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 Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
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 Re: Your opinion on fundamentalists 2  [Re: MushroomTrip]
#11608377 - 12/08/09 01:33 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
There's a huge difference between a skeptic who's always willing and able to explain their POV, in-depth, and a fundie that goes on and on about the same crap, sneaking his way out of a serious reply. 
Or the spiritualist who's always willing and able to explain their POV, in-depth, and a skeptic that goes on and one about the same crap, sneaking his way out of a serious reply.
Tell me you haven't seen his posts.
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
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Re: Your opinion on fundamentalists 2 [Re: Lakefingers]
#11608380 - 12/08/09 01:34 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lakefingers said:
Once again, the point is not about having a formed opinion in advance, but about how you react when that pre-formed opinion comes up in discussion.
I'm beginning to get very tired of having to explain this distinction. 
As tired as I am of having only one section of my post read or replied to? I doubt it.
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 Taco Chef
I found dead John Cheever
Registered: 03/03/06
Posts: 33,222
Loc: the city of dis
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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i would propose that it is not possible to have a logical discussion with any one who thinks any of the following positions can be considered as evidence or factual.
Quote:
ObliviousSeeker said:
So let's see..
Archeological evidence that Old Testament accounts of history are accurate.
Facts regarding Laws of Nature evident in scripture that predates secular discovery of such science by a thousand+ years.
Old Testament prophecy being fulfilled throughout our lifetime in plain view.
Consistent message throughout the bible despite being written over a 1,500 year period by 40 different authors who, for the most part, did not know or have any relation to one another.
There is enormous amounts of logical, tangible, reasonable, physical evidence that the BIBLE is not a man-made book, that it IS in fact God's Word, and I was an ATHEIST a few years ago. So it LOGICALLY follows suit that I would READ the book, LEARN everything I can about it, and FAITHFULLY OBEY. And no, this isn't bondage it's FREEDOM to know the truth.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Your opinion on fundamentalists 2 [Re: Taco Chef]
#11612058 - 12/08/09 07:11 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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From growing up in the fundy world and then "debating" them for all these years I would have to conclude that you are correct.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area 
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Re: Your opinion on fundamentalists 2 [Re: Icelander]
#11612446 - 12/08/09 07:57 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Fundamentalists argue with their powerfully dark emotions because that is all that they have. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Darkestone
One of Them
Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 682
Loc: On healing wings
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Re: Your opinion on fundamentalists 2 [Re: Germican]
#11613009 - 12/08/09 09:02 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Germican said:
What about allowing them to to be isolated in their own theology forum?
I have tried to "isolate" myself and other believers in a haven of rest in M&P, I asked people not to be rude and to stay out if they couldn't be uplifting but guess what? It didn't work. People who's main intent was to debate and prove the Bible wrong came in and would not stop trying to bait us and argue.
And yet, WE are the intolerant ones. IT WAS IN M&P!!!
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Darkestone
One of Them
Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 682
Loc: On healing wings
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Re: Your opinion on fundamentalists 2 [Re: Icelander]
#11613139 - 12/08/09 09:25 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Here is a fine example of lakefingers biased opinions. Proving my point from the other thread:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Anyone proposing that they know what's true will promptly be shot.
I was just proposing a ban cause I didn't think that was legal. 
Nothing was said by LF, you see, because Icelander was doing the talking.
Quote:
Lakefingers said:
Quote:
ObliviousSeeker said:
Maybe you can start by giving more reasons not to believe than half-witted one liners and redundant emoticons.
And they strike with flaming yet again.
pointing the Hypocritical finger much? I'm just saying. IMO(<<<that's how others get away with it right?) Can't everyone see how condescending you are being?? Just because you don't name name's doesn't mean you aren't personalizing. Buncha politicians, I swear.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Your opinion on fundamentalists 2 [Re: Darkestone]
#11613149 - 12/08/09 09:27 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Darkestone said:
Quote:
Germican said:
What about allowing them to to be isolated in their own theology forum?
I have tried to "isolate" myself and other believers in a haven of rest in M&P, I asked people not to be rude and to stay out if they couldn't be uplifting but guess what? It didn't work. People who's main intent was to debate and prove the Bible wrong came in and would not stop trying to bait us and argue.
And yet, WE are the intolerant ones. IT WAS IN M&P!!!
Out of curiosity why don't you like debate? Surely if your beliefs are correct they will stand up against the arguments of others.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Your opinion on fundamentalists 2 [Re: Darkestone]
#11613183 - 12/08/09 09:33 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
And yet, WE are the intolerant ones.
See my "Which We?" thread.
