Home | Community | Message Board

World Seed Supply
Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Topicals

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]
InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis


Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,071
Loc: Boston
Solve this lifeboat scenario!!!
    #11660268 - 12/16/09 04:52 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

This is from he American Philosophical Association.

Consider the following case:

On Twin Earth, a brain in a vat is at the wheel of a runaway trolley. There are only two options that the brain can take: the right side of the fork in the track or the left side of the fork. There is no way in sight of derailing or stopping the trolley and the brain is aware of this, for the brain knows trolleys. The brain is causally hooked up to the trolley such that the brain can determine the course which the trolley will take.

On the right side of the track there is a single railroad worker, Jones,who will definitely be killed if the brain steers the trolley to the right. If the railman on the right lives, he will go on to kill five men for the sake of killing them, but in doing so will inadvertently save the lives of thirty orphans (one of the five men he will kill is planning to destroy a bridge that the orphan's bus will be crossing later that night). One of the orphans that will be killed would have grown up to become a tyrant who would make good utilitarian men do bad things. Another of the orphans would grow up to become G.E.M. Anscombe, while a third would invent the pop-top can.

If the brain in the vat chooses the left side of the track, the trolley will definitely hit and kill a railman on the left side of the track, "Leftie" and will hit and destroy ten beating hearts on the track that could (and would) have been transplanted into ten patients in the local hospital that will die without donor hearts. These are the only hearts available, and the brain is aware of this, for the brain knows hearts. If the railman on the left side of the track lives, he too will kill five men, in fact the same five that the railman on the right would kill. However, "Leftie" will kill the five as an unintended consequence of saving ten men: he will inadvertently kill the five men rushing the ten hearts to the local hospital for transplantation. A further result of "Leftie's" act would be that the busload of orphans will be spared. Among the five men killed by "Leftie" are both the man responsible for putting the brain at the controls of the trolley, and the author of this example. If the ten hearts and "Leftie" are killed by the trolley, the ten prospective heart-transplant patients will die and their kidneys will be used to save the lives of twenty kidney-transplant patients, one of whom will grow up to cure cancer, and one of whom will grow up to be Hitler. There are other kidneys and dialysis machines available, however the brain does not know kidneys, and this is not a factor.

Assume that the brain's choice, whatever it turns out to be, will serve as an example to other brains-in-vats and so the effects of his decision will be amplified. Also assume that if the brain chooses the right side of the fork, an unjust war free of war crimes will ensue, while if the brain chooses the left fork, a just war fraught with war crimes will result. Furthermore, there is an intermittently active Cartesian demon deceiving the brain in such a manner that the brain is never sure if it is being deceived.

QUESTION: What should the brain do?

:rofl2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinethomasbe
biased!
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/30/09
Posts: 174
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11660395 - 12/16/09 06:12 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

the brain should kill itself due to mass confusion


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineRainman420
Music is my Life
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 1,267
Last seen: 10 months, 12 days
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: thomasbe]
    #11660455 - 12/16/09 07:04 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

The brain already knows the decision it must make. It is subconcious and does not require in depth thinking in this situation.


--------------------
The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to selfishness;
From selfishness to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis


Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,071
Loc: Boston
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: Rainman420]
    #11660694 - 12/16/09 09:35 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Just to be clear, I posted this to make a mockery out of supposedly 'philisophical' lifeboat scenarios. :smirk:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11660720 - 12/16/09 09:44 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

As a brain I would know that all choices may have unintended and unforeseeable consequences. My brain being fully aware of this would probably let my body reactions choose which way to go in that last split second. Then I would take the relief, at having that over, to the ice cream shop and get something really yummy.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis


Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,071
Loc: Boston
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: Icelander]
    #11660820 - 12/16/09 10:15 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

A brain in a jar cannot enjoy ice cream. :sorry:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11660851 - 12/16/09 10:27 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Damn and I was really on a roll up to that point.:mad2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineLion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,685
Last seen: 1 day, 3 hours
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: Icelander]
    #11661039 - 12/16/09 11:16 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Damn and I was really on a roll up to that point.:mad2:


We all get intellectual brain-freeze from time to time.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: Lion]
    #11661153 - 12/16/09 11:51 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Brain freeze and no ice cream. Life really is unfair and now I have the proof.:hissyfit:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 11 months, 6 days
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: Icelander]
    #11661236 - 12/16/09 12:13 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Oh man I hate philosophical crap like this. Like that one about whether the ship is the same ship if you replace one plank. No, It's a slightly different fucking ship but who gives a fuck. The one about the tree making sounds in a wood aswell. Why the fuck would it not make a sound if no one was there to hear it, those problems are straight out retarded.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis


Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,071
Loc: Boston
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11661250 - 12/16/09 12:16 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Oh man I hate philosophical crap like this. Like that one about whether the ship is the same ship if you replace one plank. No, It's a slightly different fucking ship but who gives a fuck. The one about the tree making sounds in a wood aswell. Why the fuck would it not make a sound if no one was there to hear it, those problems are straight out retarded.




