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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Shroud of Turin Documentary
    #1160528 - 12/21/02 04:52 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Watched it on A&E. It was actually quite good in that it gave the known history and showed both believer and skeptic viewpoints with minimal bias.

Conclusion: while there is still mystery as to its origin and method of image transference; there is not much doubt that it is NOT the burial shroud of Christ due to 3 independent labs coming up with the date of 1350 A.D. using the carbon dating of linen fibers.

Just wanted to comment in my usual facetious style on two scenes from the documentary.

1. In the mid 90s arson burnt the church housing the shroud. People went frantic trying to save it, but had trouble as its nearly destructive housing prevented firemen from getting at it in a timely fashion. Finally they freed the box which weighed 40 pounds. It was carried out into the plaza by four strong firemen on their shoulders where a crowd of 5000 was eagerly awaiting its rescue.

The fire chief commented with reverence (as if it were miraculous) "The box felt as if it weighed nothing." Well duh! 10 pounds on the shoulder of a fit, strong man (even an unfit woman) would not register as very much UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE! Don't take my word for it. Try it.

2. After the carbon dating in the mid 80s ended most research, one man continued on for another 15 years. His conclusion after 25 years of research was that it was NOT IMPORTANT what the cloth really was, but the the TRUE MEANING of the Shroud was in your heart. That is the kind of dribble you get when you cross a scientist with a believer.

If it was the real shroud, then God be praised. If it was a hoax, well it really doesn't matter. I wonder if he learned this type of "thinking" here on the shroomery.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: Shroud of Turin Documentary [Re: Swami]
    #1160576 - 12/21/02 05:09 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I got 10 bucks that says MarkosTheGnostic will reply to this thread at some point :grin:

(no I'm not really gonna send you 10 dollars - it was a "figure of speech")

"figure of speech" get it?  Oh nevermind.


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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Offlinemachineelf368
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Re: Shroud of Turin Documentary [Re: Swami]
    #1160645 - 12/21/02 05:39 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I read an article on The Shroud a few years back that was written when the carbon dating was still underway.  It made the arguement that whatever date would come up via the tests was automatically invalid because the shroud was in a fire in the 1500s.  Fires do Stuff to carbon, the kind of Stuff that would mess up those tests. 

Star Trek did this one episode where the blood of the Klingon messiah was used to create a genetic copy of their Savior in order to usher in the Second Coming.  I forgot, does the shroud have blood on it, or just a negative of a person's body?

Either way, it's all about Faith.  Believers don't need evidence, but Scientists need faith.  Just my opinion, at least. 

And 3eyedgod, that was horrible, just horrible.  :smile:
-m 


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(the above was deciphered from phi (~1.62) using an advanced alphanumeric conversion algorhythm and should not be perceived as meaningful.)


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InvisibleSwami
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Posts: 15,413
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Re: Shroud of Turin Documentary [Re: machineelf368]
    #1160655 - 12/21/02 05:42 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

That was one theory, but the carbon dating experts said that carbon from a fire would NOT give a false reading. I do not know enough about chemistry to give an opinion.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Shroud of Turin Documentary [Re: Swami]
    #1162794 - 12/22/02 05:35 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I once had a sequined jumpsuit that was so hot it defied any kind of dating! But that story will get us WAY off topic.


Edited by Anonymous (12/22/02 05:36 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Shroud of Turin Documentary [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1163037 - 12/22/02 06:47 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I'll betya 10 bucks the Earth continues to rotate on its axis at least one more time! :smile:

I read books on this years ago, but the Nova program that showed that the coloration of the threads was not just applied topically, but somehow permeated the thread, perhaps even from the core of the fibers outward (?) Moreover, there was a great abundance of the Crown of Thorns plant pollen about the head and shoulders of the shroud. Of course, there is also that fancy topograpical photography that indicates human-feature-like impressions. The holes in the wrists rather than the palms depicts a realistic method for crucifixion, despite centuries of art based on the Greek lack of anatomical specificity. The dumbell-shaped flagrum bruises, broken nose, cuts on brow, etc. all suggest the beating, abuse and crowning as depicted in Scripures. A fire took place centuries ago in which molten silver burned the diamond shaped holes (folded corners) that Poor Clares nuns repaired. Carbon 14 and Potassium Argon methods are great when dealing with multi-million year spans, but apparently not so good for a couple thousand years, but the nature of the herring-bone woven fabric and the pollen does seem to place the artifact in the Middle East. Not a DaVinci hoax, it interestingly enough remains a mystery.

