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Offlineelcharrosays
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Police Tapped Sprint Customer GPS Data 8 Million Times In A Year
    #11598151 - 12/06/09 06:24 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Under a new system set up by Sprint, law enforcement agencies have gotten GPS data from the company about its wireless customers 8 million times in about a year, raising a host of questions about consumer privacy, transparency, and oversight of how police obtain location data.

What this means -- and what many wireless customers no doubt do not realize -- is that with a few keystrokes, police can determine in real time the location of a cell phone user through automated systems set up by the phone companies.

And while a Sprint spokesman told us customers can shield themselves from surveillance by simply switching off the GPS function of their phones, one expert told TPM that the company and other carriers almost certainly have the power to remotely switch the function back on.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/12/revelation_8_million_gps_searches_on_sprint_by_law.php?ref=fpb


:kong:


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Offlinesupra
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Re: Police Tapped Sprint Customer GPS Data 8 Million Times In A Year [Re: elcharrosays]
    #11598590 - 12/06/09 07:21 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

elcharrosays said:

And while a Sprint spokesman told us customers can shield themselves from surveillance by simply switching off the GPS function of their phones, one expert told TPM that the company and other carriers almost certainly have the power to remotely switch the function back on.





of course, not only that, what is to say its even really switched off?  You can't really trust a UI to really do what it says behind the scenes...

if you are really that worried about it, best bet is to buy a tracfone and card with cash in a place with no cameras, then activate from a payphone.

peace

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OfflineRazzleCap
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Re: Police Tapped Sprint Customer GPS Data 8 Million Times In A Year [Re: supra]
    #11598603 - 12/06/09 07:24 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Or go old-school and use pigeons. Or your dog.


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OfflineDropScience
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Re: Police Tapped Sprint Customer GPS Data 8 Million Times In A Year [Re: RazzleCap]
    #11599602 - 12/06/09 09:50 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

it came out years ago that they can remotely turn on functions such as gps and activate the microphone..

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Invisible4bin
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Re: Police Tapped Sprint Customer GPS Data 8 Million Times In A Year [Re: DropScience]
    #11600071 - 12/06/09 11:11 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I can't help but wonder how many of those GPS taps resulted in an "anonymous tip."


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Offline2859558484
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Re: Police Tapped Sprint Customer GPS Data 8 Million Times In A Year [Re: 4bin]
    #11600696 - 12/07/09 01:29 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Sprint came out with an article saying the 8 million figure is just the amount of pings used, not total number of queries which they put at "thousands".

cant find a link for it, sorry. who knows if its true either but....


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Police Tapped Sprint Customer GPS Data 8 Million Times In A Year [Re: 2859558484]
    #11601064 - 12/07/09 04:04 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

> Sprint came out with an article saying the 8 million figure is just the amount of pings used, not total number of queries which they put at "thousands".

Which leads to the question, how many pings can one query request?  Sounds like they are trying to spin the bad publicity, to me.


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Offline2859558484
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Re: Police Tapped Sprint Customer GPS Data 8 Million Times In A Year [Re: Seuss]
    #11602501 - 12/07/09 11:19 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

oh yeah, definitely.

but Its a relief to know that millions werent targeted....


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Police Tapped Sprint Customer GPS Data 8 Million Times In A Year [Re: 2859558484]
    #11602989 - 12/07/09 12:40 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

If you take the population of the US (308 million) divided by the 8 million pings then 1 out of every 39 people got located in the last year.

You can spin it however you want, but it's so far into the "big brother" dark future there's no possible way it can be justified.

I can't understand how Sprint can be so stupid.  The forces of legal justice and capitalism should prevent this.  They shouldn't be able to locate people without a court order AND sprint should be charging at least $10 a ping.

So WHAT THE FUCK!!!

Sprint just threw away at least $80 million dollars in order to fuck over it's own customers!  Why?

I can't even locate myself for free so why the fuck aren't they at least making money on this?


-FF

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Police Tapped Sprint Customer GPS Data 8 Million Times In A Year [Re: fastfred]
    #11608746 - 12/08/09 04:08 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

If you take the population of the US (308 million) divided by the 8 million pings then 1 out of every 39 people got located in the last year.




I read it as they tracked several thousand people resulting in over eight million location logs, basically providing police with a detailed, time coded, map showing the path that people's phones traveled.  I suspect they have also figured out a way to activate the GPS functionality of the phone while the phone appears to be 'off', given their past history.  Moral of the story... leave your cell phone at home and use prepaid phones when you travel, if you wish to remain anonymous.


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Invisibletak
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Re: Police Tapped Sprint Customer GPS Data 8 Million Times In A Year [Re: Seuss]
    #11633053 - 12/11/09 09:28 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Does any of this surprise anyone? Really?

You don't need GPS to be tracked either, triangulation based on cell towers is both fast and accurate.

They can track your movement and listen to your conversation while your phone is powered off if they want to.

If you don't want someone watching your movement, and listening to you, I suggest not having a Microphone / GPS in your pocket.


