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Using Drugs to Control a Society
    #1151178 -

I just finished reading Brave New World by Aldous Huxley, and one of the aspects of the book that struck me the most, was his references to drugs, and their roles in keeping people under control.

In the book, soma was a drug distributed by the government for people to take when they had bad thoughts or feelings.

In Europe, where the drug laws are much less strict and in many cases not even enforced, people go on with their lives believing they are truely free, while they are economically very limited. My question is this: do drugs provide a population with an illusion of freedom, so whenever a person is feeling restricted, he or she can simply go get high?

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: Anonymous]
    #1151221 -

i believe this is why alcohol is legal in the US. Its a popular way for many people to escape from their every day problems.


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_______________________________________
CSC

Life's a garden, Dig it!
~Joe Dirt

Off Topic Website

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: Anonymous]
    #1151265 -

Do drugs provide a population with an illusion of freedom, so whenever a person is feeling restricted, he or she can simply go get high?

If people are free to use drugs, then that freedom is no illusion.

In Europe, where the drug laws are much less strict and in many cases not even enforced, people go on with their lives believing they are truly free?

If the drug laws are much less strict, then they ARE truly freer than a country where drug laws are more strict..

?while they are economically very limited.

I have a feeling that this is the heart of your argument, but I have no idea what "economically very limited" means, especially with respect to freedom.

My question is this: do drugs provide a population with an illusion of freedom, so whenever a person is feeling restricted, he or she can simply go get high?

No. If they are free to use drugs, that is not an ?illusionary? freedom, that is a REAL freedom. And if they aren?t free to use drugs, they know it, and have no illusions of freedom.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1151374 -

So to you, true freedom is nothing but the freedom to do drugs?

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: Anonymous]
    #1151431 -

So to you, true freedom is nothing but the freedom to do drugs?

No. To me true freedom is the right to exercise sole dominion over my own life, and to live in whatsoever manner I choose, so long as I do not forcibly interfere with the equal right of others to do the same.

All else being equal, a society that doesn?t restrict drug use is freer than a society that does.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1151465 -

You sound like a fellow Libertarian to me! :smile:


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1151485 -

>To me true freedom is the right to exercise sole dominion over my own life, and to live in whatsoever manner I choose, so long as I do not forcibly interfere with the equal right of others to do the same.

We are in agreement there. However, my point is that in Europe and Canada, due to poorly managed (overly managed) economical systems, many people can not live in the manner they desire because they will never make enough money, for example, to buy a house. The person may then turn to drugs to take his or her mind off this dilemma.

Also, I am a strong advocate of legalization, and am probably one of the most "libertarian" members of this board. However, Huxley brought up some points about drug use and soma that I felt needed discussing. After all, you can better debate your cause if you know every aspect or potential aspect of your opponent's arguement.

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: Anonymous]
    #1151491 -

Nice thread! :smile:

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: Anonymous]
    #1151514 -

alcohol helps promote a consumerist america. the people up in power know that if they legalized acid, people would stop buying shit, they'd have no more need for material possessions.
people go about their lives feeling no purpose at all the entire time working a 9 to 5 job, and as soon as they get off the job, they can go to a bar, and get drunk, and feel good. it adds meaning to their life.
and im not saying this as a conspiracy btw. i just honestly feel its true. it is blatantly obvious to those who pass these laws that pot is not bad for you. they dont give a shit tho. it wouldnt be good for them if people tuned in, turned on, and dropped out. it would fuck america up. mebbe they're doing it for themselves. mebbe they're doing it because they believe in consumerism.


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"I think it's time we stop
Children, What's the sound,
Everybody look what's going down"

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1151559 -

You sound like a fellow Libertarian to me!

Haha!  I pretty much copied my statement right off my Libertarian Membership Card!  :grin: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: SnuffelzFurever]
    #1151563 -

>the people up in power know that if they legalized acid, people would stop buying shit, they'd have no more need for material possessions

You bring up another valid point. Soma, like alcohol, is merely a feel good drug that does not better your personality in any way, it only offers an escape. Drugs such as mushrooms can bring to light injustices, and would therefore be incompatible with a Brave New World.

