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Offlinesam420
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #11603676 - 12/07/09 02:02 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I'm willing to bet it's safe at moderate levels until you get fat fucks eating loads of it.

Like if I eat normal food and occasionally chew gum. Fine. But if I put ten sweeteners in my coffee and drink three coffees a day while whacking off to the McDonald's advert, I'm probably gonna get cancer


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OfflineFlickeryVision
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #11603679 - 12/07/09 02:02 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

makaveli8x8 said:
so should we let old crazy people eat rat poison then?  or young crazy people?  were does crazy and stupid and sane have the line drawn



76+ = insane


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #11603769 - 12/07/09 02:14 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

makaveli8x8 said:
so should we let old crazy people eat rat poison then?  or young crazy people?  were does crazy and stupid and sane have the line drawn



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informed_consent
Quote:

In order to give informed consent, the individual concerned must have adequate reasoning faculties and be in possession of all relevant facts at the time consent is given. Impairments to reasoning and judgement which would make it impossible for someone to give informed consent include such factors as severe mental retardation, severe mental illness, intoxication, severe sleep deprivation, Alzheimer's disease, or being in a coma.

Some acts cannot legally take place because of a lack of informed consent. In cases where an individual is considered unable to give informed consent, another person is generally authorized to give consent on his behalf, e.g., parents or legal guardians of a child and caregivers for the mentally ill.




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InvisiblePassiveAgressive
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: future primitive]
    #11603862 - 12/07/09 02:26 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

future primitive said:
it's not a restriction of freedoms, it's refraining from putting known poisons in foods.

Its' also not pseudoscience, which is a word someone wanted to use in my "ratings" to sound smart. you aren't. you might be able to fool the majority, but you're not fooling me. I haven't insulted anyone. the fact that you're defending these substances speaks volumes about what kind of person you are. a) you're not very smart or b) you feel threatened by discussion and free thought.




:cheers: Well stated :cheers:


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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: Entropymancer]
    #11603863 - 12/07/09 02:26 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

nice, but that wasnt what i was getting at.  theres people out there that arnt smart enough to make good descissions , some people that dont understand...yet they are incharge of making these choices.  the IQ range of people in american spans a very wide range.

you can tell people all about these drugs and they still dont have the slightest clue.  and when they get a tumor or cancer...they finally realize....


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OfflineFlickeryVision
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #11603883 - 12/07/09 02:29 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

makaveli8x8 said:
so should we let old crazy people eat rat poison then?  or young crazy people?  were does crazy and stupid and sane have the line drawn



right-o buddy, because of ones inability to distinguish between the retarted part of our society and that of the sane, we should treat everyone like a fucking retard; awesome thinking! :thumbup:


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InvisiblePassiveAgressive
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: FlickeryVision]
    #11604016 - 12/07/09 02:50 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I guess the luanuage I chose was mistaken. The fact that I used the word "legal" was obviously in error. I guess I took a lesson in sociology, psychology as well as linguistics. I would substitue the word "legal" with "available". I should edit that right now. :grin:


--------------------
 
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Thousands of candles can be lit from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened.
Happiness never decreases by being shared. - Prince Gautama Siddharta, the founder of Buddhism, 563-483 B.C.


Edited by PassiveAgressive (12/07/09 02:57 PM)


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Offline13.step
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: PassiveAgressive]
    #11604082 - 12/07/09 03:01 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

It's to late man...this ship has sunk a long time ago...:failboat:


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OfflineFlickeryVision
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: 13.step]
    #11604091 - 12/07/09 03:02 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

EPIC THREAD FAIL.


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Anyone in the Netherlands or London, UK looking to sell :sanpedro: or :peyotespectrum: just :pm:


Edited by FlickeryVision (12/07/09 03:03 PM)


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OfflineTedwilto
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: FlickeryVision]
    #11604178 - 12/07/09 03:15 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Ive the last 3 or 4 pages of this and im not too sure where i stand. Im somewhere in between entropymancer and whoever he was arguing. More on entropymancers side though. I think it shouldnt be so readily used in our foods today but that has nothing to do with banning it. It should enter some companys moral compass when they decide to use aspartame instead of sugar but that is neither here nor there. All in all i dont really have much of a point here.