Agreed! :thumbup:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 11 months, 6 days
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11661280 - 12/16/09 12:22 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

A freind of mine in college had a two page essay to write about the ship and the plank, how the hell do you write two pages about something as lame as that anyway? :lol:


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis


Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,071
Loc: Boston
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11661284 - 12/16/09 12:23 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

If that's what passes as philosophy coursework these days, we are in dire need of intellectual help as a species. :shrug:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 11 months, 6 days
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11661319 - 12/16/09 12:31 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

For real. Most of college is so easy and dull I really struggle bothering like in physics my class spent 3 hours waving a slinky about on the floor in different ways to show them how waves work, I mean come on. They teach kids stuff so slowly these days it's boring, requires very little intellectual/creative thought and in dire need of a revamp. Maybe it's just the UK syllabus I dunno.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlineandrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,722
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11661950 - 12/16/09 02:34 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

liek yeah thats dum!


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineRainman420
Music is my Life
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 1,267
Last seen: 10 months, 12 days
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11663727 - 12/16/09 07:32 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
For real. Most of college is so easy and dull I really struggle bothering like in physics my class spent 3 hours waving a slinky about on the floor in different ways to show them how waves work, I mean come on. They teach kids stuff so slowly these days it's boring, requires very little intellectual/creative thought and in dire need of a revamp. Maybe it's just the UK syllabus I dunno.





You are totally right.  It is definitely not just the UK though.


--------------------
The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to selfishness;
From selfishness to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlineandrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,722
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: Rainman420]
    #11665120 - 12/16/09 10:54 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

How do you feel about Hobbes' fool rationalego? Just more silliness or is that less silly?


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineBrainChemistry
Captain Obvious
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/20/07
Posts: 3,657
Loc: Mountains of N. America Flag
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11665182 - 12/16/09 11:06 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

The questions I would have to ask are....

Did Hitler kill more people then cancer?

and

Would someone else have figured out how to cure cancer anyway, or did the cure die forever with that person?


--------------------
Word to your mom.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlineshivas.wisdom
בּ
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 12,201
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 7 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11665868 - 12/17/09 01:13 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

RationalEgo said:
Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Oh man I hate philosophical crap like this. Like that one about whether the ship is the same ship if you replace one plank. No, It's a slightly different fucking ship but who gives a fuck. The one about the tree making sounds in a wood aswell. Why the fuck would it not make a sound if no one was there to hear it, those problems are straight out retarded.




Agreed! :thumbup:



What is so retarded about these, what exactly about them? Are all thought experiments retarded?- and if not what makes these ones so?

Einsein imagined scenarios where he could travel at the same speed of light- an impossible scenario that contained some type of insight. Is this different, and why?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11665897 - 12/17/09 01:19 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Hilarious find.  This is why I dislike ethics.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 11 months, 6 days
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11666755 - 12/17/09 08:26 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

What is so retarded about these, what exactly about them? Are all thought experiments retarded?- and if not what makes these ones so?

Einsein imagined scenarios where he could travel at the same speed of light- an impossible scenario that contained some type of insight. Is this different, and why?




Just because really those two questions only have one possible answer that is not ridiculous and has any evidence in support and anyone with a modicum of intelligence who isn't caught up in their own bullshit ought to be able to see this IMO. I'd imagine einstein actually did difficult thought experiments. I don't know what they were specifically but alot of thought experiments I've come across in physics aren't just dumb shit.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Edited by Grapefruit (12/17/09 08:40 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis


Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,071
Loc: Boston
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11666765 - 12/17/09 08:32 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

RationalEgo said:
Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Oh man I hate philosophical crap like this. Like that one about whether the ship is the same ship if you replace one plank. No, It's a slightly different fucking ship but who gives a fuck. The one about the tree making sounds in a wood aswell. Why the fuck would it not make a sound if no one was there to hear it, those problems are straight out retarded.




Agreed! :thumbup:



What is so retarded about these, what exactly about them? Are all thought experiments retarded?- and if not what makes these ones so?

Einsein imagined scenarios where he could travel at the same speed of light- an impossible scenario that contained some type of insight. Is this different, and why?