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: Anonymous]
    #1151571 -

brave new world scares the shit out of me... thats the kinda society we might become.... sniffles

::cowers in fear::


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"I think it's time we stop
Children, What's the sound,
Everybody look what's going down"

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: Anonymous]
    #1151616 -

Interesting concept - not sure if there are any non-North Americans here since I must take issue with the 'Europeans' being 'economically very limited'... I work in the City of London (England) and there's plenty of opportunity in the financial markets here.

Then again, stonedfish has a point - if you accept that England has a more prosperous economy than most of Europe, then it's interesting to know that England has had harsher drug laws than other European countries.

On a more contentious note (not flamebait, I promise you) America may appear to be the land of the free, but the fact that big corporations can easily buy government influence means that it's not the government you have to worry about, but the intentions of corporations.
Quick example - both 5-HTP and GHB are utterly safe, cheap antidepressants - but both are illegal in the US because Eli Lilly wants to sell Prozac. And any ex-depressive here will testify that Prozac sucks, long-term.

Sorry for the long post - been lurking for far too long :wink: 

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: Anonymous]
    #1151641 -

You should check out Food of the Gods by Mckenna - he covers every drug from caffine to cocaine to television and talks about how the ones that most governments allow are the ones that numb the mind and keep people active


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: Anonymous]
    #1151751 -

Xanax, paxil, prozac, celexa, welbutrin, valium, ambien, nyquil, dayquil, claritin, zyrtec, prilosec, tagamet,  zantac, ibuprophen, aspirin, acetominophen, naproxen, ketoprophen, neurontin, hydrocodone, oxycontin, nicotrol, nicorrette all of these are basicly designed to keep folks productive and not thinking about any of the root causes of the symptoms they take them for.Call them "somas" for we ARE a society controled by drugs.IMHO LEO and their "illegal" drugs are competingfor/splitting with the Pharmers and their middlemen the Dr's the control of peoples own chemistry.Nearly everyone uses some form of drug daily in western society so I would have to say we have reached the doorstep to Huxley's vision.More and more I see things being broken down to the "haves" getting socialy acceptable drugs while the poorer classes must settle for illegal substances and chance slavery to the system which perpetuates their status.
PS "Drugs er baad,uhnkay? :grin:WR

edited by placing a space in behind  the commas in the drug list to prevent screen widening.  MM


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To old for this place

Edited by Mr_Mushrooms (12/18/02 12:16 PM)

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: Anonymous]
    #1152107 -

My point is that in Europe and Canada, due to poorly managed (overly managed) economical systems, many people can not live in the manner they desire because they will never make enough money, for example, to buy a house.

Even if this were true, I?d say it was irrelevant to the issue of freedom, because there?s no law against earning lots of money in those countries. However, IT?S NOT TRUE!!! Here is a list of home ownership rates for 10 developed countries around the world:

1. New Zealand ? 71.2%
2. Australia ? 70.1%
3. UK ? 69.0%
4. Italy ? 68%
5. US ? 67.4%
6. Canada ? 63.7%
7. Japan ? 60.3%
8. Sweden ? 56.0%
9. France ? 56.0%
10. Germany ? 43.0%

And how about poverty rates in developed countries? Here?s a list from least to most poverty (taken from a UN report, http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2002/en/pdf/backone.pdf ):

Poverty ranks for 17 selected OECD countries
1. Sweden
2. Norway
3 Netherlands
4 Finland
5 Denmark
6 Germany
7 Luxembourg
8 France
9 Japan
10 Spain
11 Italy
12 Canada
13 Belgium
14 Australia
15 United Kingdom
16 Ireland
17 United States

So it's actually LESS likely that you'll be able to do the things you want to do in the US, becasue you're MORE likely to be impoverished. But if you're impoverished, at least you can be thankful that your Government isn't one of those with a "poorly managed economical system", because if should ever need medical attention, er... nevermind.

I guess you might argue that America has the 2nd highest GDP per capita in the world (next to the European country of Luxemburg). But I think that's probably because a few rich people in this country earn so much, raising the national average. The top 10% of this country earns over 30% of our income ? more than the top 10% of any other developed nation.

Now back to the original topic - How do less restrictive drug laws create an "illusion" of freedom??? If there's a financial difference between our countries, I don't think it's significant and I don't think having slightly less money makes you less free.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1152114 -

A tightly reasoned argument complete with statistics! Very well done!

