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OfflineEpigallo
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Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: Entropymancer]
    #11600411 - 12/07/09 12:17 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Jesus fucking Christ. Way to pick one sentence and twist my words whilst ignoring my entire page of rebuttals.

In a regulated market you still have the right to ingest any substance, but the convenience of your choice to harm yourself is sacrificed for the convenience of others to live healthily. So sorry you can't get rat poison served in your mashed potatoes. You can still go buy it, and this small inconvenience will save lives of those who are not so meticulous in their selections.

That's fair. Sacrificing the convenience to make healthy choices for the convenience of those who want to harm themselves is insane.


Edited by Epigallo (12/07/09 12:19 AM)


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: Epigallo]
    #11600423 - 12/07/09 12:19 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I didn't ignore your page of rebuttals, I just felt that my response sufficiently addressed all of them :shrug:

And sorry, but I don't agree with sacrificing basic freedoms to save a few people who are dumb enough to eat rat poison in their mashed potatoes. In fact, I fully encourage people who are dumb enough to eat rat poison in their mashed potatoes to do so!

Like I've said, I fully support regulation through labeling. By all means, give people tools to help them in making informed decisions. But I do not support regulation that makes products explicitly unavailable by appealing to the ignorance of the masses.


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: Epigallo]
    #11600446 - 12/07/09 12:26 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
So sorry you can't get rat poison served in your mashed potatoes. You can still go buy it, and this small inconvenience will save lives of those who are not so meticulous in their selections.



So where do you draw the line?

"So sorry you can't get your cigarettes. You can still grow tobacco, flue-cure it, and roll your own smokes. This small inconvenience will save the lives of those who are not so meticulous in their selections"?


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: Entropymancer]
    #11600451 - 12/07/09 12:28 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I didn't ignore your page of rebuttals, I just felt that my response sufficiently addressed all of them :shrug:




Not, it didn't, at all.

I am so fucking pissed off. Answer my taco question, for example. The one by the discussion of tacos.

Okay, sorry. Losing my temper here. This one:
Quote:


And I fully support that they be required to label their food products as such. That's kind of implicit in allowing the consumer to make an informed decision (or not, as the consumer sees fit).

Not sure what you're getting at here, as restaurants don't label ingredients, but they are regulated by health departments, so... try again. Would you rather those 20 drops not be regulated by the local health department?




Edited by Epigallo (12/07/09 12:35 AM)


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: Entropymancer]
    #11600459 - 12/07/09 12:31 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Entropymancer said:
Quote:

bradley said:
So sorry you can't get rat poison served in your mashed potatoes. You can still go buy it, and this small inconvenience will save lives of those who are not so meticulous in their selections.



So where do you draw the line?

"So sorry you can't get your cigarettes. You can still grow tobacco, flue-cure it, and roll your own smokes. This small inconvenience will save the lives of those who are not so meticulous in their selections"?




Tobacco is not an additive that is inserted into food, which is a distinction I have brought up between illegalization and regulation many times.

I'm going to bed.


Edited by Epigallo (12/07/09 12:32 AM)


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: Epigallo]
    #11600503 - 12/07/09 12:41 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
Tobacco is not an additive that is inserted into food



Yeah, you know why? Because it's ILLEGAL to add it to food. Which is bullshit. 

I think nicotine-laced truffles would be :omgawesome::drooling:



Quote:

Quote:

And I fully support that they be required to label their food products as such. That's kind of implicit in allowing the consumer to make an informed decision (or not, as the consumer sees fit).




Not sure what you're getting at here, as restaurants don't label ingredients, but they are regulated by health departments, so... try again. Would you rather those 20 drops not be regulated by the local health department?




I thought what I'm getting at should be clear considering the number of times that I've mentioned proper labeling as the primary means of legitimate regulation.

Yes, I'd prefer that some random local health department NOT tell me what I can and cannot be served in a dining establishment.  I'd much prefer that such information be made available to me as a consumer through proper labeling (eg. by including the info on the menu), and I can decide for myself whether or not I want to eat it.


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: Entropymancer]
    #11601792 - 12/07/09 08:53 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

So everyone would go into restaurants, sit at a terminal for a couple hours and research whatever additives, then make their orders. Sounds realistic. Would they also do their own kitchen inspections to uphold their right to a consensual agreement for food-made-in-a-dirty-kitchen? I would be pretty fucking pissed if the health department took away that freedom of choice.