I'm not going to do all your thinking for you, but I will give you a clue.

This lifeboat scenario is about 'ethics'. Giving unrealistic scenarios divorced from reality and the context of 'life' as an example of an ethical choice is retarded.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlineshivas.wisdom
בּ
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 12,201
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 7 hours, 36 minutes
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11667168 - 12/17/09 11:11 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I agree with the lifeboat scenario being useless- there isn't much to be gained from answering that problem, except maaaybe an understanding into your own personal sense of ethics.

I'm just saying not all of these types of questions are completely retarded though.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlineandrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,722
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11668146 - 12/17/09 02:42 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:

What is so retarded about these, what exactly about them? Are all thought experiments retarded?- and if not what makes these ones so?

Einsein imagined scenarios where he could travel at the same speed of light- an impossible scenario that contained some type of insight. Is this different, and why?




Just because really those two questions only have one possible answer that is not ridiculous and has any evidence in support and anyone with a modicum of intelligence who isn't caught up in their own bullshit ought to be able to see this IMO. I'd imagine einstein actually did difficult thought experiments. I don't know what they were specifically but alot of thought experiments I've come across in physics aren't just dumb shit.




I think you missed the point and/or are being too hard on the whole thing, who said they are awesome thought experiments with grandiose empirical utility. Just take em as they are or just spout of some opinion without getting into it like you are side stepping because you are so goddamn brilliant or beyond and too mature... but I would say they are mostly passed on just to catalyze thought and its the reasoning methodology that can be revealed through them not to mention that in the boat one the substance isn't in the supposedly binary answer, if you missed that you missed its point, I am glad things like these apparently frustrate people - that is what kept them alive in history plus the way they divide peoples opinion for discussion. Blah blah blah  just saying, just playing the devils advocate... :sun:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: andrewss]
    #11668193 - 12/17/09 02:50 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

"they are mostly passed on just to catalyze thought"

Well put.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinelearningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Male


Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11668471 - 12/17/09 03:26 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

The only application of theseus' boat would be this...

since in the human body, cells are constantly dying and being born, are you still the same person in 10 minutes? if not, at what point are you different? but then, who cares?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlineandrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,722
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: learningtofly]
    #11668487 - 12/17/09 03:27 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
The only application of theseus' boat would be this...

since in the human body, cells are constantly dying and being born, are you still the same person in 10 minutes? if not, at what point are you different? but then, who cares?




Yes that is a common adaptation. And yes, who cares? Yes yes yes but "who cares" about MUCH in life! :wink:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: Solve this lifeboat scenario!!! [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11670713 - 12/17/09 08:34 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

There are too many causes that separate the brain from this decision and its eventual effects and other unintended consequences that the brain cannot be held responsible for. This scenario implies free will and causality and there is no mention of the brains actions actually leading to any of the other characters actions. For example, the murder of the five men by Leftie or Jones. Jones is going to kill those five me because he wants to kill and Leftie because he is in a hurry to the hospital. Neither of those two actions is a direct result of the brain's actions. Correlation does not equal causation in this case. The Brain's choice only causes the trolly to go left or right and to subsequently kill Leftie or Jones. Either way the brain can only be held responsible that far in this causal chain. Following this logic there is no difference between choosing the left side or the right side since the brain can only be held responsible for one death and must as a necessity be held responsible for only one death given the conditions of this scenario.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Topicals


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* How will I solve my problem when I run out of money to buy pot? funkyrobot 1,310 14 05/07/10 09:23 PM
by andrewss
* A believer, an agnostic and an atheist are in a lifeboat
( 1 2 3 all )
OrgoneConclusion 1,304 44 10/10/09 11:33 PM
by OrgoneConclusion
* On Ethics and Transplants DiploidM 591 10 05/02/11 01:28 PM
by OrgoneConclusion
* Head Transplant
( 1 2 all )
Jaegar 2,563 35 02/21/10 05:48 PM
by Simms
* Poobles...(musings on solving the overpopulation problem)
( 1 2 3 all )
MJF 2,814 45 03/27/09 06:50 PM
by Kukaracha
* Solving the worlds problems.
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Icelander 5,452 84 04/05/07 09:18 PM
by fireworks_god
* Solving Equasions Chronic7 759 15 07/17/09 01:55 AM
by OrgoneConclusion
* Male ------> Female (Brain Transplant Discussion)
( 1 2 all )
Redstorm 5,648 32 03/25/04 04:14 PM
by Redstorm

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
4,041 topic views. 0 members, 4 guests and 4 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic | ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2021 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.044 seconds spending 0.012 seconds on 16 queries.