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1152397 -

My point is that in Europe and Canada, due to poorly managed (overly managed) economical systems, many people can not live in the manner they desire because they will never make enough money, for example, to buy a house.

Even if this were true, I?d say it was irrelevant to the issue of freedom, because there?s no law against earning lots of money in those countries. However, IT?S NOT TRUE!!!

Actually, I was referring to the majority of European countries having low percentages of house ownership... there will always be exceptions, such as Italy and the UK. In Germany, for instance, where less than half the population owns a house, living conditions are crowded and land has become so scarce that the prices for houses has skyrocketed. When I was in Germany over the summer, the girl with whom I was staying's father owned a house that cost him half a million euros.

I have strayed from the issue at hand. The reason the economy has such an impact on freedom is because, in essance, money buys freedom. When you have money, you have a means to improve your life. You have the freedom to travel, to buy material objects, and even (though it pains me to say so) to more easily push your personal political agenda. When you have money to buy a house, you buy an escape from the world. In a house, you are your own God. You can grow mushrooms without fear of a janitor stumbling upon them when looking to fix a leak. You can blast your stereo and keep the TV running all night without some disgruntled old lady banging on your floor with a broom. You can hold parties at your house and let your friends trash it without having to worry about your security deposit. Owning your own personal space is one of life's more precious freedoms often overlooked.

Now back to the original topic - How do less restrictive drug laws create an "illusion" of freedom??? If there's a financial difference between our countries, I don't think it's significant and I don't think having slightly less money makes you less free.

We're going in circles here. It could be argued that drugs offer an escape from reality, which means that, rather than face the problems in one's country, one can instead go get high. As long as there are people out there who simply want to "get fucked up," this is a very real possibility.

Think of it this way. If America were to all of the sudden legalize every kind of drug, what would the effect on the population be. I would wager that many people now standing up against the American government would be content and would retreat to their dwellings to enjoy their new freedoms, rather than continue to push for other items on their agendas, whether they be protesting Bush's unconstitutional Homeland Security Act or simply saving the whales.

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1152712 -

In reply to:
Even if this were true, I?d say it was irrelevant to the issue of freedom, because there?s no law against earning lots of money in those countries.


If you have a graduated income tax, you in effect are punishing people for earning more money by taking a greater percentage of their income.

In reply to:
So it's actually LESS likely that you'll be able to do the things you want to do in the US, becasue you're MORE likely to be impoverished.


How much of this poverty is a condition of recent immigrants? The U.S. has a VERY HIGH percentage of immigrants, and they are the most likely to be at the lower end of the economic scale. What's more telling is the economic mobility of immigrants in the U.S. as opposed to other countries. I did a search on the word 'immigrant' and could find no references to it in the .pdf of the U.N. report.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: Anonymous]
    #1152735 -

The reason the economy has such an impact on freedom is because, in essance, money buys freedom.

I agree with that. What I disagree with is that people in Canada and Europe have so little money that their freedom is just an illusion. People there are freer than we are, and I hope we are able to enjoy similar freedoms someday.

If America were to all of the sudden legalize every kind of drug, what would the effect on the population be. I would wager that many people now standing up against the American government would be content and would retreat to their dwellings to enjoy their new freedoms, rather than continue to push for other items on their agendas, whether they be protesting Bush's unconstitutional Homeland Security Act or simply saving the whales.

I would argue that the opposite would be true. If drugs were legalized, then people could worry more about other issues. Besides, we have a ton of drug users in this country. Are drugs currently keeping us ?under control???? I guess if anyone can answer that question, then they?ve solved the riddle that is the topic of this thread.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: Evolving]
    #1152872 -

If you have a graduated income tax, you in effect are punishing people for earning more money by taking a greater percentage of their income.

Ummm...? Are you agreeing with me that things aren't as rosy in the US as stonedfish implies?

How much of this poverty is a condition of recent immigrants?

I don't know. But I used to live in the Silicon Valley, which has recently been flooded by immigrants from India. Most have engineering degrees and are making close to six figures doing high-tech stuff. In any case Canada and Europe have very high immigration rates as well, so the question is less relevant.