:strokebeard:

:popcorn:


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: PassiveAgressive]
    #11604345 - 12/07/09 03:34 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

makaveli8x8 said:
nice, but that wasnt what i was getting at.  theres people out there that arnt smart enough to make good descissions , some people that dont understand...yet they are incharge of making these choices.  the IQ range of people in american spans a very wide range.

you can tell people all about these drugs and they still dont have the slightest clue.  and when they get a tumor or cancer...they finally realize....



I'm really not seeing a problem here. If they have a mental disability, then the situation is no different than things are now. A functional 21 year old person with a mental handicap can buy beer. If we allow them to make the decision to buy beer, we ought to allow them to decide whether to consume aspartame.  If they're too handicapped (or dementia-stricken) to function independently, a caregiver makes such decisions for them.

If someone is just garden-variety stupid, that's their deal. If someone gorges themselves on my clearly and accurately labelled nicotine truffles (2 mg nicotine per 1 oz truffle), they're fully responsible for the consequences of their own actions.

I'm all for providing the customer with tools to make an informed decision.  All additives clearly listed on packages.  Information on where to find the FDA's recommendations on a particular additive and the data on which it was based. Additives on which the data is insufficient to make a recommendation clearly noted as such in eye-catching neon colors on the package. All good ideas.  Hell, even have a Dietician General's Warning on the labels of products with questionable additives.

But ultimately it is up to me, as a consumer, to decide what products to consume.  I don't appreciate having that right taken from me.  I hate aspartame anyway, so that one wouldn't affect me... but that's not the point.  The point is that people have legitimate disagreements about what is safe to eat, and neither party has any right to force their opinions on the entire population.

Example: Someone earlier in this thread opined that MSG is a neurotoxin and should be banned from food.  I, on the other hand, do not believe it's ethical to legally deny people the right to purchase beef or pork (which both contain MSG)... and furthermore, the data on the health effects of MSG does not concern me. I have no problem consuming it as a food additive in reasonable quantities to make stuff taste good.  To deny me the right to buy or sell MSG-laced miso soup is a gross violation of my liberty.



We can't child-proof our entire society to keep morons from hurting themselves. Consider this warning label:

Call me crazy or cruel, but that warning simply doesn't seem necessary (I know, ironic considering how gung-ho I am about fair and accurate labeling of products). But really, I think anyone (besides the extremely mentally handicapped) can accurately assess the expected outcomes of cramming a screwdriver up their urethra, and plan their actions accordingly. If they choose to insert it in their urethra, THEY are responsible for the consequences, NOT the manufacturer (regardless of the presence or absence of the warning label)


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: Tedwilto]
    #11604379 - 12/07/09 03:39 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

PassiveAgressive said:
I guess the luanuage I chose was mistaken. The fact that I used the word "legal" was obviously in error. I guess I took a lesson in sociology, psychology as well as linguistics. I would substitue the word "legal" with "available". I should edit that right now. :grin:



I don't understand the difference.

You think that aspartame should be unavailable. The only way to achieve that is through legislative sanctions (read: making it illegal to sell aspartame-containing products on the open market).

You're still just another prohibitionist, advocating a breach of my civil liberty, and I'd appreciate it if you cut it out already.

You're free to forfeit your liberties if you so choose. You are not free to forfeit mine.

Quote:

Tedwilto said:
I think it shouldnt be so readily used in our foods today but that has nothing to do with banning it.



Precisely.


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InvisiblePassiveAgressive
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: Entropymancer]
    #11608680 - 12/08/09 03:29 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

The buying of beer, cigarettes, marijuana, etc. are generally done with the dual understanding that 1) these products come along with clearly understood health risks; 2) these products impart some accepted and understood benefit to the user, measurable or otherwise 3)THEY ARE NOT FOOD ITEMS.  The benefit is not measurable in the case of beer and cigarettes but that does not take away from the known facts and the fact that children are barred from their consumption. Food is apparently omit from this safe-guard in our society. It's accepted by default to put known poisons into the food so long as they 1) substitute a natural product and 2) may kill gradually as opposed to acutely. This is sad.

Beer, cig's, MJ etc. all have a rather significant backing for their use, sale and pending or the maintenance of their possible and currant legalization. This seems the answer to my question. The answer is disenfranchisement, confusion, ignorance, greed, fear and ultimate laziness on the parts of the people. The people's failure to stand against the adding of little understood chemicals for the sake of preservation and dieting will continue on behalf of those reasons I mentioned (mainly default) and at this rate can only serve the government and allies in the long run.

