. All that oil just sitting there... why not go take it... so what some muslims get pissed off... they cant do anything about it, right?
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man = monkey + mushroom
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Skikid16
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Re: Reasons for war. [Re: Skikid16]
#1171077 - 12/26/02 07:34 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ok, so far, oil is a very popular reason, but it seems like there would be easier ways to get oil than starting a war that could have some very serious implications. I may be completely wrong, but aren't there easier ways to get oil, like buying it, or why don't we just invade Venezuela (ok,ok, I'm just joking on that one). I hope you guys aren't right.
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Re-Defeat Bush in '04
Edited by Skikid16 (12/26/02 07:57 AM)
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Evolving
Resident Cynic
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Re: Reasons for war. [Re: Skikid16]
#1171081 - 12/26/02 07:37 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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In reply to:
aren't there easier ways to get oil
Yes, but the lives of little brown people are less politically important than the disruption of a small portion of wildlife habitat in North America.
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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
 
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Re: Reasons for war. [Re: Skikid16]
#1171085 - 12/26/02 07:41 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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You aren't too far off with your invasion of Venezuela comment..,the U.S. has it's hands in that pot as well...
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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Phred
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Re: Reasons for war. [Re: Skikid16]
#1171116 - 12/26/02 08:04 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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it seems like there would be easier ways to get oil than starting a war that could have some very serious implications.
There are. Note that the US imports only about 12% of its oil from the Gulf region, and that it is has been able to get by just fine without any of Iraq's oil to speak of for over a decade now.
pinky
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Skikid16
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Re: Reasons for war. [Re: Evolving]
#1171117 - 12/26/02 08:06 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yes, but the lives of little brown people are less politically important than the disruption of a small portion of wildlife habitat in North America.
Or maybe its our selfishness and ignorance that will not let us explore alternative sources of fuels (ie hybrid cars, etc.) that keeps our addiction to oil alive and well. Its a sad state of affairs. I'm going to do my part in protesting the war, I'm trading my truck for a bicycle.
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frogsheath
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Re: Reasons for war. [Re: Skikid16]
#1171133 - 12/26/02 08:19 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Even with conservation and alternative energy factored in the demand for oil will increase dramatically in the future. The Middle East has the largest reserves on the planet --60%. There are no easy alternatives to the pending energy crises.
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Anonymous
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Re: Reasons for war. [Re: Skikid16]
#1171147 - 12/26/02 08:33 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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I say its to divert attention on the fact that they're having trouble with the war on terror. Osama has seemingly disappeared, and I watch the news fairly often, and have only heard of a couple instances of terrorists being captured. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think progress has slowed dramatically, so Bush targets Iraq to shift the focus.
Oil, economic reasons, whatever. Bush probably feels like he has to push the 'patriotic fight for freedom' shit to keep it alive.
I dont think we should go to war tho. If they want a regime change, they should assassinate Sadam. Fuck that policy about not killing enemy leaders, too.
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Skikid16
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Re: Reasons for war. [Re: ]
#1171157 - 12/26/02 08:44 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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In reply to:
I dont think we should go to war tho. If they want a regime change, they should assassinate Sadam. Fuck that policy about not killing enemy leaders, too.
I think that would set a very scary precedent, not saying that the US hasn't assainated leaders before..........
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djamor
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Re: Reasons for war. [Re: Buddha5254]
#1171164 - 12/26/02 08:47 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm with you, Buddha. Those are damn good reasons for not going to war. Here's a few more;
1) 1.8 Trillion dollars of tax money (over a 10-year period- High estimate, admittedly, so let's be optimistic and say a trillion)!
2) I've heard no long-term plans for the region, so I assume there isn't one. We'll simply leave a vacuum of power and most likely have it blow up in our faces again in 10 years.
3) Unless someone uses WMD on the 'holy land', they'll still be fighting over it.
4) Killing is wrong. Killing innocent civilians who have been brainwashed against us is really wrong.
On the other hand, here's a few reasons to go to war;
1) Revenge, straight up! You mess with bull - you get the horns!