Let's get back to the original question, which I think was a good one - Can drugs be used to contol a population? I think the answer would be the same in Canada, Europe and the US.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1152932 -

To me true freedom is the right to exercise sole dominion over my own life, and to live in whatsoever manner I choose, so long as I do not forcibly interfere with the equal right of others to do the same.

That sounds like Anarchy to me.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: Murex]
    #1152942 -

That sounds like Anarchy to me.

Almost.  Except for the last part "...so long as I do not forcibly interfere with the equal right of others to do the same".  :wink: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: Anonymous]
    #1152955 -

Using drugs to control society?

Its taking place all around us. Is television not a perfect example? media in general is a leash that is there to keep us all in a herd. The word "drug" goes so far beyond the conventional meaning as far as im concerned. I t no longer pertains to just chemical agents put into the body. It is anything that changes or alters the perception of reality. we are constantly being "drugged" into thinking that war is a natural and necessary means of resolution, and that we have to be physically beautiful to be accepted. Its fucking bullshit!!!! Im sick of having freedom defined for me. We all need to stand up and fight for what we truly believe in. For me that means fighting for equalness, peace and acceptance of all creation. with all the wisdom and resources that human biengs posess, its ridiculous that we are not more in balance that we are.





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"It's not until we've lost everything, that we're free to do anything." TDFC

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1152956 -

No, that fits with Anarchy too.

Apparently, you do not know what true anarchy is. Most think it's chaos- it isn't.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: whiterasta]
    #1153238 -

Well Rasta, you and Strumpling are probably the only ones who've actually answered the original question. I got off on a tangent trying to understand the 3rd paragraph of the original post. It appears you both think the Government might have some control of people who are taking legal drugs.

But would this level of control increase or decrease if we were to legalize other drugs, like mushrooms or pot? Seems to me like those drugs would do nothing to help the Govt control us. Stonefish said (or implied) that these drugs might help you forget your problems, and therefore might make you complacent with your current situation. But I think many of us on these boards do drugs fairly regularly. Are we complacent with our situation??? I don't think so. Therefore, I would conclude that legalizing drugs WON'T help the Govt control us.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1153263 -

There are the statistics I was looking for. Thanks  :laugh: 

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1153428 -

I agree, GoBlue

It's hard to imagine having legal drug use in our society, but I'm trying right now...

The way I see it is there is this huge level of paranoia for illegal drug users. They ARE criminals, according to their government. We're being kept locked up in our homes and seperated from each other. Our normal peaceful way of life is condemned. This blanket of fear envelopes us. We're labeled supporters of terrorism. We're seen as crazy drug dealers to most of the law-abiding population. The fear splits people up.

If weed and mushrooms ever did get legalized I think we'd see a much bigger union of the people, communication would be rediscovered, and we'd move on to seek out the rest of the corruption in our country, which would be hella bad for the dominating forces in control now.

Imagine it, everyone hanging out on the neighborhood streets, getting high, talking to each other, sharing ideas, working together to get things done.

I think things will change dramatically when we realize how much power we the people can posess, and the freedom to do safe and beneficial drugs will be a big first step.

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: Murex]
    #1153459 -

Actually, yeah, it is. True anarchy means a total lack of order.

What a bunch of leftist goofs call anarchy nowadays is NOT anarchy.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: Anonymous]
    #1153470 -

soma....didn't Gordan W. believe that soma was really a mushroom? it was some kind of religion, (i read it in the book flesh of the gods) i thought it had pretty much died out, cause no one really new what soma was?


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What fun is it in Nirvana while other beings are suffering?

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1153696 -

>But would this level of control increase or decrease if we were to legalize other drugs, like mushrooms or pot? Seems to me like those drugs would do nothing to help the Govt control us.

Drugs like shrooms (and acid, as mentioned earlier) provide the use with unique insights which, I agree, would not keep people content. Since I began shrooming, I in fact have renewed hope in our country, and once again believe (however idealistically) that I can make a difference.

At the risk of severe flaming, I will also post my opinions on marijuana. Here is a drug with *some* ethnobotanical values, but every single pot smoker I know does not take advantage of the inisghts that can be gained from weed. When I smoked, it was merely an escape. I look at some of my friends now, and weed is still an escape. It hasn't improved their lives in any way. They spend most of their money on weed, and smoke every chance they get. The Simpsons did a great job illustrating the world of a stoner. While all the potheads of Springfield were lying around smoking, they completely space on the date to vote to keep medicinal marijuana legal.