This thread was an epic failure. Not only did it apparently anger some voices on the shroomery, it also seems to have confused some (my fault) and subsequently unleashed some rather vocal berserkers attacking me, each other, the internet, public broadcast and anything else unfortunately within their rational. This speaks on the broader audience of the Shroomery and especially it's moderation. Shit does roll downhill but must start nearer the top than bottom. Minor and easily addressed questions like the one I posed should NEVER pit friend on friend, ally on ally. If we know you're angry you fail, you're wrong in more ways than I care to write. You'll solve nothing and will embolden the opposition of your case nearly every time. This is a great tactic to use within your enemies camp, not within your own for God's sake.

Thanks to you all who added to this thread with some intelligent and well thought reply or another. No thanks to those who had a hand in this thread turning into something from the intestines of the OTD forum (no admonition of mine.) I've had enough, put this thread out of it's misery, it's suffering. :facepalm:


:lockdance:


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Thousands of candles can be lit from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened.
Happiness never decreases by being shared. - Prince Gautama Siddharta, the founder of Buddhism, 563-483 B.C.


Edited by PassiveAgressive (12/08/09 03:32 AM)


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InvisiblePassiveAgressive
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: Entropymancer]
    #11608733 - 12/08/09 03:54 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Entropymancer said:
Quote:

PassiveAgressive said:
I guess the luanuage I chose was mistaken. The fact that I used the word "legal" was obviously in error. I guess I took a lesson in sociology, psychology as well as linguistics. I would substitue the word "legal" with "available". I should edit that right now. :grin:



I don't understand the difference.

You think that aspartame should be unavailable. The only way to achieve that is through legislative sanctions (read: making it illegal to sell aspartame-containing products on the open market).

You're still just another prohibitionist, advocating a breach of my civil liberty, and I'd appreciate it if you cut it out already.

You're free to forfeit your liberties if you so choose. You are not free to forfeit mine.

Quote:

Tedwilto said:
I think it shouldnt be so readily used in our foods today but that has nothing to do with banning it.



Precisely.




I usually won't take the time to clear up simple issues like this, but in the case of a MOD I'm sorry, I cannot help but to correct you as it is my civil duty to correct MY authorities when they find themselves in need.

I NEVER STATED MY INTENTIONS ONCE, YOU HAVE DONE THAT FOR ME (this is known as power of attorney or in the case of non-consent, tyranny.) Yes, you as well as others have continually assumed what I mean by my words. Rarely have I been asked. This is also known as putting words in mouth. The title of this thread is followed by two question marks. I now realize that the confusion was not on my behalf. I guess I am fortunate the masses post in a hurry and post before me, lest I look like the fool.

After generalizing me (falsely) I should otherwise be more committed to the opposite of your goals, fortunately I have nary the time nor want, this is of no benefit to me and we are in the same camp. It would have taken but 5 seconds for you to look into my posts and gallery to decide what you stated as fact, quote;  "You're still just another prohibitionist," was obviously grossly mistaken. Before you again go off high on horse and decide to rip into others and wildly assume do make sure that you know what your speaking about.

If I was wrong in posting a question then you are more-so by the nature and manner of your response. This thread, again, began it's life as a question and was subsequently assumed as debate. If this is true then the rules of debate are to be adhered to and this thread needs to be moved accordingly. The Fallacies of Philosophical Debate.

As you go on to further defend your civil liberties, do make sure to at least remain "civil," or else where is the liberty?


Google define:liberty

Liberty; immunity from arbitrary exercise of authority: political independence





PS - Entropymancer- :grin: Should I shake the left jar yet?



Edited by PassiveAgressive (12/08/09 04:09 AM)


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InvisiblePassiveAgressive
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: PassiveAgressive]
    #11608758 - 12/08/09 04:20 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Defending your genius. - Randy Gage.

It's short and worthy, please take the time to self educate. Take note of the "political in-fighting" comments, they are applicable here.

FYI - “Jealousy is the tribute mediocrity pays to genius” – Bishop Duncan Oldham

In what is seen, there should be just the seen;
In what is heard, there should be just the heard;
In what is sensed, there should be just the sensed;
In what is thought, there should be just the thought.

-The Buddha


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Thousands of candles can be lit from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened.
Happiness never decreases by being shared. - Prince Gautama Siddharta, the founder of Buddhism, 563-483 B.C.