Quote:

Yeah, you know why? Because it's ILLEGAL to add it to food. Which is bullshit.


 

It's bullshit to sacrifice the ease of obtaining safe food for those who want to easily obtain dangerous food. This trade-off is what you have ignored in every one of your arguments.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Posts: 56,232
Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: Epigallo]
    #11601807 - 12/07/09 08:58 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

The majority of people will favor purchasing food that does not contain dangerous additives, thus there will be more stores that sell this type of food to meet the demand.  What's bullshit is you making it illegal for me to patronize a store that sells the type of food that I want with the additives that I request.  :shrug:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: Epigallo]
    #11601891 - 12/07/09 09:22 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

bradley said:


Quote:

Yeah, you know why? Because it's ILLEGAL to add it to food. Which is bullshit.


 

It's bullshit to sacrifice the ease of obtaining safe food for those who want to easily obtain dangerous food. This trade-off is what you have ignored in every one of your arguments.




But its easy as hell to obtain either right now.


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: deCypher]
    #11601925 - 12/07/09 09:26 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The majority of people will favor purchasing food that does not contain dangerous additives, thus there will be more stores that sell this type of food to meet the demand.




Bullshit back at you. People have eaten trans fats like crazy for years, and there is ample supply and demand. There's a good chance it is any package of food you pick up. However, it is one of the most well-known, researched (proven harmful) compounds. How well do you think consumer choice on 3,000+ lesser known additives would work out, if they fail to behave like your prediction for one that is well-known?


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: DieCommie]
    #11601932 - 12/07/09 09:28 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

bradley said:


Quote:

Yeah, you know why? Because it's ILLEGAL to add it to food. Which is bullshit.


 

It's bullshit to sacrifice the ease of obtaining safe food for those who want to easily obtain dangerous food. This trade-off is what you have ignored in every one of your arguments.




But its easy as hell to obtain either right now.




The market is regulated right now. Is your comment suppose to prove something?


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: Epigallo]
    #11601937 - 12/07/09 09:29 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

That goes to show that the majority of the public either doesn't know or doesn't care that they're eating trans fats, probably because food made with trans fats tastes better than food that isn't.  All I know is that I avoid eating food with trans fats because it's unhealthy and that anyone else has the option of doing the same if they don't want to eat trans fats, but I'm not going to unfairly restrict the rights of my fellow citizens to eat food with trans fats if they so choose.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: deCypher]
    #11601992 - 12/07/09 09:38 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

How do you think that refutes my argument? If a large percentage of the population is unaware that they are eating trans fats, how well would an unregulated market of 3,000+ additives would work for the population?

Also, I don't have nearly as much freedom as a consumer to buy good food when half of it contains trans fats. Freedom is not either/or, but a matter of degrees.


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InvisibleGumby
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: Epigallo]
    #11602442 - 12/07/09 11:07 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I can't believe this thread is still going. People are still adamant about spewing bullshit pseudoscience? Get over it folks.

Can we talk about chemtrails now? That was more entertaining


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Offlinefuture primitive
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Registered: 12/06/09
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: Gumby]
    #11602449 - 12/07/09 11:10 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

FOR GOD SAKES --- ENTERTAIN THIS PERSON!!!!


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InvisibledeCypher
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Posts: 56,232
Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: Epigallo]
    #11602469 - 12/07/09 11:14 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
How do you think that refutes my argument? If a large percentage of the population is unaware that they are eating trans fats, how well would an unregulated market of 3,000+ additives would work for the population?

Also, I don't have nearly as much freedom as a consumer to buy good food when half of it contains trans fats. Freedom is not either/or, but a matter of degrees.




So sponsor groups to get the information about aspartame and/or add warning labels to the food.  Education is the name of the game here, not restriction of freedoms.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: Epigallo]
    #11602531 - 12/07/09 11:24 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
So everyone would go into restaurants, sit at a terminal for a couple hours and research whatever additives, then make their orders. Sounds realistic.



Yeah, right...:rolleyes:

Either that, or restaurants would just use pure ingredients and limit their chemical additives to the handful that people know by name. But I guess that'd be too obvious?

Quote:

Would they also do their own kitchen inspections to uphold their right to a consensual agreement for food-made-in-a-dirty-kitchen? I would be pretty fucking pissed if the health department took away that freedom of choice.




