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OfflineIstigkeit
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: PassiveAgressive]
    #11584212 - 12/04/09 02:25 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

PassiveAgressive said:












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Invisiblegrewya
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: snoot]
    #11588031 - 12/05/09 01:11 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

:lol:



--------------------
Poor kids are just as bright and just as talented as white kids.  - Joe Biden


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: Epigallo]
    #11600503 - 12/07/09 12:41 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
Tobacco is not an additive that is inserted into food



Yeah, you know why? Because it's ILLEGAL to add it to food. Which is bullshit. 

I think nicotine-laced truffles would be :omgawesome::drooling:



Quote:

Quote:

And I fully support that they be required to label their food products as such. That's kind of implicit in allowing the consumer to make an informed decision (or not, as the consumer sees fit).




Not sure what you're getting at here, as restaurants don't label ingredients, but they are regulated by health departments, so... try again. Would you rather those 20 drops not be regulated by the local health department?




I thought what I'm getting at should be clear considering the number of times that I've mentioned proper labeling as the primary means of legitimate regulation.

Yes, I'd prefer that some random local health department NOT tell me what I can and cannot be served in a dining establishment.  I'd much prefer that such information be made available to me as a consumer through proper labeling (eg. by including the info on the menu), and I can decide for myself whether or not I want to eat it.


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: PassiveAgressive]
    #11604345 - 12/07/09 03:34 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

makaveli8x8 said:
nice, but that wasnt what i was getting at.  theres people out there that arnt smart enough to make good descissions , some people that dont understand...yet they are incharge of making these choices.  the IQ range of people in american spans a very wide range.

you can tell people all about these drugs and they still dont have the slightest clue.  and when they get a tumor or cancer...they finally realize....



I'm really not seeing a problem here. If they have a mental disability, then the situation is no different than things are now. A functional 21 year old person with a mental handicap can buy beer. If we allow them to make the decision to buy beer, we ought to allow them to decide whether to consume aspartame.  If they're too handicapped (or dementia-stricken) to function independently, a caregiver makes such decisions for them.

If someone is just garden-variety stupid, that's their deal. If someone gorges themselves on my clearly and accurately labelled nicotine truffles (2 mg nicotine per 1 oz truffle), they're fully responsible for the consequences of their own actions.

I'm all for providing the customer with tools to make an informed decision.  All additives clearly listed on packages.  Information on where to find the FDA's recommendations on a particular additive and the data on which it was based. Additives on which the data is insufficient to make a recommendation clearly noted as such in eye-catching neon colors on the package. All good ideas.  Hell, even have a Dietician General's Warning on the labels of products with questionable additives.

But ultimately it is up to me, as a consumer, to decide what products to consume.  I don't appreciate having that right taken from me.  I hate aspartame anyway, so that one wouldn't affect me... but that's not the point.  The point is that people have legitimate disagreements about what is safe to eat, and neither party has any right to force their opinions on the entire population.

Example: Someone earlier in this thread opined that MSG is a neurotoxin and should be banned from food.  I, on the other hand, do not believe it's ethical to legally deny people the right to purchase beef or pork (which both contain MSG)... and furthermore, the data on the health effects of MSG does not concern me. I have no problem consuming it as a food additive in reasonable quantities to make stuff taste good.  To deny me the right to buy or sell MSG-laced miso soup is a gross violation of my liberty.



We can't child-proof our entire society to keep morons from hurting themselves. Consider this warning label:

Call me crazy or cruel, but that warning simply doesn't seem necessary (I know, ironic considering how gung-ho I am about fair and accurate labeling of products). But really, I think anyone (besides the extremely mentally handicapped) can accurately assess the expected outcomes of cramming a screwdriver up their urethra, and plan their actions accordingly. If they choose to insert it in their urethra, THEY are responsible for the consequences, NOT the manufacturer (regardless of the presence or absence of the warning label)


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InvisiblePassiveAgressive
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: Entropymancer]
    #11608733 - 12/08/09 03:54 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Entropymancer said:
Quote:

PassiveAgressive said:
I guess the luanuage I chose was mistaken. The fact that I used the word "legal" was obviously in error. I guess I took a lesson in sociology, psychology as well as linguistics. I would substitue the word "legal" with "available". I should edit that right now. :grin:



I don't understand the difference.

You think that aspartame should be unavailable. The only way to achieve that is through legislative sanctions (read: making it illegal to sell aspartame-containing products on the open market).

You're still just another prohibitionist, advocating a breach of my civil liberty, and I'd appreciate it if you cut it out already.

You're free to forfeit your liberties if you so choose. You are not free to forfeit mine.

Quote:

Tedwilto said:
I think it shouldnt be so readily used in our foods today but that has nothing to do with banning it.



Precisely.




I usually won't take the time to clear up simple issues like this, but in the case of a MOD I'm sorry, I cannot help but to correct you as it is my civil duty to correct MY authorities when they find themselves in need.