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: PassiveAgressive]
    #11610881 - 12/08/09 04:32 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

My apologies for assuming you support prohibition.  You're right, it would have been wrong to make that assumption based on your question. But that was not my basis for making that assumption. Consider the following quotes:

Quote:

PassiveAgressive said:
I NEVER STATED MY INTENTIONS ONCE, YOU HAVE DONE THAT FOR ME



Quote:

PassiveAgressive said:
Aspartame should be a schedule I substance



Care to explain how you both believe that it should be a Schedule I substance, but shouldn't be prohibited from inclusion in food products?

You'll have to pardon my confusion, but usually when someone says that a substance should be scheduled, it means that they think it should be scheduled. I'm honestly not seeing any way to interpret that statement other than an advocation of prohibition.

Again, I apologize if this assumption was unwarranted, but considering the quote above, you have to understand my basis for it.



Regardless, let me take a brief moment to address the question at face value:

Quote:

With the overwhelming evidence that aspartame is a known carcinogen amongst other things how is it that this scourge still frequents can's of soda etc?




It should first be noted that the question is impossible to answer as it stands, as it's based on an invalid presupposition.  The evidence that aspartame is a carcinogen in humans is not overwhelming; it's ambiguous, thus subject to interpretation.  Two highly qualified people could independently analyze the available data and legitimately draw very different conclusions.

If we postulate that this initial clause is true, then the answer boils down to three main points. (a.) Lots of people like to drink diet sodas sweetened with aspartame; (b.) Profit incentive for manufacturers... this follows directly from consumer demand; (c.) Legislators who like to protect people from themselves haven't got around to it yet.




And again, you'll have to pardon my confusion, but I'm not able to comprehend your position here:
Quote:

The buying of beer, cigarettes, marijuana, etc. are generally done with the dual understanding that 1) these products come along with clearly understood health risks; 2) these products impart some accepted and understood benefit to the user, measurable or otherwise 3)THEY ARE NOT FOOD ITEMS.



As far as I can tell, none of these distinctions have any bearing on the points made by myself or by others in this thread who oppose prohibition.  Could you at least clarify whether you agree with my basic principle? (That principle being: I believe in individual liberty to whatever extent that it does not harm non-consenting parties)

If you disagree with that principle, then I believe I understand where you're coming from.  If not, could you clarify the relevance that those distinctions have in demonstrating that choosing to purchase food with a potentially harmful additive harms non-consenting parties?




I'm not a Pub mod, so I'm unable to lock the thread.  You can notify one to lock the thread by hitting the .

Also, a very small sidenote: Attacking someone's character without allowing them the chance to respond (as would have occurred if a Pub mod had seen that post first) is not very polite.  I welcome candid criticism, but when the criticism is based on incorrect assumptions (eg. your assumption that my understanding that you support prohibition was based solely on the question posed in the original post), I feel I ought to be able to respond to it.  Even if the criticism is entirely valid, I want to be able to respond to it, if only to thank the one offering criticism for their opinions and concerns.


I'm sorry you don't believe my opinions to be intelligent or well thought... perhaps you feel that way simply because you disagree?  I'll admit, there's probably an analogy or two I gave that doesn't hold under intense scrutiny, but that's why I only use them to elucidate my central thesis (which I've put a great deal of thought into, and was sure to express without analogy several times).


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Offlinehidenseek
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: Entropymancer]
    #11611232 - 12/08/09 05:27 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

i cant believe people in here like aspartame, i think theres only one or 2 pops with aspartame that i like, and i think it gives me a slight headache


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Invisiblenowwhoutthink
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: hidenseek]
    #11611337 - 12/08/09 05:41 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

this thread is Still goin...:smirk:


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OfflineLife Upon Death
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: hidenseek]
    #11611620 - 12/08/09 06:12 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

hidenseek said:
i cant believe people in here like aspartame, i think theres only one or 2 pops with aspartame that i like, and i think it gives me a slight headache




ya I know its fucking disgusting

my mom is addicted to it

she still can't stop even though its making her sick and she feels better without it


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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: Entropymancer]
    #11613567 - 12/08/09 10:55 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

bump











lol, just kidding. sorry about my little outburst. i expected to get flamed.

i just get angry when i feel that people refuse to acknowledge my points.

but anyway, i obviously don't want to talk about it anymore.


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