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Offlinefundamentalchair
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Re: Police Tapped Sprint Customer GPS Data 8 Million Times In A Year [Re: tak]
    #11633256 - 12/11/09 10:11 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

tak said:
Does any of this surprise anyone? Really?

You don't need GPS to be tracked either, triangulation based on cell towers is both fast and accurate.

They can track your movement and listen to your conversation while your phone is powered off if they want to.

If you don't want someone watching your movement, and listening to you, I suggest not having a Microphone / GPS in your pocket.




1. define 'accurate'.
2. Do you have any sources for this information, or are you just pulling it from the local tinfoil hat wearing club?


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Invisibletak
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Re: Police Tapped Sprint Customer GPS Data 8 Million Times In A Year [Re: fundamentalchair]
    #11633889 - 12/12/09 12:17 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_tracking
Quote:


Mobile phone tracking tracks the current position of a mobile phone even on the move. To locate the phone, it must emit at least the roaming signal to contact the next nearby antenna tower, but the process does not require an active call. GSM localisation is then done by multilateration based on the signal strength to nearby antenna masts.






http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/12/can_you_hear_me.html
Quote:


Cell phone users, beware.  The FBI can listen to everything you say, even when the cell phone is turned off.





Accuracy will depend location to location with both GPS and network based location. It is public knowledge that the FBI remotely monitors cell phone microphones while not on a call, and while phone's appeared to be off. They also tapped vehicles equipped with onStar in the same case. 

I don't think that they would waste resources tracking the average joe, but the technology is there. Not everyone has smart phones either, this is changing very fast. GPS and data connections are going to be a mainstay with mobile phones, and that is a pretty big personal security threat if you ask me.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Police Tapped Sprint Customer GPS Data 8 Million Times In A Year [Re: tak]
    #11634306 - 12/12/09 02:05 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

tak said:
They can track your movement and listen to your conversation while your phone is powered off if they want to.




Even if you remove the battery?


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Invisibletak
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Re: Police Tapped Sprint Customer GPS Data 8 Million Times In A Year [Re: deCypher]
    #11634893 - 12/12/09 08:04 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think they'd be able to with the battery removed. I think its more of the phone being in standby, or the display being turned off while still remaining on. Taking the battery out is probably pretty effective.


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Offlinefundamentalchair
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Re: Police Tapped Sprint Customer GPS Data 8 Million Times In A Year [Re: tak]
    #11637738 - 12/12/09 04:28 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

It is public knowledge that the FBI remotely monitors cell phone microphones while not on a call, and while phone's appeared to be off.




No, it isn't public or common knowledge. Even if it were, that doesn't make it right. Please see the below instances of 'common knowledge'.

A LEO must tell you he is a cop if you ask him.
A undercover LEO isn't able to do illegal activities.
The world is flat.
Disease is caused by spirits haunting the blood.

While I do not disagree with the ability of turning on a cell's microphone while not in a call (I have found purchasable software for such a thing), while the phone is 'off', I call shenanigans.

This hypothesis is completely testable, verifiable, or falsifiable. Without some sort of reference, I see no reason to believe in it's legitimacy. Sadly, your reference is nothing more than heresy or a poor argument from authority. Anyone can assert something, but without any sort of evidence it is nothing but an assertion. That 'blog' post holds no more authority than me telling you that the world is flat because I know it is.


--------------------
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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Police Tapped Sprint Customer GPS Data 8 Million Times In A Year [Re: fundamentalchair]
    #11637996 - 12/12/09 05:12 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I agree with you.  It's likely that the reports should have said "when not in use" or "while not actually in a call".  That's probably what they meant when they talk about the mic picking up when it's "off".

While I'm sure they could push an update on your phone that would hack it to look like it's off I don't see why they would waste the time.

I mean how many people actually turn their cell phones off anyways?  Everyone I know just turns their ringer off and has their cell on all the time.

If someone is on to the cops to the point where they think they might remotely activate the mic they probably aren't going to take the chance of having any cell phone on them anyways.

It should also be pointed out that the only way the trick would work is if they pushed a hacked update on you and activated it before the cell was turned off.  Then your phone wouldn't really be off anyways, it would just look off.  So saying they can turn the mic on when your phone is off is just bullshit.  When a phone is really off it's not sending or receiving signals of any sort so there's no way it could be turned on remotely.


-FF

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Offlinefundamentalchair
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Re: Police Tapped Sprint Customer GPS Data 8 Million Times In A Year [Re: fastfred]
    #11638497 - 12/12/09 06:50 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I agree with you.  It's likely that the reports should have said "when not in use" or "while not actually in a call".  That's probably what they meant when they talk about the mic picking up when it's "off".




The included citation did state "while it is off". While not expressly stating so, it insinuated while the phone was 'not on', not 'not in use'. The citation used no additional proof or citation other than the words of some (probably non-existant) FBI agent. Great reporting ABC!

Quote:

While I'm sure they could push an update on your phone that would hack it to look like it's off I don't see why they would waste the time.




