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Offlinedrizzle7788
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question about ordering safely
    #11665060 - 12/16/09 10:42 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

i know the answer is probably right under my nose, but i cant seem to pinpoint it..
so, how safe is it to order substrate and spores from the same vendor, on the same order..
it would be a relatively small order, but i don't want to throw any red flags...

thanks guys.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: question about ordering safely [Re: drizzle7788]
    #11665841 - 12/17/09 01:08 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Its safe, but it would be safer to order them from separate vendors.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: question about ordering safely [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #11668084 - 12/17/09 02:32 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

It's not safe at all! 

Active's spores and growing supplies in the same package?

Are you retarded?  You might as well just turn yourself in to the local cop shop right now for intent to manufacture.

All the growing supplies you need can be had locally for half the cost.  Why would you order them?  It will be twice the cost, plus shipping on top of it.


-FF


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: question about ordering safely [Re: fastfred]
    #11668127 - 12/17/09 02:39 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Another point on this topic...  Business records are not constitutionally protected.  What that means is that if the government wants to see "business records", like what you purchased and your shipping address, they can get them without a warrant.  And yes, businesses are required to keep business records for tax purposes.

Even if your supplier doesn't want to cooperate or keeps shoddy records they can just go to the payment processor and get their records.

Nobody's going to go to jail or fight the IRS or whoever just to protect your ass.

Think about what you'll say to a judge or jury when the prosecutor produces a slip proving you ordered active spores AND the supplies to grow them at the same time.  Then they'll tell the jury you have no microscope and aren't any sort of scientist.

Still sound like a good idea?


-FF


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: question about ordering safely [Re: fastfred]
    #11668137 - 12/17/09 02:40 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Think about what you'll say to a judge or jury when the prosecutor produces a slip proving you ordered active spores AND the supplies to grow them at the same time.  Then they'll tell the jury you have no microscope and aren't any sort of scientist.





While that is theoretically possible, I don't think that has ever happened wrt mushrooms.


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Offlinedrizzle7788
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Re: question about ordering safely [Re: fastfred]
    #11668147 - 12/17/09 02:43 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Another point on this topic...  Business records are not constitutionally protected.  What that means is that if the government wants to see "business records", like what you purchased and your shipping address, they can get them without a warrant.  And yes, businesses are required to keep business records for tax purposes.

Even if your supplier doesn't want to cooperate or keeps shoddy records they can just go to the payment processor and get their records.

Nobody's going to go to jail or fight the IRS or whoever just to protect your ass.

Think about what you'll say to a judge or jury when the prosecutor produces a slip proving you ordered active spores AND the supplies to grow them at the same time.  Then they'll tell the jury you have no microscope and aren't any sort of scientist.

Still sound like a good idea?


-FF



Excellent point.
thanks


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Re: question about ordering safely [Re: drizzle7788]
    #11670408 - 12/17/09 07:56 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

While that is theoretically possible, I don't think that has ever happened wrt mushrooms.




Actually it has.  The customer and the supplier both got popped or at least charged.

Damn, I can't seem to find the post.  It should be here and in the news service forum.

I forget most of the details, but I think it's the only real case where a supplier and the customer both got busted.  IIRC they had just enough details of the communication between them to make the case that they both had intent.

Another example is the infamous PF case.  He got busted because he sent growing instructions along with active spores.  If the instructions were followed with the spores that came in the same package you would end up with a controlled substance.  He took a deal, pled to the charges, and got off pretty easy.

Despite not having the link to the first case, I think it's pretty clear that spores combined with any additional intent type evidence can end up with you getting charged.

I'm pretty amazed that companies will even send out active spores and supplies on the same slip or in the same package.

If anyone remembers that news story about the supplier-grower bust please post it!


-FF


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Re: question about ordering safely [Re: fastfred]
    #11670448 - 12/17/09 08:04 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Found it...

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=11670442


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: The Baraboo Police Department Newsletter July 2007 — Vol. 15, No. 7

Wisconsin v. Routon
Conspiracy to Manufacture Drugs

Routon appealed a circuit court’s convicting him of one count of conspiracy to manufacture psilocybin. Psilocybin is a hallucinogenic substance that is  produced by psilocybe mushrooms.

Routon contended that the evidence presented at  the trial to the court was insufficient to prove that he conspired to  manufacture psilocybin because the evidence showed he made only one sale and the sale was of legal materials—the spores of the psilocybe mushrooms and a grow kit.

The charge against Routon stemmed from the sale to a Special Agent of nine syringes labeled as containing psilocybe spores and a kit for growing mushrooms. 

The court agreed with Routon that the spores used to cultivate psilocybe  mushrooms do not contain psilocybin and it is legal under Wisconsin law to possess, sell, or distribute the spores.

However, the court concluded that there  was sufficient evidence that Routon knew that the buyer intended to use the  spores to illegally manufacture psilocybin by growing mushrooms, and that he intended to further, promote, and cooperate in the buyer’s illegal growing of the mushrooms.

The court stated that the evidence was sufficient to establish two elements of the [conspiracy] charge—that Routon intended that the crime of manufacture of  psilocybin be committed and that he agreed with at least one other person to commit that crime.

