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tangoking
Lover of Boletes



Registered: 07/02/09
Posts: 952
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Last seen: 9 months, 4 days
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What should I do if I find an Undescribed Species?
#11573935 - 12/02/09 11:16 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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To whom or what organization is a good mycological citizen supposed to report these finds?
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2859558484
Growery is Better



Registered: 01/10/06
Posts: 8,752
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: What should I do if I find an Undescribed Species? [Re: tangoking] 1
#11574068 - 12/02/09 11:38 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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eat it
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Dragonaut


Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 6,194
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Re: What should I do if I find an Undescribed Species? [Re: 2859558484]
#11574234 - 12/03/09 12:05 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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CureCat
Strangest


Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 14,058
Loc: clawing your furniture
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Re: What should I do if I find an Undescribed Species? [Re: Dragonaut]
#11574315 - 12/03/09 12:20 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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NAMA isn't as much a scientific organization so much as the MSA (though they are all connected)- but that is really beside the point: that is, undescribed species are very commonly found.
It is nothing out of the norm to find species with no proper species name. And unfortunately, there are way more undescribed fungi species than there are mycologists to research them all, so those in the field are pretty overwhelmed.
Your best bet is to find out which mycologist(s) (professional or even amateur) is particularly interested in the genus you guess the species may be in, and send them part of the sample. I don't like sending out the entire collection, because all too often, the sample gets misplaced or they just don't get around to it for a long time (due to overwhelming amounts of material to work with). So it is good to try and get numerous people involved if you want anything to happen.
I have numerous undescribed species which are still sitting, waiting to be worked on.
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector


Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
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Re: What should I do if I find an Undescribed Species? [Re: CureCat]
#11574355 - 12/03/09 12:28 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Good advice.
I'm not sure about the undescribed part though. I call them unidentified which means I don't know what they are. Then again, with the purported mycodiversity of your area it might be the case. We have few mushroom hunts here where lots of species are left on tables with professional mycologists identifying and are unknown species. Nor have I seen any photos of id tables in your area where the lots of mushrooms are not known.
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CureCat
Strangest


Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 14,058
Loc: clawing your furniture
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Re: What should I do if I find an Undescribed Species? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#11574439 - 12/03/09 12:49 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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It is really common here, and I imagine it is also common elsewhere.
The problem is that all too often distinct species are hastily dismissed as a more common taxon, or identifiers put down a similar name based on macroscopic similarity, well knowing (or sometimes naive to the fact) that it is a similar, but separate species... For simplicity sake. Furthermore, there are "species clusters" and "satellite genera" that are a step in the right direction, in terms of recognizing that the groups contained are not a single species, but the lay-man just uses the specific name incorrectly- or I should not say lay-man I suppose, considering that those who really do not care just use common names, haha.
Microscopy is often required to identify some genera to species (i.e. Russula, Psathyrella, Cortinarius, Clitocybe, Gymnopilus, Hypholoma, Gymnopus, Pholiota, and the list goes on and on)... One common mistake is attributing European names to North American taxa, when they are clearly not conspecific.
One example is Cantharellus californicus, which has yet to be described, but will be the proper name for the yellow Chanterelle in California, which is distinct from C. cibarius (even if that species is itself a taxonomic mess).
I have a sinking feeling this is about to spark a debate...
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector


Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
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Re: What should I do if I find an Undescribed Species? [Re: CureCat]
#11574478 - 12/03/09 01:01 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Nah, no debate. I was just offering a counter-experience. Yes, those are good points and, from my experience, likely to be true. Then again, it all depends on how you slice the cheese.
Pointedly, there is no universally accepted definition of a mushroom species (or any species, for that matter). Hence the plethora of species concepts. Someone was saying, and I have no reason to doubt it, that the Green Cracked Cap Russula is something like 30 different species in North America if you use genetic sequencing for parsing them. Morphologically they are either identical or nearly so.
I have much more of a problem with some geek parking his/her ass on a stool in a lab sequencing mushrooms telling us what a mushroom is when they do little to no field work. While the rest of us are out there fighting bears, eluding snakes and getting Lyme disease from ticks. We find the mushrooms, they get the credit?!?
I call bullshit. But hey, that's just me.
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CureCat
Strangest


Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 14,058
Loc: clawing your furniture
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Re: What should I do if I find an Undescribed Species? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#11574513 - 12/03/09 01:12 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah, a lot of people get pretty indignant when they find out that they have no right to the say in a species name, even when they are the original collector.
Though, if they choose to work with the mycologist and co-author the paper, then they usually do have a hand in the naming process.
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World Spirit
PNW



Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
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Re: What should I do if I find an Undescribed Species? [Re: CureCat]
#11576333 - 12/03/09 11:54 AM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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I wonder if we could start a project where three of our more experienced mycofiles could become middlemen/middlewomen to a publishing organization for new species. Not only would they have the ability to submit rough-draft copies and samples they could propose necessary, practical revisions to species already published (Stamets has several publishing recommendations in his book).
We could even have a guide to getting a species published with a two tier process: Steps for the person who finds the collections and steps for the amateur mycologist to follow to submit everything to one of the organizations.
Just an idea
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trigger
non-trusted identifier


Registered: 08/13/06
Posts: 2,092
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Re: What should I do if I find an Undescribed Species? [Re: World Spirit]
#11576370 - 12/03/09 12:03 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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thats a great idea, someone should write up a proposal/plan and get it funded, without some funds, i don't think it will work well. someone should at least take down the info on new species so it dose not get lost, here on the shroomery their is a lot of great ground breaking mycology stuff.
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If you want to under stand me more better, use a hillbilly redneck voice while trans posing my words
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Dishez
Swamp Crawler

Registered: 09/25/07
Posts: 390
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
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Re: What should I do if I find an Undescribed Species? [Re: tangoking]
#11579833 - 12/03/09 08:32 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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All that being said... Im curious oh king of tango, have you found something interesting???
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You can all etibem
Stranger than strangest


Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 728
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
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Re: What should I do if I find an Undescribed Species? [Re: Dishez]
#11580121 - 12/03/09 09:19 PM (14 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Someone was saying, and I have no reason to doubt it, that the Green Cracked Cap Russula is something like 30 different species in North America if you use genetic sequencing for parsing them. Morphologically they are either identical or nearly so.
There's only 15 or so... And in the defense of Bart Buyck he does sequence them first and if he finds that they are different species he will go back and find a way to tell them apart morphologically (which not all mycologist do) I talked to him about his key to subsection Virescentinae being tough to follow and he wanted to know why I had problems with it and how he could make it better (for those of you who haven't seen it this is a line from the beginning of the key; 2. Cap clearly areolate-scaly when mature, with well-developed pseudoparenchymatous layer. ..... 3)
Most of the stuff we find in eastern NA is described, we just can't identify it...
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector


Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
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Thanks for weighing in and sharing that. I always welcome your opinions even if we don't agree.
Quote:
Most of the stuff we find in eastern NA is described, we just can't identify it...
I'd say that is highly likely.
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CureCat
Strangest


Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 14,058
Loc: clawing your furniture
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Quote:
You can all etibem said: I talked to him about his key to subsection Virescentinae being tough to follow and he wanted to know why I had problems with it and how he could make it better (for those of you who haven't seen it this is a line from the beginning of the key;
2. Cap clearly areolate-scaly when mature, with well-developed pseudoparenchymatous layer.
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