Today on In Search Of, I saw a physician injected with a radioctive tracer that was picked up by radiophotography, and revealed a profile of radiation that looks like computer analyzed topograpical imagery on the shroud. In other words, the shroud image resembles an image formed by radiating energy of some sort. I am not much of a believer in the 'resusitation' of the physical body of Jesus. The Resurrection is the center of my Christian faith, but I don't know what it was phenomenologically. Before the Gospel writers wrote the Easter accounts, Paul spoke only of the Resurrected Lord in terms of the Light Experience on the road to Damascus.

I would prefer to think that the corpus of Jesus underwent an incomprehensible transformation into radiant energy, than ending up in a common grave for crucifixion victims, to be devoured by wild dogs.  Either possibility does not effect my faith. 


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineFatNug
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Re: Shroud of Turin Documentary [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1163674 - 12/23/02 04:09 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

:shocked: 
-maybe It was the Aliens!  They hit him with a electromagnetic ray gun from their ship posted in the upper atmosphere, and woke Jesus up!!  Or maybe he was just never dead in the first place :confused: 

PS:  Thanks to you Swami I now believe there is such a thing as ESP!! I was watching the Shroud of Turin special the other day, and said to myself, "Good Ol' Swam is gonna post on this"  :grin: 


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================================================So what's your peace of mind huh? A swiss watch? leasin' a Lex on credit? all the pussy and liquor a nigga can get..put together this puzzle, but my pieces won't fit.. {Ras kass}


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Shroud of Turin Documentary [Re: FatNug]
    #1163764 - 12/23/02 05:03 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

And did you find it miraculous that four strong men could carry forty pounds as if it were insignificant?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineFatNug
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Re: Shroud of Turin Documentary [Re: Swami]
    #1163772 - 12/23/02 05:10 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Okay Swami, that one was ...

------------------------->  over my head
        :shocked:

I dindn't find anything miraculous about it.  I thought the special was well presented, and relativly unbiased!   


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================================================So what's your peace of mind huh? A swiss watch? leasin' a Lex on credit? all the pussy and liquor a nigga can get..put together this puzzle, but my pieces won't fit.. {Ras kass}


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OfflineFatNug
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Re: Shroud of Turin Documentary [Re: FatNug]
    #1163787 - 12/23/02 05:21 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Ok nevermind I went back and read your original post...It took me a second but i figured it all out.
--I dont believe that Jesus was the 1 son of GOD or the savior of mankind.  I think he was just a guy who's thinking was  too advanced for his time.  A man with a massive case of megalomaina!  here's an idea.
Maybe Jesus got so deeply into meditation while he was half dead, that the electormagnetic energy form his body made an imprint on "da shroud"...TheIt is said that bodhidharma meditated in a cave in China until the monks allowed him access to their temple.  When he left there was supposedly an imprint of his body in the stone... :crazy: 


--------------------
================================================So what's your peace of mind huh? A swiss watch? leasin' a Lex on credit? all the pussy and liquor a nigga can get..put together this puzzle, but my pieces won't fit.. {Ras kass}


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Sorry Markos, but... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1163942 - 12/23/02 06:43 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Carbon 14 and Potassium Argon methods are great when dealing with multi-million year spans, but apparently not so good for a couple thousand years,

WRONG. Carbon 14 dating is IDEAL for dating the shroud (~2,000 years old).
from http://www.howstuffworks.com/carbon-14.htm :
"Because the half-life of carbon-14 is 5,700 years, it is only reliable for dating objects up to about 60,000 years old.
...
Potassium-40 is another radioactive element naturally found in your body and has a half-life of 1.3 billion years. "


I would prefer to think that the corpus of Jesus underwent an incomprehensible transformation into radiant energy...

Of course, THIS is much more scientifically plausible than Carbon-14 dating...
I just don't understand that line of "reasoning".


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Sorry Markos, but... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1164840 - 12/23/02 12:37 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I'm sorry that you don't understand, I know that is a problem for you. I am not an expert in Carbon 14 procedures, although I thought, perhaps wrongly, the half life to be at least twice as long as the date you posted. As for reason pertaining to faith, I also enjoin the power of imagination in my consciousness, along with hope in a really supernatural, inexplicable, historical event. However, you do not grok the 'organ' of faith, let alone a faith that does not rely on miraculous events, so please refrain from any feeble attempts at suggesting flawed reasoning on my part.