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Darkestone
One of Them
Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 682
Loc: On healing wings
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Re: Your opinion on fundamentalists 2 [Re: deCypher]
#11613497 - 12/08/09 10:36 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
Darkestone said:
Quote:
Germican said:
What about allowing them to to be isolated in their own theology forum?
I have tried to "isolate" myself and other believers in a haven of rest in M&P, I asked people not to be rude and to stay out if they couldn't be uplifting but guess what? It didn't work. People who's main intent was to debate and prove the Bible wrong came in and would not stop trying to bait us and argue.
And yet, WE are the intolerant ones. IT WAS IN M&P!!!
Out of curiosity why don't you like debate? Surely if your beliefs are correct they will stand up against the arguments of others.
You don't want to hear my views. That's all most people in hear talk about in the first place. So why should I explain myself to you? So you can bait me again? You don't care and it's not just out of curiosity, no matter how many times you say it. It is out of the need you have to argue. Jesus didn't argue, and neither should His children.
And besides, if you will read the other threads I posted in in here when I was asked to provide proof by one of your regulars and I did, he specifically stated that he wasn't going to take the time to read my proof because I was illogical. How could he say I was illogical without reading my logic? When a "fundy" does start to make good points you guys will continually just start making fun and distracting people from the point at hand.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Your opinion on fundamentalists 2 [Re: Darkestone]
#11613525 - 12/08/09 10:46 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Darkestone said:
You don't want to hear my views.
If you actually read this thread you'd see that I was arguing in favor of not banning fundamentalists in this forum. I'm for open discussion and debate on any topic provided you're willing to back up your views.
I do want to apologize for unnecessarily baiting you in your M&P thread given that you specifically requested that the thread just be for believers, but I think it's silly to refuse to defend your beliefs in a forum like this one.
Quote:
Darkestone said:
Jesus didn't argue, and neither should His children.
Quote:
In his masterful article “Jesus as Logician,” Dallas Willard correctly notes that while Jesus did not teach a theory of logic or explicitly call attention to logical forms, his skill as a logician resides in his accurate, powerful and precise use of logic in his teaching and debates. To see this, let’s look at some examples.
Consider Matthew 22:23-33 where the Sadducees raise a reductio ad absurdum argument against Jesus. In such an argument you grant your opponent’s premise, show that it leads to an absurd conclusion, and argue, therefore, that the granted premise should be denied. The argument is also an example of a dilemma syllogism (see below): Formally, the Sadducees argue thusly: If P (there is life after death), then either Q (adultery is permissible in the afterlife) or R (polygamy is permissible in the afterlife). Not-Q (adultery is not permissible, period) and not-R (polygamy is not permissible, period). Therefore, not-P (there is no life after death).
Grasping the heart of this syllogism, Jesus skillfully notes that the either/or dilemma his opponents have placed on him (either adultery or polygamy is permissible in the afterlife) both make an assumption: There is marriage in the afterlife. They argue: If there is marriage in the afterlife, then either there is adultery or polygamy. Jesus denies that there is marriage in the afterlife (Matthew 22:39), and in one simple step, he undermines the dilemma (either adultery or polygamy) they have raised against life after death.
In Mark 11:27-33, Jesus himself uses a dilemma syllogism. Put formally, such a syllogism goes like this: (1) (If P then Q) and (if R the S), and (2) either P or R, then (3) either Q or S. In context, the religious leaders are challenging Jesus’ authority, and he asks, “Was the baptism of John from heaven or from men?” His argument is this: (1) (If John’s baptism is from heaven, then the critics ought to believe John’s teaching about Jesus) and (If John’s baptism is from men, then the critics are in danger from the people). (2) Either John’s baptism is from heaven or from men. Then, (3) the critics should either believe John’s teaching or place themselves in danger from the people. Realizing that Jesus had successfully placed them on the horns of a nasty dilemma, they responded by saying “We don’t know from where John’s baptism came.”
To my mind, Jesus was the greatest thinker who ever lived. And while he did not come to develop a theory about logic or to teach logic as a field of study, it is clear that he was adept at employing logical forms and laws in his thinking and reasoning. We who are his followers should go and do likewise.
http://www.scriptoriumdaily.com/2007/08/06/how-did-jesus-argue-jesus-logic/
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Your opinion on fundamentalists 2 [Re: Darkestone]
#11613590 - 12/08/09 11:00 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jesus didn't argue, and neither should His children.
Dead wrong. Another Christian who does not know his Bible. 
Even so, I will play your silly game.
Jesus didn't drive a car, and neither should His children.
Jesus didn't eat ice cream, and neither should His children.
Jesus didn't do LSD, and neither should His children.
Jesus didn't use the internet, and neither should His children.
How far should we go on this?
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Darkestone
One of Them
Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 682
Loc: On healing wings
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
And yet, WE are the intolerant ones.