The biggest of my concerns, is the ability of drugs such as prozac and ritalin to control a population. I was struggling with depression and OCD, and had an outspoken mistrust for large institutions. When I said I didn't trust that my school was looking out for my best interest, or that I wouldn't confide any personal information to a psychiatrist, the FIRST thing my doctor did was prescribe Zoloft. Granted, it made me feel a little better and more in control, but I found myself more easily susceptible to the various propoganda pushed by schools. I found that I could not be agitated over political issues, and I just stopped caring about anything that didn't directly deal with myself. As Huxley wrote, I became a normal in an abnormal society. I dealt with each day as it came, with no worry for the future of our country

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: Anonymous]
    #1153766 -

I get really hung up on the real meaning of words often and find myself doing so here. "Drugs" is pretty vague if you ask me although I am not obliviouse to the current cultural usage of the word.

I am more inclined to think if there is any government control it is simply and soley done through TV more than anything else. FUCK borders, FUCK countries, FUCK "drugs", they can reach you and most people out there to it WILLINGLY.......

and while your watching that fake titted hotty pass the bottle of Bud Light to her Disney Stock owner, BMW driving,  hair replacemnt, boyfriend to wash his Ambien down, they will SELL it to you anyway.........  (trying for the product placment money baby!):shocked:


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Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.

Edited by upupup (12/19/02 04:24 AM)

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: Phluck]
    #1153873 -

I completely agree.

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: Anonymous]
    #1154030 -



I think that your idea that drug use leading towards conformity is entirely dependent on the type of drug being used.

I agree that CERTAIN drugs might keep people from speaking out but we have to be careful to specify certain drugs rather than making a more general statement that includes all drugs.


Looking at history real quick we can see that the use of drugs does not necessarily mean conformity.

Look at the friggin' hippies for God's sake!!!!


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---Still Searching---

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: LOPHO.MP]
    #1155194 -

Great point!


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: LOPHO.MP]
    #1155453 -

>I think that your idea that drug use leading towards conformity is entirely dependent on the type of drug being used.

Very much so. Take opiates for example. When you've popped a few vicadins, you don't feel like thinking, much less actually getting up and doing anything. Compare that with the need to explore on shrooms - maybe not physically; but on shrooms you are mentally exploring the universe and world around you.

Huxley also hinted at soma being comparable to such brain dead drugs when he writes in his preface that a drug was needed to help control society, much like alcohol or heroin, but without the negative side effects.

Edited by stonedfish (12/19/02 02:05 PM)

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1155485 -

Let's get back to the original question, which I think was a good one - Can drugs be used to contol a population? I think the answer would be the same in Canada, Europe and the US. 

This is a link to information on quinuclidinyl bezilate - a super hallucinogen.  It is an odorless gas developed by the U.S. government for battle field use, also considered to be used against the U.S. civilian population in a major insurrection.
(we supposedly destoryed all stock piles :smirk: do you beleive that?)

It will put a subject into an acute hallucinatory state, disconnected from reality for 3 days, with after effects lasting as long as 6 weeks

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/BZ


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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Re: Using Drugs to Control a Society [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1155513 -

BZ is the drug in Jacob's Ladder,right? That is some truly scary shit,an ultra potent anti-cholinergic deleriant! I think I would rather die than be exposed to that stuff.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams

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by Anonymous
* Anarchist Society *DELETED*
( 1 2 all )		 0toxic0 4,021 34 07/28/03 09:31 PM
by fireworks_god
* Drugs are evil!
( 1 2 all )		 Autonomous 2,924 28 08/11/03 12:16 PM
by Pyronate
* appeal for a mystical society,
( 1 2 all )		 Mitchnast 4,192 34 03/19/03 05:31 PM
by Zero7a1
* drugs...too self aware...intellectual confusion..need advice
( 1 2 all )		 kapowsin 4,748 31 09/19/03 07:58 PM
by silversoul7
* Be Nice = Don't do Drugs or Don't critisize the Ruler etc? Ulysees 834 7 01/17/03 03:10 AM
by Anonymous
* Mind? Control Techniques
( 1 2 all )		 Sclorch 3,607 26 04/30/02 03:17 PM
by Insomniac

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