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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: daytripper23]
    #11506962 - 11/22/09 08:18 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I think we have to wonder about existence.

Well we certainly are and have been for quite some time.

Do you really need to make this all so complex. I have a terrible time following you. It's like chasing the hatter.

"God is dead, long live god".

but we seem to find ourselves "between" spiritual explanations and psychological explanations of reality.

We meaning you and I. Veritas would not agree. I find myself there hopefully as as transition from one belief system to another which hopefully is heading closer to a working concept of truth for me. But I'm not sure right now I'm stuck.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: Icelander]
    #11507063 - 11/22/09 08:34 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Belief systems are all out of the question IMO that's why I'm in the "middle". If its belief, I want to be actively inspired. But I shouldn't have said any of that,  its pretty bad description, and ushers us into the left and right crap.

Still, I have (unfortunately) always agreed with you in "stuckness".

Im all there; then again I'm way over here.

                        ---

But do you see any difference between my pointing out a "substance fetish" rather than "psychological delusion"?

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: daytripper23]
    #11507076 - 11/22/09 08:36 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

But by our finite nature we must always be stuck. The finite cannot comprehend the infinite imo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: Icelander]
    #11507235 - 11/22/09 09:03 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Good stuff, I will try to actually react later on. I would like you to bring up Spinoza again. I am sort of reverting back to thinking on what the word substance even means. However I think I am running a bit away from the OP in a sense... pardon me... I should prolly read more before ramblings..... haha.... Beliefs about the raw material of being is so interesting. I dont know what is the true cause of this, but it seems often that given the nature of communication - discussed, or relatable ideas, never seem POTENT ENOUGH to compell, universally, humans to certain feelings or ideas in themselves. One submits that this speculation is so odd and intimate that only some silly souls will attempt an examination as such, we often seem to dillute in a pool of pyschological paradoxes... due to our intertwined mentaility, that is interwined with verbiage. But so what? I suppose a feeling for substance shall dillute into personal paradox - absolutely????? But a big aspect of this could be a self examantaion in regards to the fact that your identity is apparently substantial. You regard your extension via body, body among bodies... you are a composite, you are a myriad of contingencies and such, you are not blood, muscle, etc REALLY, no? I enjoy dispositions such as Spinoza. Though the human trait to unify is interesting... But in a certain sense we could consider his God in two lights... one as the evolving and naturans becoming which stumbles across its axioms - but axioms? Is there a real a-priori structure? Or was the original split all too binary and randomized, a pure yin-yang split from naturata ?????? Or is the idea of genesis messing with me? Fook!

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa weeeee ambiguity


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

Edited by andrewss (11/22/09 09:11 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: andrewss]
    #11507284 - 11/22/09 09:11 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Well in a sense, for me, this is all pretty silly (however interesting).

Why? because it won't really effect my well being one way or another. Like many things we discuss here.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: Icelander]
    #11507297 - 11/22/09 09:13 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Well being, pffft :gethigh:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: andrewss]
    #11507311 - 11/22/09 09:14 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

IMO it's what counts for a rational being who is going to die.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: Icelander]
    #11507371 - 11/22/09 09:25 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Yes well this is a matter of luxury, we even have time to suffer of our imagination???

I dunno, I am not sure I understand you.


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: andrewss]
    #11507418 - 11/22/09 09:32 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Close enough.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: andrewss]
    #11507613 - 11/22/09 10:08 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Well, I am not sure what I think of Spinoza, I really should make a real read of the ethics...

For my present purpose though, I am only probing substance theory, to disentangle it from thinking. I think I agree that we can consider substance as the root of "God", in however someone may conceive of Him. That is to say in other words, as a criterion for God. So my focus is not so much on substance itself, or any actual claim of God, but in working any subsequent fetish back to its origin, whatever that may be. In doing that, I think we might encounter something like the "death of God".

Edited by daytripper23 (11/22/09 10:47 PM)

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OfflineTheBalance
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: daytripper23]
    #11508323 - 11/23/09 12:03 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

But do you see any difference between my pointing out a "substance fetish" rather than "psychological delusion"?




By deciding on a natural literal counterpart or substance (manna, flesh, blood, small round stone/thing, key) and applying the courage of active experimentation we may be able to re-frame what seems like clearly a delusion into at least an understanding of the original inspiration.

It becomes a matter of what substance fits the delusion or could have produced it as such, IMO.

