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Offlineandrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: TheBalance]
    #11511355 - 11/23/09 02:01 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

But do you see any difference between my pointing out a "substance fetish" rather than "psychological delusion"?




Talk more about that...


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Jesus loves you.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: andrewss]
    #11513575 - 11/23/09 06:36 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I dunno if it was the best idea, but I made a sort of dual response.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11513515#11513515


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Offlineandrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: daytripper23]
    #11514392 - 11/23/09 08:20 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Hmmm, I guess I am still finding myself a bit confused :shrug:


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: andrewss]
    #11514746 - 11/23/09 09:11 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

We must be making progress then, because "a bit" could only be a sentence here or there compared to the volume I've written between yesterday and today. Hah seriously though, I appreciate the effort.

I saw your reading Nietzsche's Genealogy of Morals. Maybe this will help me make sense, because what I am attempting is similar.

I think Nietzsche is somewhat tactile in what he circumscribed as "noblility" in the genealogy of morals. Why doesn't he describe this nobility in depth, by his own criteria - positively, rather than focussing on the negativity of Christianity? Granted I agree completely, and it does seem necessary to disentangle our metaphysics from our thinking. But nonetheless, he himself is rather negative himself in this essay. So even if we grant the necessity of this digression, should we not expect an affirming positive note on this so called nobility?

Why is nobility left rather ambiguous?

I think we would be mistaken to think that Nietzsche is just "severing" metaphysics. I described why I think this doesn't work in my last post. We have to consider this dogma in terms of its conception, and that is as a ritual. We need to consider "nobility" in its depth, or some "original sentiment", and what he could possibly mean by them,

I think Nietzsche's transvaluation, insomuch as it only refers to "values", and ostensibly severs metaphysics, is just half the story.

Here is an old post of mine on Nietzsche's transvaluation, and what I take to be its allusion to transsubstantiation.

So first, what is transsubstantiation? In the Christian ritual and magic, transsubstantiation, is the first miracle of JC, which established the ritualistic foundations of the Christian religion. He changed Water into wine, and later, the essential Christian Sacrament becomes the blood of christ, also transsubstantiated wine. This is catholic communion.

"Elaborating the concept in The Antichrist, Nietzsche asserts that Christianity, not merely as a religion but also as the predominant moral system of the western world, in fact inverts nature, and is "hostile to life". As "the religion of pity", Christianity elevates the weak over the strong, exalting that which is "ill-constituted and weak" at the expense of that which is full of life and vitality."

Finally, Terrence Mckenna also describes a historical inversion/transition as fundamental to his theories, but precisely in these terms of substance, in how humans progressed from the entheogenic sacraments, or the bare communion with nature, to a formalized sacrament that has become the catholic communion with God. From the effective potency of entheogens, to that empty catholic fetish of wine and bread, a ritual of weak substance.

So with these three statements, can you see what I am putting together?

Absurdly, it has become almost entirely alien to suggest that sacrament could, let alone should be potent in itself. But then what else could sacrament designate, besides a potent property of substance, (its potency being what deems it sacred)

While Nietzsche was adept at explaining the roots and significance of our ideological moralities, how much attention did he pay to the rituals and sacraments themselves? And again, how much did he actually pay attention to "nobility" in the Greeks, who we understand now as pagan? Finally what explains the strange fetishes apparent in these Christian rituals, such as "eat this bread and drink this wine?" Why shouldn't we find a natural root in substance, as well as value?

There are many subtleties that need to be worked out, given that Nietzsche was probably not referring to any "positive" psychedelic sacrament. Yet it is worth noting that Nietzsche did have at a strong inclination for original sentiment, which he notably saw in the Ancient Greek pagan mythos and referred to in many of his writings, such as the Dionysian Aesthetic.

But specifically to the point, of Nietzsche's "will to power", isn't this a testament to the fundamentally naturalistic potency of existence, of life in its bare communion with nature, whatever one might make of it?


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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: daytripper23]
    #11514782 - 11/23/09 09:16 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

will to power... i think that sounds inverted but i haven't read nietzsche's books.

nihilists can't hurt anybody, don't worry. is what john goodman always said, and i believe him!


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: akira_akuma]
    #11514961 - 11/23/09 09:35 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I dig it, actually I am glad you have brought up and stressed the ritualistic nature of man, in some sense perhaps it is a discharge of our mentality suceeding - the inverse of depression. Whereas an animal like the wolf may revert to play amongst others after their bellies are filled the human may indeed play, but with human flavor, with more force of mentality behind it - thus we developed all sorts of rituals in the wake of our successes. An early pseudo science as a psychological necessity discharged outward in the outset, and it wasn't always pretty! Though through these infantile steps we might see and comprehend how oddly natural everything human is even when it seems so enigmatic AND how rationality required some leaps of irrationality in the consciousness, or at least how it truly grew out of us.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: andrewss]
    #11515323 - 11/23/09 10:29 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

:strokebeard:

I often think about the difference between me and my pack when I run the dogs back in the field behind my house. The thought that often recurs to me is that my species originally only thought when it was tired, and maxed out in the body. I'm not sure exactly why or what that really means, but thinking in these terms, this original conception was obviously advantageous, and remains to be. But I wonder if in many cases, it only remains to be considered advantageous as generally "thought" due to the outward structures established by it. What I am referring to is technology.