Because there was also sufficient evidence that one of the parties to the conspiracy committed an act in furtherance of the manufacturing —which Routon did not dispute— the court found that there was sufficient evidence to prove all three elements of the charge beyond a reasonable doubt and upheld the conviction.


Edited by fastfred (12/17/09 08:13 PM)


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Offlinefundamentalchair
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Re: question about ordering safely [Re: fastfred]
    #11671668 - 12/17/09 11:01 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Are you retarded?  You might as well just turn yourself in to the local cop shop right now for intent to manufacture.




:picard:

I share FF's sentiment, just not his vigor.

I believe that vendors have been including slides with all active spores and edible spores/cultures with grow kits in order to defend themselves from such similar accusations. While this keeps their butt safe, it doesn't do a whole lot for the purchaser.

Quote:

All the growing supplies you need can be had locally for half the cost.  Why would you order them?  It will be twice the cost, plus shipping on top of it.




Half is being overly pessimistic. A 50 lb bag or rye ($15-20) will fill up somewhere in the realm of 100-120 qt jars.

I could see some instances in which purchasing a kit would be advantageous, but they would be fairly rare.

Quote:

Another point on this topic...  Business records are not constitutionally protected.  What that means is that if the government wants to see "business records", like what you purchased and your shipping address, they can get them without a warrant.  And yes, businesses are required to keep business records for tax purposes.




While I'm not doubting you, I would like to see some sauce on that if you have it handy.

Does that pertain to professorships as well as LLC's and corporations? What duty is required for record keeping? How's that work for 'cash' businesses, such as coin op laundry/car wash?

Quote:

Even if your supplier doesn't want to cooperate or keeps shoddy records they can just go to the payment processor and get their records.




Which is why I'm glad that cash is still a valid form of currency. Sadly, I'm worried about it getting phased out in my lifetime.

Quote:

Nobody's going to go to jail or fight the IRS or whoever just to protect your ass.




We need a bigger :thumbup:, kinda like the :awebig: for :thumbup:

Quote:

While that is theoretically possible, I don't think that has ever happened wrt mushrooms.




Let's pretend for a moment that it hasn't, just a temporary suspension of disbelief.

So what? Just because no one has ever successfully committed suicide by removing their own brain through their asshole doesn't make trying it any smarter of an idea.

Quote:

Found it...



You. Da. Man.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: question about ordering safely [Re: fundamentalchair]
    #11674627 - 12/18/09 01:48 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

While I'm not doubting you, I would like to see some sauce on that if you have it handy.

Does that pertain to professorships as well as LLC's and corporations? What duty is required for record keeping? How's that work for 'cash' businesses, such as coin op laundry/car wash?




All businesses are required to keep records.  Your records must contain enough information to satisfy all the tax forms and satisfy the auditor if you get audited.  That is to say that you have to have records that prove the numbers you entered on the forms are correct.  The way they phrase it is "in accordance with standard business practices".  So you can't just make up some wacky system that nobody can understand, you have to use a standard accounting method.

Cash businesses are the same.  Obviously if you get paid in cash you're probably going to lie about most of your income, but you still have to have records.


The nut of why they don't need warrants for business records is because of the "reasonable expectation of privacy" standard.  If it's something you have no expectation of privacy for then it's not protected by the 4th amendment.  Since you know you have to disclose your records every year for taxes, and might even get audited where you have to produce ALL your paperwork, you have no reasonable expectation of privacy for those documents.

That standard applies to all sorts of things.  If you have a pot plant in your home it should be protected against unreasonable search and seizure.  However, if you put it in your unfenced yard where everyone can see it then you loose all your protections since you can't reasonably expect that people won't see it in that location.

Cases have held that if you build a big fence around your yard you then have a reasonable privacy expectation.  Cases where helicopters have hovered over fenced yards to look at them have been thrown out because it's not reasonable to expect government spies to hover over your yard in a chopper.


For business records you can refuse to turn them over and the government will then get a search warrant to look for them.  But since there's no expectation of privacy in those records getting the search warrant is just a formality so they can tear up your office or home.  For the probable cause they just have to reasonably think the records will be there.

None of that really matters because no business is going to refuse to turn over the records.  They can be penalized for not turning them over in the first place and since the search warrant for them is trivial there's just no point.


-FF


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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: question about ordering safely [Re: fastfred]
    #11699696 - 12/22/09 04:55 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I doubt the vendors keep addresses and names longer than necessary. Most business don't (for example) copy your info off your check and file it.
But anything they do have, gets turned over without question just like you said. :yesnod:


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: question about ordering safely [Re: Doc_T]
    #11703809 - 12/23/09 03:11 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

> Most business don't (for example) copy your info off your check and file it.

Well, if you're fool enough to send a check it's pretty much on file forever at the bank, which makes it very easy for the gov. to get access to.

> I doubt the vendors keep addresses and names longer than necessary.

I liked how PF used to do business.  You would send him cash in an envelope and he would cut your address out of the letter and tape it to the box he sent you.

Obviously he didn't keep any sort of records and even a trash grab by the cops wouldn't have gotten any customers.

That method is still my suggestion.  Send cash and print out an address label or cut it out yourself.  That way they just tape it straight to the box and you know they aren't going to waste time copying it down or even retyping it.


-FF


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