2) We need good themes for video games - Conflict; Desert Storm and Splinter Cell are good, but we need more!
3) Who cares?!! Jesus is coming soon, and I'm ready...the longer he takes to get here - the greater my chance of being led astray by the devil!
4) Who cares. What were we talking about? It's too much for me to think about, so I'll go smoke a bowl and play Vice City. Protesting isn't cool anymore, that and you might go to jail for it. We don't have the power, anyway, they do.
5) We are a suicidal culture, anyway, lets go out with a bang!
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Skikid16
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Re: Reasons for war. [Re: djamor]
#1171166 - 12/26/02 08:50 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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I love your pros for war. #2 is great.
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Re-Defeat Bush in '04
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Evolving
Resident Cynic
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Re: Reasons for war. [Re: Skikid16]
#1171185 - 12/26/02 09:06 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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In reply to:
In reply to:
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I dont think we should go to war tho. If they want a regime change, they should assassinate Sadam. Fuck that policy about not killing enemy leaders, too.
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I think that would set a very scary precedent, not saying that the US hasn't assainated leaders before..........
Is it better to bomb the hell out of the people who are under the thumb of a dictator and let the dictator continue to rule?
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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: Reasons for war. [Re: Evolving]
#1172751 - 12/26/02 09:00 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Is it better to bomb the hell out of the people who are under the thumb of a dictator and let the dictator continue to rule?
So why not bomb the hell out of saudi arabia? Or any of the scores of other US sponsored dictators on earth? Why did the US prop up Saddam throughout the 80's when his human rights abuses were far worse than anything he's done recently?
Incidentally, the Kuwaiti dictatorship that Saddam toppled wasn't going to win any human rights prizes - why was it a problem when Saddam got rid of them in 1990? He liberated the suffering people from a dictator didn't he?
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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djamor
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 Re: Reasons for war. [Re: Skikid16]
#1174451 - 12/27/02 10:06 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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bump...c'mon you doorknobs, you have an opinion...state it!
"Oh maybe if I close my eyes, all the bad things will just disappear!"
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Eric
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Re: Reasons for war. [Re: Skikid16]
#1175471 - 12/28/02 01:57 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Its pretty much certain that a war will happen with Iraq now, when that happens, it will be the duty of all working class people in the imperialist countries (US, Canada, Britain) to defend Iraq against imperialist attack, by means of class struggle. In order for the imperialists to wage war abroad, they demand class peace at home. The british firefighters strike, or the ILWU lockout in the US for example, show that the working class has the power to put a dent in the imperialists war effort. It is hypocritical that the US is concerned about Saddam's weapons of mass destruction (which they helped him develop in the first place) or about democracy (since when did the US care about democracy? Remember Pinochet? or CIA-backed Mujahadeen?). Only by means of a socialist revolution where the working class takes over control of the methods of production, will imperialist wars, which are inherient to the current capitalist system will be ended and thus would begin the process of workers rule, and towards the building of a socialist free world for the working people.
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Skikid16
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Re: Reasons for war. [Re: Eric]
#1175538 - 12/28/02 02:30 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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A class struggle, in America? Right..... have you seen some of the laws that the current administration has passed with out a peep from the population? What in the hell do you think will make the working class rise against the government? Only in dreams my friend, only in dreams......
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Eric
journeyman
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Re: Reasons for war. [Re: Skikid16]
#1175856 - 12/28/02 05:08 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well, class struggle is the only way to stop an imperialist war from happening. Its true that working class conciousness is so poisoned with patriotism and shit since 9-11. But class struggle does happen even in america. It is important for the working class to understand that any easy victory for the imperialist rulers abroad, strenthens their hand at home against workers, minorities...etc For example, after 9-11, when the new jersey teachers went on strike (forget which town) they defyed a back to work order, and were arrested, thrown in jail, and called terrorists, and compared to the taliban. The situation is imminently dangerous, esspecially with the recent mass arrests of thousands of arabs by the INS in the Bay area, this is only the beginning......there have been reported plans for the use of internment camp when war breaks out.......
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