Have I ever objected to health code inspections to verify that appropriate kitchen practices are used in preparing the food? Ingredients and kitchen cleanliness are two completely separate issues.  Although if an establishment wishes to serve food from an unclean kitchen, I don't see any problem with them doing so as long as that fact is made clear to the consumer.

Quote:

Quote:

Yeah, you know why? Because it's ILLEGAL to add it to food. Which is bullshit.


 

It's bullshit to sacrifice the ease of obtaining safe food for those who want to easily obtain dangerous food. This trade-off is what you have ignored in every one of your arguments.




I haven't ignored it, I simply don't respect or agree with it. Haven't I made that clear by now?  In case you missed it, I'll say it again: an appeal to mass ignorance is NOT a legitimate justification for infringing en masse upon civil liberties (it is, however, the same basic argument that underpins the war on drugs).  I welcome you to migrate to a socialist dictatorship if you object to the basic principle of civil liberties.

Furthermore, I don't see how your argument applies at all to the case I'm talking about: tobacco as a food additive. Why in the fuck should I be allowed to buy a pack of cigs, but  NOT allowed to buy a tobacco-laced truffle or energy drink?  I don't get the logic, and I vociferously object to the principle.

Quote:

bradley said:
How do you think that refutes my argument? If a large percentage of the population is unaware that they are eating trans fats, how well would an unregulated market of 3,000+ additives would work for the population?



To me, that sounds like a strong indication that it'd work very well indeed!

Quote:

Also, I don't have nearly as much freedom as a consumer to buy good food when half of it contains trans fats.



Bullshit.  The government is not telling you that you CANNOT buy food without trans fats. It simply happens that there is a high demand for trans-fatty foods, so there are a lot of them on the market.

Your point doesn't even make any sense! It's like a lebanese person claiming that McDonalds is impinging on their freedom to buy baba ghanoush.

Sorry bub, if you can't handle the concept that supply and demand dictates the distribution of products in the marketplace, you might want to check out a totalitarian socialist state. From the thrust of your arguments, it really sounds like you'd be happier there.

Quote:

Freedom is not either/or, but a matter of degrees.



BULLSHIT!

Either black people count as a person, or they don't. Or did you support the 3/5ths clause as a reasonable and moderate approach?

Either I can legally possess cannabis, or I can't. Or do you support minor decriminalization (getting the equivalent of a traffic ticket for possession <1 oz) as a reasonable and moderate approach?

Either gays can get married, or they can't.


Right now, I can't buy tobacco-based food products. Someone in this thread has opined that I shouldn't be allowed to buy MSG-laced food products in the future.

Sorry, but freedoms are black and white. You can have shades of black and shades of white (non-prohibitive regulation), but it's still either black or white. There are no shades of gray here.


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Offlinefuture primitive
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Registered: 12/06/09
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: deCypher]
    #11602538 - 12/07/09 11:25 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

it's not a restriction of freedoms, it's refraining from putting known poisons in foods.

Its' also not pseudoscience, which is a word someone wanted to use in my "ratings" to sound smart. you aren't. you might be able to fool the majority, but you're not fooling me. I haven't insulted anyone. the fact that you're defending these substances speaks volumes about what kind of person you are. a) you're not very smart or b) you feel threatened by discussion and free thought.


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: Gumby]
    #11602548 - 12/07/09 11:27 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Gumby said:
I can't believe this thread is still going. People are still adamant about spewing bullshit pseudoscience? Get over it folks.

Can we talk about chemtrails now? That was more entertaining



You missed it, the conversation has now switched to whether the basic principle of prohibition is justified.  Bradley's arguing that the government ought to tell me what food products I can and cannot buy, and seems to be getting upset that people object to this idea. We've got ourselves an aspiring Anslinger up in this thread!
:mustardaccident:


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InvisibledeCypher
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Posts: 56,232
Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: future primitive]
    #11602547 - 12/07/09 11:27 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

future primitive said:
it's not a restriction of freedoms, it's refraining from putting known poisons in foods.




Foods are sold without aspartame.  You are free to purchase these.  Foods are sold with aspartame.  You are also free to purchase these.

You're trying to restrict my freedom to purchase something, clear and simple.  Advocate putting warning labels on foods that contain toxic substances if you want but don't prevent me from buying something if I want to.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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