See my "Which We?" thread.
First off this thread is a prime example of your misinterpretation of the scriptures and something you are unwilling to understand. It is not everyone who agrees with me. It is everyone who agrees with Jesus Christ the author and finisher of our faith. I do not belong to a church. Never have never will. It is a relationship, not a religion.
"There's not one thing you can do to be saved in yourself. No sir. You are saved by grace and that alone, and you have nothing to do with it. God chose you in Christ before the foundation of the world. That's right.
There's not one thing you can do to merit. So you keep all the commandments you want to, join all the churches you want to, you're still lost.
You might know your catechism, say Hail Mary's. You might know the Apostles Creed, the Doxology; you might know all the doctrine of the Bible.
But to know the Bible is not Life. To know the church creed is not Life.
But to know Him is Life.[!!!!] Alone to know Him... You might be baptized this way, that way, this way, that way, or sprinkled, poured, whatever it may be; you're still lost until you know Him. To know Him is Life."
When a man went into the inner veil, the second veil, he was hid from the world; the curtains dropped around him. And when we can lose ourselves in Jesus Christ, don't care what your denomination is, them things don't bother you any more, you're just lost in Christ. Don't care what the howling mobs around say, you're lost in Christ. Amen.
There's where the Shekinah Glory, where the Light, that Halo, that little Ball of Fire, that come in behind the altar, and went down, and settled on the mercy seat, where the Blood was. And there that Light lit up the room.
Now, the light of the court was the firmament. The light at the first veil was a bunch of lamps. They got smoky and went out sometime. And that's the way with a man from one revival to another one, if he's just living in the church, and having a little spurt up once in a while.
And he gets all fired up when the revival, but a few weeks if they don't start another one somewhere, he goes down, smokes out. See? "Oh, my church ain't having this one, and my church..."
Brother, go on to the inner veil; God is the Light in there. It's always light. The Shekinah Glory lit up that place and never did go out, year after year. And the manna never did get old; it was the same all the time
They thought I was crazy. The people... My... I was a single man. My girlfriends that I'd been going with, thought I was crazy. But I knowed something happened. I knowed that I could trust Him. No matter what taken place, I believed Him. And you have to believe Him. Sometimes He calls a total separation from friends and associates. But separate yourself from the things of the world and walk with Christ"
These things of the world include all the denominations that you have mention in your thread. A real Christian doesn't follow what his church says or what his pastor or mother or father or association says. He has only one thing to do in life and that is to follow Christ and wait on The Lord. If he will do this then God will take care of the rest. God will prove his word by manifesting it. It is of no private interpretation.
IME (in my experience)
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Darkestone
One of Them
Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 682
Loc: On healing wings
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Re: Your opinion on fundamentalists 2 [Re: Darkestone]
#11613806 - 12/08/09 11:32 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thank you both for proving my point!  See how condescending you are? I have done nothing to you! All I have done is state my beliefs and you use every opportunity you can to make fun of them. I don't make fun of you. Why the hostility? You hate me without a cause and this is the same way they treated my Father when He came.
You may debate with others but you condescend to Christians. And yet you get no warnings for your attitudes or your preaching. This may be my last post but I am quoting scripture in here anyways.
Just because that guy says Jesus Argued that PROVES he did? Not in the slightest.
I read Matthew 22:23-33 and He doesn't argue but He does say this after they try to bait and trap Him by asking Him a question and appearing docile and curious, sound familiar?:
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33 And when the multitude heard [this], they were astonished at his doctrine.
He didn't argue, he told them how it was, somebody had to as they were misleading the people.
Also, Mark 11:27-33 was not an argument either. read up instead of just taking what some theologian or doctor says.
To ar·gue (är′gyo̵̅o̅)
intransitive verb argued -·gued, arguing -·gu·ing
1.to have a disagreement; quarrel; dispute
Maybe argue wasn't the right word though, maybe quarrel was a better term. Or a verbal fight seeing as how you choose to verbally bash those who believe in truth. Just like those Sadducee's and Pharisees of old (same spirit is still hanging around IMO) But these injustices were just too much for me. Or else I wouldn't be in this forum.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Your opinion on fundamentalists 2 [Re: Darkestone]
#11613828 - 12/08/09 11:37 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'd really like to know where I've been hostile or condescending in this thread. There's no hatred coming from me, only confusion at the fact that someone who believes in something refuses to back up what they're saying with valid reasoning.
At any rate you didn't read the right definition for argument in reference to Jesus: According to the Mirriam-Webster Online Dictionary, argumentation is the act or process of forming reasons and of drawing conclusions and applying them to a case in discussion, which Jesus certainly performed in numerous places and at numerous times in the Bible.