I assume that you could understand the driving conditions to form such a set of circumstances. I try not to make assumptions about how other entities value their resources, especially those who make it a point to let their motives be obscure.

Quote:

I mean how many people actually turn their cell phones off anyways?  Everyone I know just turns their ringer off and has their cell on all the time.




About once a month my alarm clock on my freaks the fuck out and won't stop. Other than that... Hell if I know. I don't think I've turned off my cell for anything other than 'problems' or to conserve battery life in years, if ever. This is why the assertions are scary.

Anyone who is paranoid enough to turn it off is probably paranoid enough to take out the battery. Now recording a conversation through a device that doesn't have power, that would be a trick.

Quote:

If someone is on to the cops to the point where they think they might remotely activate the mic they probably aren't going to take the chance of having any cell phone on them anyways.




Or wrap in in aluminum foil, or use a white noise generator, or have a physical kill switch for just such occasions. Then again, just cuz you aren't taking enough precautions doesn't mean you won't get popped either.

Quote:

It should also be pointed out that the only way the trick would work is if they pushed a hacked update on you and activated it before the cell was turned off.  Then your phone wouldn't really be off anyways, it would just look off.  So saying they can turn the mic on when your phone is off is just bullshit.  When a phone is really off it's not sending or receiving signals of any sort so there's no way it could be turned on remotely.




That's not entirely true. All electronic devices receive transmissions, regardless of their state. If they are truly 'off', then they just don't do anything.

Just because your radio is unplugged doesn't mean that it's not getting the radio signal, it's just not responding to the stimulus.

If you are familiar with computers, this could much work like a 'wake on lan' technology. When set up, you computer isn't 'off' when it is 'off', but rather everything (for the sake of argument) but the lan and some related hardware are "off". Once the lan card receives the correct signal, the computer begins to boot up.

Properly configured, your computer shouldn't 'wake up' from any ole internet traffic. Having the computer connected through a hub, for instance, shouldn't cause it to boot at the first incoming packet or some other ARP request for a DHCP server that wasn't intended for it.

If you have a PSP and a PS3, this is the same methodology that is used to wake up the PS3 when you launch remote play on the PSP (assuming it is configured as such).

The plausibility of such a condition is definitely there, I just choose not to freak the fuck out about a plausible scenario just because it 'could happen'. I have not yet seen any evidence that it is happening, nor do I have any evidence that it isn't.

I honestly do believe that it is happening, or inevitably will happen. I just like to pick on people who make absurd claims of public knowledge and then back them up with shitty citations upon request. As for the reasons listed above, I don't turn my phone off to keep from having my 'off the phone' conversation from being tapped, and if I did I would take out the battery.

There are ways of preventing such things from occurring, but as of today they are inconvenient at the least. Hopefully soon some kind soul will see the profit to be hand in having a secure mobile communication device.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Police Tapped Sprint Customer GPS Data 8 Million Times In A Year [Re: fundamentalchair]
    #11639146 - 12/12/09 08:59 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

When a radio is off it's off.  It isn't receiving anything.

To wake a cell phone that's off is impossible.  It's not recieving or processing any signals.  Most don't even have timer capabilities to wake up for alarms.  Unless you're continuously receiving and processing there's no way it could be woken up.

It's nothing like a PC that can wake on a packet.


-FF

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Re: Police Tapped Sprint Customer GPS Data 8 Million Times In A Year [Re: fastfred]
    #11639531 - 12/12/09 10:11 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Hey,

I just wanted to clarify, some of the information I posted was from a quick google search. I know this was all over the news back when the details were released in the hearing, but I really am not too sure of the origination of such claims, so they might be bullshit, I dont know.  I am not really paranoid about such things, as I dont think that I warrant any sort of investigation. I was just pointing out that we are in fact carrying mobile microphones and location devices in our pockets.

I respect all the points brought up here, I do not really disgree with anything here. About there being "no way" a phone can be woken up because it is not like a PC. My phone runs linux and has redundant data connections aswell as a faster processor than the PC I am posting from. While alot of phones do not operate in this way, it is naive to think they cant. I know typically WOL is used with wired connections but its hard to say for sure what can and cannot be done. I am pretty far off here though as I do understand the technology and I don't think anyone is really remotely turning phones on...

I think the real deal with the phones being "off" is a software hack that they pushed onto the phones to mimic the phone being off while still transmitting data. This is clearly different then the phone being off, and I did not mean for it to be disected this way. This point is almost null anyways because most phones these days are never turned off.

The original idea of my post was not to imply that the man is watching your every move, but that they do have the technology to do so if they choose. And by they, I really mean anyone with the resources to do so, whether it be government, your spouse, or google.

A little off topic, but I do also know that when you get in a car accident they can pull your cell phone records to see if you have been text messaging. If they see you were texting you can be charged additionally, same consequence as if you blew over the limit in Utah.

I just see alot of ignorance when it comes to technology in real life, and I hate seeing people act so naive thinking they are on top of the world. Not that anyone is listening/watching but it is possible and it does scare me a little bit to think about.


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