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Life Upon Death
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Re: Tell us all why you despise science [Re: Icelander]
#11599824 - 12/06/09 10:24 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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ya and theres a forum for science if you want to discuss everything in cold hard data
since when is philosophy about facts?
its about possibilitys and perspectives
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giza

Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 2,089
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Re: Tell us all why you despise science [Re: Icelander]
#11599826 - 12/06/09 10:24 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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science is a part of faith though isn't it? It just happens to be truth because how else would God prove something? with evidence of it, correct?
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Tell us all why you despise science [Re: Icelander]
#11599853 - 12/06/09 10:29 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: The debate here imo centers around people making claims about non material reality without reasonable evidence. It really can't be debated well in this forum. 
I agree, the debate is more about this- but also with regards to the opposite claim, that material reality is all that exists, without this being conclusive.
I am not saying all scientific minded people hold the view point that nothing exists beyond the material- but it is held by some, and I see these people in the wrong just as much as someone claiming a non-material reality as fact.
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Icelander
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Re: Tell us all why you despise science [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#11599867 - 12/06/09 10:31 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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IMO anyone claiming to know what is ultimately true or real is either arrogant, ignorant or terrified. Or maybe the combination.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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elementswrath
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Re: Tell us all why you despise science [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#11599922 - 12/06/09 10:39 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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the material world is all we objectively know exists, non material worlds are what we subjectively believe to exist.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Tell us all why you despise science [Re: elementswrath]
#11599927 - 12/06/09 10:40 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
elementswrath said: of course science is all about physical, you can't prove non physical things exist can you? you try finding something non-physical.
I can't prove it using the scientific method, nope.
But, I can say I have subjective experiences that I wish to integrate into my understanding- and in order to do this I must go beyond science, or decide it is unknowable.
Quote:
and live in a damn forest
I would.. but all the forests have been cut down(production of science)
But really, I like science and use it almost everyday- I got no beef with it. I love organic chemistry, I love quantum physics, I love to learn and science helps me with this, but science can't go everywhere I want to try and go- so sometimes I'll leave it behind until I come back.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Tell us all why you despise science [Re: Icelander]
#11599940 - 12/06/09 10:43 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: IMO anyone claiming to know what is ultimately true or real is either arrogant, ignorant or terrified. Or maybe the combination.
it seems sometimes the more I learn, the less I actually know.
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Icelander
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Re: Tell us all why you despise science [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#11599979 - 12/06/09 10:50 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah, I'm fully convinced I will only be able to guess about things. That doesn't mean that I should just follow whim. I do my best to be reasonable and look at whatever evidence is available. And then take a somewhat educated guess. If there is no evidence that I consider good then I put it all away for the time being. Really what good does it to in my life or for my happiness to try and make concrete decisions about things I can't get a handle on?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Tell us all why you despise science [Re: Icelander]
#11600030 - 12/06/09 11:00 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Haha. I have a recurring thought that occurs on my dmt trips, funny thing is even though I remember the thought process afterwards (like right now), when it is actually happening I forget I have gone through this before until I reach the final conclusion- then deja vu kicks in and everything snaps into place.. It goes something like this:
'I really enjoy philosophy and asking these deep questions.. but christ, I don't even think they have answers necessarily. All my focus on these questions may be completely irrelevent and pointless- in fact it most likely is.
Ah, but I enjoy the process of trying to answer the question. I don't even think I would be satisfied if I even reached a conclusion because what do I do after? I think I prefer to spend my life grappling with imponderables and unknowables.'
and then satisfied, I spend the rest of my day relaxed and thinking.
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elementswrath
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Re: Tell us all why you despise science [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#11600047 - 12/06/09 11:04 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I can't prove it using the scientific method, nope.
But, I can say I have subjective experiences that I wish to integrate into my understanding- and in order to do this I must go beyond science, or decide it is unknowable.
if it can't be proven objectively,then it's automatically a belief.
for example, i can say i saw a ghost. it's a subjective experience,but there is no way it can be proven for it has no connection to physical evidence proven of the materialistic world. so it renders it a belief.
however, a logical belief that has some connection to physical evidence is a theory.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Tell us all why you despise science [Re: elementswrath]
#11600099 - 12/06/09 11:17 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
elementswrath said: if it can't be proven objectively,then it's automatically a belief
Only according to the scientific method. I am of the opinion that this method is not the only valid approach to knowledge though.
I do not think that subjective experiences can be proven to others in the same way that objective experiences can be- but I do feel that I can investigate the validity of my own subjective experiences using rational thought, and despite the fact that any understanding I gain from my investigation will not be proveable to anyone else, this does not remove any validity I may have discovered for myself.
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elementswrath
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Re: Tell us all why you despise science [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#11600237 - 12/06/09 11:40 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Only according to the scientific method and according to the physical world. science is there to understand the physical world. I am of the opinion that this method is not the only valid approach to knowledge though. how so? science seems to me the only approach to valid knowledge, prove me wrong. for it is there to prove and disprove.
[gradient:#FF1919,#E81E1E]I do not think that subjective experiences can be proven to others in the same way that objective experiences can be- but I do feel that I can investigate the validity of my own subjective experiences using rational thought [/gradient]
how can it be valid if there isn't no evidence to back it up other that what you believe? it's like saying that the blue ball that i am holding is red, but it can't be valid because there isn't anything to back that up, so i can only believe it's red.