I NEVER STATED MY INTENTIONS ONCE, YOU HAVE DONE THAT FOR ME (this is known as power of attorney or in the case of non-consent, tyranny.) Yes, you as well as others have continually assumed what I mean by my words. Rarely have I been asked. This is also known as putting words in mouth. The title of this thread is followed by two question marks. I now realize that the confusion was not on my behalf. I guess I am fortunate the masses post in a hurry and post before me, lest I look like the fool.

After generalizing me (falsely) I should otherwise be more committed to the opposite of your goals, fortunately I have nary the time nor want, this is of no benefit to me and we are in the same camp. It would have taken but 5 seconds for you to look into my posts and gallery to decide what you stated as fact, quote;  "You're still just another prohibitionist," was obviously grossly mistaken. Before you again go off high on horse and decide to rip into others and wildly assume do make sure that you know what your speaking about.

If I was wrong in posting a question then you are more-so by the nature and manner of your response. This thread, again, began it's life as a question and was subsequently assumed as debate. If this is true then the rules of debate are to be adhered to and this thread needs to be moved accordingly. The Fallacies of Philosophical Debate.

As you go on to further defend your civil liberties, do make sure to at least remain "civil," or else where is the liberty?


Google define:liberty

Liberty; immunity from arbitrary exercise of authority: political independence





PS - Entropymancer- :grin: Should I shake the left jar yet?



Edited by PassiveAgressive (12/08/09 04:09 AM)


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame legal?? [Re: PassiveAgressive]
    #11610881 - 12/08/09 04:32 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

My apologies for assuming you support prohibition.  You're right, it would have been wrong to make that assumption based on your question. But that was not my basis for making that assumption. Consider the following quotes:

Quote:

PassiveAgressive said:
I NEVER STATED MY INTENTIONS ONCE, YOU HAVE DONE THAT FOR ME



Quote:

PassiveAgressive said:
Aspartame should be a schedule I substance



Care to explain how you both believe that it should be a Schedule I substance, but shouldn't be prohibited from inclusion in food products?

You'll have to pardon my confusion, but usually when someone says that a substance should be scheduled, it means that they think it should be scheduled. I'm honestly not seeing any way to interpret that statement other than an advocation of prohibition.

Again, I apologize if this assumption was unwarranted, but considering the quote above, you have to understand my basis for it.



Regardless, let me take a brief moment to address the question at face value:

Quote:

With the overwhelming evidence that aspartame is a known carcinogen amongst other things how is it that this scourge still frequents can's of soda etc?




It should first be noted that the question is impossible to answer as it stands, as it's based on an invalid presupposition.  The evidence that aspartame is a carcinogen in humans is not overwhelming; it's ambiguous, thus subject to interpretation.  Two highly qualified people could independently analyze the available data and legitimately draw very different conclusions.

If we postulate that this initial clause is true, then the answer boils down to three main points. (a.) Lots of people like to drink diet sodas sweetened with aspartame; (b.) Profit incentive for manufacturers... this follows directly from consumer demand; (c.) Legislators who like to protect people from themselves haven't got around to it yet.




And again, you'll have to pardon my confusion, but I'm not able to comprehend your position here:
Quote:

The buying of beer, cigarettes, marijuana, etc. are generally done with the dual understanding that 1) these products come along with clearly understood health risks; 2) these products impart some accepted and understood benefit to the user, measurable or otherwise 3)THEY ARE NOT FOOD ITEMS.



As far as I can tell, none of these distinctions have any bearing on the points made by myself or by others in this thread who oppose prohibition.  Could you at least clarify whether you agree with my basic principle? (That principle being: I believe in individual liberty to whatever extent that it does not harm non-consenting parties)

If you disagree with that principle, then I believe I understand where you're coming from.  If not, could you clarify the relevance that those distinctions have in demonstrating that choosing to purchase food with a potentially harmful additive harms non-consenting parties?




I'm not a Pub mod, so I'm unable to lock the thread.  You can notify one to lock the thread by hitting the .

Also, a very small sidenote: Attacking someone's character without allowing them the chance to respond (as would have occurred if a Pub mod had seen that post first) is not very polite.  I welcome candid criticism, but when the criticism is based on incorrect assumptions (eg. your assumption that my understanding that you support prohibition was based solely on the question posed in the original post), I feel I ought to be able to respond to it.  Even if the criticism is entirely valid, I want to be able to respond to it, if only to thank the one offering criticism for their opinions and concerns.


I'm sorry you don't believe my opinions to be intelligent or well thought... perhaps you feel that way simply because you disagree?  I'll admit, there's probably an analogy or two I gave that doesn't hold under intense scrutiny, but that's why I only use them to elucidate my central thesis (which I've put a great deal of thought into, and was sure to express without analogy several times).


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InvisibleGumby
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Re: How on Earth is aspartame AVAILABLE?? [Re: PassiveAgressive]
    #11617122 - 12/09/09 01:34 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
Locked per request of OP.


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