Science, is a methodology, that is all. It relies on reason, sensory (howsoever enhanced) data, and the ability to predict results of an experiment reproduced under identical conditions. Science may be applied to any phenomenon - even the apparently miraculous - which implies a non-uniformity in natural law. The influx of another dimension into our own is a possibility, and such an influx might well distort or otherwise alter the physics of our space-time continuum (not to sound too much like McKenna). Rather than a chance event (because I do not believe that mathematical probability is the god behind the intelligent design of existence), there is no reason NOT to consider the Resurrection event as a very intentional act through which humankind is brought to awareness of spiritual direction from God. God, to us primitive humans always occurs to us as awesome, incomprehensible Reality. God is more of an experience of the inexplicably mind-blowing than any mere doctrine. I like to keep an open mind since I'm not intelligent or wise enough to say what is NOT possible.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Sorry Markos, but... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1165127 - 12/23/02 03:16 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Science, is a methodology, that is all.
That is all? Nice downplay on one mankind's of most amazing achievements.

...even the apparently miraculous - which implies a non-uniformity in natural law.
To some and yes, by definition, it implies non-uniformity. To others, it merely implies a lack of understanding of the cause of the event; either because it's non-reproducibility, or remoteness in time and space, gives no "handle" with which to study it.

The influx of another dimension into our own is a possibility, and such an influx might well distort or otherwise alter the physics of our space-time continuum (not to sound too much like McKenna).
A possibility based on mere conjecture without the slightest substantiation. A infinite number of such imaginary possibilites exist and therefore have no meaning without some evidence (oops - I used that naughty word again!)

There is no reason NOT to consider the Resurrection event as a very intentional act through which humankind is brought to awareness of spiritual direction from God.
There are PLENTY of reasons NOT to consider it as such; the most likely being the WELL-KNOWN prediliction of humans to embellish and exaggerate when story-telling; and to fill in any missing details with imagination. Each successive passing down of any story to another generation, by default, makes if further and further from the actual event.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Sorry Markos, but... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1165139 - 12/23/02 03:23 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

However, you do not grok the 'organ' of faith, let alone a faith that does not rely on miraculous events, so please refrain from any feeble attempts at suggesting flawed reasoning on my part.

I just think you don't understand the Bible as much as you think/claim you do. You can crank out ten pages of gobbledy gook, but in the end it's just sophistry.

I'll admit that real faith is completely insulated from reason. However, many (yourself included) seem to think that faith can be somehow justified. It can't. So believe whatever you want... but don't parade your faith-based beliefs around like they're the epitome of reason.

I'll finish with a quote from Kierkegaard:
"Without risk there is no faith. Faith is precisely the contradiction between the infinite passion of the individual's inwardness and the objective uncertainty.
...
the more objective security the less inwardness (for inwardness is precisely subjectivity), and the less objective security the more profound the possible inwardness."

It's an issue of coherence... you can't just pick the best parts of each stance, you must adhere to all of them.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Sorry Markos, but... [Re: Swami]
    #1165168 - 12/23/02 03:31 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Markos: Science, is a methodology, that is all.

Swami: That is all? Nice downplay on one mankind's of most amazing achievements.

It's not a downplay Swami. It is a fact. A methodology is all it is. The idea that it has "amazing achievements" is purely subjective. I own a toaster, big deal. *yawn*

You want to amaze me? Change a man's heart. That's what I call amazing. And, of course, that idea is subjective too.

Those who yearn for Truth had better look somewhere else other than science. For it can only tell us what is within its very limited paradigm.

And how come nobody asked for a picture of me in my jumpsuit? It is stunning.


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: Sorry Markos, but... [Re: ]
    #1165226 - 12/23/02 04:11 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

And how come nobody asked for a picture of me in my jumpsuit? It is stunning.

I'd take a look at your picture Mr. Mushrooms.

I'd imagine you as looking like popular depictions of Zeus, in a jumpsuit.

Did Zeus  ever wear a jumpsuit? 

Duh he's a God.  Of course he has :grin:


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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Anonymous

Re: Sorry Markos, but... [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1165241 - 12/23/02 04:25 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Thank you 3eyedgod.  At least somebody cares. :smile:


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