[gradient:#F51414,#F21818]despite the fact that any understanding I gain from my investigation will not be proveable to anyone else, this does not remove any validity I may have discovered for myself. [/gradient]
okay, what kind of investigation? a investigation that has no validity, no actual proof other than what you believe. it does remove validity, but doesn't remove valueto your belief.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Tell us all why you despise science [Re: elementswrath]
#11600419 - 12/07/09 12:19 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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science is there to understand the physical world. And I assure you, for all physical matters I turn to science.
how so? science seems to me the only approach to valid knowledge, prove me wrong. for it is there to prove and disprove. Not if by 'prove and disprove' you mean 'using the scientific method' for how I can prove to you something beyond the scientific method using the very method it is beyond.
how can it be valid if there isn't no evidence to back it up other that what you believe? Well, I have a rational mind, which is separate from the scientific method. I can use this rational mind to investigate what I observe subjectively. This rational investigation can lead to evidence towards some conclusion, or to further investigation. The only difference between this and the scientific method, imo, is that one deals with objective reality and one deals with subjective.
it's like saying that the blue ball that i am holding is red, but it can't be valid because there isn't anything to back that up, so i can only believe it's red. Well, if you are aware you are calling a blue ball red, that would be irrational and not what I am suggesting. Otherwise, what investigation did you preform other than look at the ball and declare it red? Simply stating a ball is red may be a belief, but I am talking about more in depth investigations.
okay, what kind of investigation? a investigation that has no validity, no actual proof other than what you believe. it does remove validity, but doesn't remove valueto your belief. Valid according to what method of ascertaining validity? Not the scientific method, but instead the investigative method being used.
Meditation is a good example of another method to gain valid knowledge. The meditative state is a subjective experience, yet the experience is a repeatable phenomena, and can undergo a fairly rigorous investigation. I don't expect understanding I gain from my meditative practice to be valid to you or anyone else, but just because it is not valid to you does not remove its validity for me. All the same, I am careful to not state anything I observe subjectively as objective facts- I am aware that they remain subjective truths.
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elementswrath
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Re: Tell us all why you despise science [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#11600541 - 12/07/09 12:49 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Not if by 'prove and disprove' you mean 'using the scientific method' for how I can prove to you something beyond the scientific method using the very method it is beyond. what would that method be?
Well, I have a rational mind, which is separate from the scientific method. I can use this rational mind to investigate what I observe subjectively. This rational investigation can lead to evidence towards some conclusion, or to further investigation. The only difference between this and the scientific method, imo, is that one deals with objective reality and one deals with subjective. rational thoughts is assets from the scientific method. like i said earlier "saying a blue ball is red" is irrational, because it doesn't have any valid assets. what you observe objectively has a lot of influence of what you learned subjectively. thank you for proving my point.
Well, if you are aware you are calling a blue ball red, that would be irrational and not what I am suggesting. Otherwise, what investigation did you preform other than look at the ball and declare it red? Simply stating a ball is red may be a belief, but I am talking about more in depth investigations.
yes it would be what you are suggesting, because without any scientific method any thought is irrational and your saying to have a rational mind. tell me more of these "depth investigations" and the method you are using for them.
Valid according to what method of ascertaining validity? Not the scientific method, but instead the investigative method being used.
Meditation is a good example of another method to gain valid knowledge. The meditative state is a subjective experience, yet the experience is a repeatable phenomena, and can undergo a fairly rigorous investigation. I don't expect understanding I gain from my meditative practice to be valid to you or anyone else, but just because it is not valid to you does not remove its validity for me. All the same, I am careful to not state anything I observe subjectively as objective facts- I am aware that they remain subjective truths.
again, explain these methods of "investigative". tell me how it's a "repeatable phenomena" because a lot of people tell me different experiences through meditation. if something is only "valid" to you then it's a belief.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Tell us all why you despise science [Re: elementswrath]
#11600565 - 12/07/09 12:54 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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If there is nothing beyond the scientific method.. may I ask what you used to prove the scientific method as valid?
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Tell us all why you despise science [Re: elementswrath]
#11600574 - 12/07/09 12:57 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
elementswrath said: because without any scientific method any thought is irrational
I'm not sure how you can ever know anything then.. if this is true.
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elementswrath
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Re: Tell us all why you despise science [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#11600590 - 12/07/09 01:01 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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scientific method is just a general title for acquiring knowledge and using it.
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elementswrath
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Re: Tell us all why you despise science [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#11600597 - 12/07/09 01:03 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:
elementswrath said: because without any scientific method any thought is irrational
I'm not sure how you can ever know anything then.. if this is true.
i don't think you know what science means.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science
saying that you are not using science means you aren't using knowledge making it irrational.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Tell us all why you despise science [Re: elementswrath]
#11600601 - 12/07/09 01:04 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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You didn't answer my question. How do you know the scientific method is valid?
We have no rationality outside of the scientific method(according to you)- so either you used irrational logic to ascertain its validity as a method of gaining knowledge, or you used the scientific method, which would be begging the question.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Tell us all why you despise science [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#11600628 - 12/07/09 01:12 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I know what science includes, trust me.. I'm not some fundamentalist arguing against science. Up until last year I was a chemistry major- then I decided if I continued spending hours all days studying chemistry books, I would end up hating chemistry so I switched out.
Quote:
Science (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") is, in its broadest sense, any systematic knowledge-base or prescriptive practice that is capable of resulting in a prediction or predictable type of outcome.
In its more restricted contemporary sense, science is a system of acquiring knowledge based on scientific method, and to the organized body of knowledge gained through such research.
From your link. I don't see where this says science is all knowledge, but specific types of knowledge.
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