I also want to remind you that in a debate-oriented forum it's considered appropriate to attack each other's ideas as much as we want. This doesn't mean that we're attacking each other or insulting other posters, though... you are not your ideas.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Darkestone
One of Them
Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 682
Loc: On healing wings
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Re: Your opinion on fundamentalists 2 [Re: deCypher]
#11613896 - 12/08/09 11:47 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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My reasoning was perfectly valid. Just as valid as yours.
And not condescending? So that wasn't you laughing at what I said up there?
See?? I'm done with your vicious death cycle. I backed up my veiws JUST as much as you backed up yours.....and now I feel as though I am beg ginning to quarrel over insignificant things, semantics, and feeeeeeeelings, which is ridiculous. I've made my point.
Edit: NO WAY AM I ADMITTING THAT I ARGUED!!! lol jk (ican't believe you got me) 
Edited by Darkestone (12/09/09 12:28 AM)
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Your opinion on fundamentalists 2 [Re: Darkestone]
#11613924 - 12/08/09 11:50 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Darkestone said:
I backed up my veiws JUST as much as you backed up yours
So you admit that you provided logical argumentation then? I thought Jesus' children weren't supposed to do that kind of thing. 
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Darkestone
One of Them
Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 682
Loc: On healing wings
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Re: Your opinion on fundamentalists 2 [Re: deCypher]
#11614075 - 12/09/09 12:24 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Cute I said "shouldn't" But....
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C.M. Mann
subconscious explorer
Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 899
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
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Re: Your opinion on fundamentalists 2 [Re: Darkestone]
#11614083 - 12/09/09 12:26 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm not quite sure what your point was, but I did make a couple of observations. When your faith was questioned, you became agitated and angry. I see nothing that would make me think that an Almighty God whipped us up out of nothing! If there is even one fact that would suggest this God, What would that be? 
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Darkestone
One of Them
Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 682
Loc: On healing wings
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Re: Your opinion on fundamentalists 2 [Re: C.M. Mann]
#11614262 - 12/09/09 01:04 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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All I can say, mann, is that you read me wrong. I was not agitated nor angry, just trying to explain my point. Logically. If you would have had a heart rate meter thingy on me it wouldn't have changed. I was at peace. So you observations were incorrect sir! <edd mcmaaannn>
I was angry when I spoke about our beloved moderator on the other thread. THAT was me angry. I use cranky when I am happy and light-hearted alot. He makes me happy cuz he's so gosh darn cute.
Oh, And DNA. For one. But I have been through this before with people. They say show me God, and I show them the intricacies and beauty of nature which IMO can only come from an intelligent life force.
Or I will reply, prove there isn't a God and they will show me famine, pain, injustice, hungry people....excetra excetra.
Neither can be proven, just like you can't prove love. But it's there. and it's real. But then some think that's debatable too. Not for me to judge.
I don't think debating and philosophy go well together. I think One is dreaming and thinking and one demands proof and factual evidence.
The closest I can come to factual proof of God are the thousands of healings that have taken place in the world. I speak not of Katherin kuhlman or Benny hinn as they are false teachers, But of Christ's ministry around the world.
If I were to bring these testimonies into this forum, the amputee's limbs restored, the lame made whole, the blind made to see, the dead brought back to life, with Doctors testimonies, most in here would not believe it. They would say the tens of thousands of people were lying, or the doctor's reports were false. Or the people healed themselves most people don't want to believe in the truckloads of crutches coming away from one meeting in Africa with the used to be cripples running behind the truck singing "only believe, only believe, all things are possible, only believe."
 And that's alright, I don't want to force my belief's on anyone, wouldn't do any good anyways. That's not why I came in here, I came in here to vote and for some reason started talking. i was trying to express myself and then defend my point that even when I try to be left alone about my beliefs in M&P people wouldn't let me be. That most people in here are "fundy's" about what they believe and hard to be swayed but the Christians get singled out. It went on from there. I didn't come in here with the purpose of discussing my beliefs. I didn't mean to try and talk anyone into anything or prove God existed.
Cause If you can talk them into it, you can talk them out of it. But when God seals you in....well, that's a whole nother story.
And I really don't have the time to hunt down all the info for you. If you want to go through lots of stuff to get the info, the man in my sig's website isn't a bad place to start.
His son runs the place and witnessed alot of incredible things in his lifetime. If you are a good judge of character, you will be able to tell if he is lying or not.
Also, the pastor at this website www.lukegibsonsr.com ; Has been healed and his family healed of many things and he doesn't mind a good debate or two and is alot better at it than an emotional chick like me.
If you are truly seeking God and not just like those who Told Christ "come down from the cross and we'll believe you" He will come to you. For he has never lost not one of his own. And he never will, cause he's God. He is infinite. IME
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