What I am thinking, is the only truly "advantageous" thought, was that original, uncontrived conception. There is maybe even something perfect about it. Wheras my dogs run themselves to the ground, in this instance, I have the "positive ability" to conserve. But only in that perfect instance. After this, once I am aware of my thoughts, "conservatism" is rather a drag. Knowing I have this ability, knowing that I think, I will often contrive this conception to conserve, when it is much better for my well being to keep pushing. This is usually!

So originally, I thought only when I was "tired". Now I sort of "flex my brain" to think that I am tired, and may rationalize myself out of a good run, or whatever it is I am chasing. See, I think in the natural world, this would have more or less left me as dead meat. Or in other words, I can plainly see that a contrived thought is not really advantageous. In the world we live in, this doesn't seem to directly cause a problem though.

Technology seems to hold up equally a contrived thought with an uncontrived thought, so they can both seem advantageous. Thus we tend to think that generally "thought" is advantageous. I think its clear that usually, thought is pretty disadvantageous, just considering some of my meta-idiocies, or like Nietzsche elaborates in his genealogy.

But such as it is, I will consider myself the leader of my pack, whether or not my thought is truly advantageous. Living on the grounds of technology, I can and will still consider myself supreme, when my thoughts are contrived, cowardly, and dictative.

If the outward structures of thought couldn't linger, I speculate that my contrived thoughts would have left me dead meat a long time ago.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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Offlineandrewss
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Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: daytripper23]
    #11518925 - 11/24/09 01:39 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Give me a or some examples of what contrived thoughts are....

Are our thoughts brought out and ritualized aspects of part of what the dreaming mind does... which could be said it brings out perceptions and recollects on them - a kind of playing of a slide show of occurrences registered with the mind to kind of exercise future propositions of action. Is that "submerged" in what we call instinct in the lower animal that is still one with a decent CNS - and is the man one that brought that operation to the forefront and sort of half affirms its dreamy state in waking consciousness!? Remembrance is a tricky sneak. But perhaps anything that advertises modal communication has a handle on proper course of action, even in that intimate art of communication - just, we gotta, or we gotta admit, the human intellect is quite convinced of itself.

:shrug:


EDIT, expounded on that and got off rambling psychologically... probably influenced half consciously by established psychological ideas...

Are our musing thoughts brought out and ritualized aspects of part of what the dreaming mind does... which could be said it brings out past perceptions and recollects on them – some with more magnitude and different natures even while half waking, day-dreaming actually seems pretty accurate, one would assume many lower animals can dream but cannot really day-dream – that is they lack the ability to communicate intelligibly with a matrix of words, they perhaps have a view of pain and pleasure and a sense for themselves but it is much cruder, more guttural we could assume it would be quite a funny sight to observe the way higher language began in a being, much of it was a one two development of collaboration of ones advertisements and realizing others, for several ends… What we sort of observe in the dreaming human is a kind of playing of a slide show of occurrences registered with the mind which we might assume typically has a sense for utility in exercising future propositions towards action; which can display our worries and desires – or maybe showcase the chaos of the imagination. But it seems like the muse of the waking man is akin to this.

Is the waking intelligibility "submerged", in what we call instinct, in the lower animal - and is the man one that “brought” some dream like operations to the forefront, in a sense, intelligence could be said to start being a process to the forming of an impulse driven self who integrates its ability to feel deeply into its subconscious. But perhaps anything that advertises modal communication has a handle on proper course of action, even in that intimate art of communication; it has many brain states of reaction its DNA has been cultivating.

One could assume the forefront of our self, or ego, is a fragile entity (in the midst of conditions like it slowly grew from) we see for obvious reasons why people can get anxious to varying degrees of severity when you confine them like literally in a chamber and/or if one is deprived of long term social contact. This reveals I suppose a little about how the so called complex human mind came to be, it obviously for a myriad of reasons felt joy in its human contact and joy in its ability to be spontaneous as possible, free, etc. Though there is the sneakily growing force of fear (which is pretty similar to respect) of nature, of fate, of famine, and disease. It is out of that fear that man first became man, I think the more and more, somehow, nature afforded a type of being with successes from strategy, the more and more the being is lead to superstition (kind of one step further discharge of that mental process). Perhaps a mythological wisdom is established in communities and the ancestors really are truly deified and feared as the elders themselves are. To learn such important fruitful things one would have to be bred with this. Disarmed in a certain social sense by a unique upbringing and fed by daring one could see how a slow evolution was being forged that was destined for greatness; well that is to put it incredibly simply. And I would assume that part of the perfecting process was early on was a pretty brutal sociality between foreign families of pre-human beings; though one way or the other we learn a sense for the benefits of other human like beings in that they we can all be tools of the most utility or destruction, and I wonder how much gift giving and trickery occured - but even then we see tribal man with a sense for hubris (what luxury?!). Remembrance is a tricky sneak the human sort could be said as a complex scope of the intellect that simultaneously develops inward as it analyzes outward. Its rituals are fairly well established in nature by a myriad of human behaviors but one can really see how it is turned inside more often with angst and despair when it doesn’t have a proper route to vent its unique needs. Thus in a sense we see how some neurosis’s and paranoiacs are birthed.


damn reefer always makin me rant :lol:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


Edited by andrewss (11/24/09 04:58 PM)


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