Rad post, dang.:thumbup:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: daytripper23]
    #11509542 - 11/23/09 09:13 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

"death of God". Do you mean like in the sense god was invented for human purpose?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: daytripper23]
    #11509702 - 11/23/09 09:47 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Well, I am not sure what I think of Spinoza, I really should make a real read of the ethics...

For my present purpose though, I am only probing substance theory, to disentangle it from thinking. I think I agree that we can consider substance as the root of "God", in however someone may conceive of Him. That is to say in other words, as a criterion for God. So my focus is not so much on substance itself, or any actual claim of God, but in working any subsequent fetish back to its origin, whatever that may be. In doing that, I think we might encounter something like the "death of God".




The Ethics was pretty amazing, I think one would have to read it at least 3 times or something. I got through it all this summer and was amazed at the very least by the genius of Spinoza himself by authoring such a beast of a work. Not to mention some of the insights...

Anyway, sorry for the Spinozian distractions, I couldnt help but be distracted haha. Anyway, I think I dig what you are saying though I am still trying to get it... haha... Encountering another aspect of a so called death of God eh.............. hmmmmmmm :strokebeard:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: Icelander]
    #11509707 - 11/23/09 09:48 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, I'm not exactly sure of what it is I'm probing there, but that's a big part of it.

What does the death of God positively suggest? I'd doubt that Nietzsche even new exactly what it meant, unless he was a greater visionary than we already give him credit for. He was the one who originally spoke of a philosophy of the future. But I think its clear that this is not so perfectly conceived as the appeal of some clean slate we can refer to. I think its supposed to be somewhat ambiguous

Or maybe its like were previously discussing; something about the syntax of having to wonder about existence, at the same time that in such a sphere, we have rejected the possibility of declarative statements about reality.

Maybe its like this, what do we "build" next, and how do we begin?

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: andrewss]
    #11509713 - 11/23/09 09:49 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

When you figure out what he's saying don't forget to PM me so I won't look like an idiot out here.:blush: I mean more then I already do.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: andrewss]
    #11509838 - 11/23/09 10:18 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

andrewss said:
Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Well, I am not sure what I think of Spinoza, I really should make a real read of the ethics...

For my present purpose though, I am only probing substance theory, to disentangle it from thinking. I think I agree that we can consider substance as the root of "God", in however someone may conceive of Him. That is to say in other words, as a criterion for God. So my focus is not so much on substance itself, or any actual claim of God, but in working any subsequent fetish back to its origin, whatever that may be. In doing that, I think we might encounter something like the "death of God".




The Ethics was pretty amazing, I think one would have to read it at least 3 times or something. I got through it all this summer and was amazed at the very least by the genius of Spinoza himself by authoring such a beast of a work. Not to mention some of the insights...

Anyway, sorry for the Spinozian distractions, I couldnt help but be distracted haha. Anyway, I think I dig what you are saying though I am still trying to get it... haha... Encountering another aspect of a so called death of God eh.............. hmmmmmmm :strokebeard:




I agree about 3 times for a philosophical work, only the way I see it is around 30 minutes a page. In other words, I have a tendency to fall behind in my school work :lol:.

What's a distraction in philosophy eh? I think Spinoza is probably appropriate, but I'm not the one appropriating. Actually, I probably am more than I should be...eh

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: TheBalance]
    #11509867 - 11/23/09 10:23 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

TheBalance said:
Quote:

But do you see any difference between my pointing out a "substance fetish" rather than "psychological delusion"?




By deciding on a natural literal counterpart or substance (manna, flesh, blood, small round stone/thing, key) and applying the courage of active experimentation we may be able to re-frame what seems like clearly a delusion into at least an understanding of the original inspiration.

It becomes a matter of what substance fits the delusion or could have produced it as such, IMO.

Rad post, dang.:thumbup:




That's a pretty good read, I'd say.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: daytripper23]
    #11509882 - 11/23/09 10:25 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Origional inspiration?

How far back do you want to go?

I know that fear is never boring but is it inspiring?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: Icelander]
    #11509969 - 11/23/09 10:40 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I'm sure you've encountered fear and anxiety on psychedelics before, but is that why you ingested them?

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: On substance fetish [Re: daytripper23]
    #11509996 - 11/23/09 10:45 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

OK, but look at the conclusions I have come to.

Now look at early man in his ignorant (of his basic situation) fear driven state. Why would you want a protective overseer whom you could placate and would intervene to help you survive? Now tell me why "god is dead".

And death is "alive" and well.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (11/23/09 10:47 AM)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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