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Offlineimnorml
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Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics
    #11499564 - 11/21/09 03:46 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The shotgun FC is nearly universally considered to work very well.  I agree that it works, but disagree about WHY it works well.

From Let's Grow Mushrooms:
"The theory of operation for the shotgun mushroom fruiting chamber is that natural air currents travel from areas of high pressure to areas of low pressure."
I totally agree, as long as there aren't other, stronger forces at work, like gravity.

"Cool air has the molecules closer together than warm air"
I agree with this, too.

"thus cool air is at a slightly higher pressure than warm air"
This is not true.  Just check the ideal gas law: PV=nRT.  Pressure and Temperature are proportional, if one goes up, so does the other.

"This temperature differential, however slight, results in enough of a pressure gradient that it causes air to flow up through the perlite"

This is not true.  Effectively what this is saying is that COOL AIR RISES.  If this were true, we'd fly in cool air balloons.  Warm air rises because it is less dense and therefore lighter.  Gravity pulls down cool air and doesn't pull as strongly on warm air.

I do agree that the air flows upward through the perlite, but not for this reason.  Probably most importantly, the lamp heats up the air above the FC, the HOT AIR RISES, leaving a partial vacuum, and drawing the air from within the chamber upward.

Second, the air surrounding the perlite is only slightly cooler but significantly more humid than the air above the perlite.  Moist air is lighter than dry air because water molecules are lighter than other air molecules (O2 and N2), water "crowds out" the other, heavier molecules.  Seems counter-intuitive, but true.  It is because moist air is lighter that low pressure zones bring us wet weather.

This lighter, moist air rises both out of the perlite and out of the FC in general.

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Offlinewocka
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: imnorml]
    #11499586 - 11/21/09 03:50 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

so where we going with this?

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Invisiblelordhelmut
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: imnorml]
    #11499610 - 11/21/09 03:53 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The old ideal gas law, PV=nRT. Excellent explanation!


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Offlinespastick
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: lordhelmut]
    #11499622 - 11/21/09 03:54 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

If what the OP is saying is true, which does seem plausible, how come this hasn't been mentioned before?

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OfflineKanker
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: imnorml]
    #11499733 - 11/21/09 04:11 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

imnorml said:

Gravity pulls down cool air and doesn't pull as strongly on warm air.




orly?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: Kanker] * 1
    #11499856 - 11/21/09 04:37 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

"thus cool air is at a slightly higher pressure than warm air"
This is not true.  Just check the ideal gas law: PV=nRT.  Pressure and Temperature are proportional, if one goes up, so does the other.



That formula applies to monoatomic gasses in a sealed vessel, not a terrarium with holes in it exposed to ambient air at normal atmospheric pressure.

The cooler air surrounding the perlite has the molecules closer together, thus at slightly higher pressure.  The warmer air above has the molecules farther apart, thus lower pressure.  Remember, a terrarium with holes all over it is not a sealed vessel where a rise in temperature causes a corresponding rise in pressure.

You are correct that humid air is lighter(less dense) which is also a contributing factor in it rising to the relatively drier air above.  A balloon rises because the hot air within is less dense than the cooler air around it.  It's not due to the effects of gravity on the air itself.  An airplane wing produces lift by creating a lower pressure area above the wing and a higher pressure area below the wing.  The carburetor on an old car works the same way, creating a lower pressure zone within the venturi, which draws fuel from the bowl through the jets and into the intake manifold.
RR


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Offlinegornyhuy
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11499894 - 11/21/09 04:45 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

What happens if a heat source such as a 'heat bomb' or a heating blanket is placed below the SG FC (with an air gap of several inches between it and the  bottom of the tub)?

Will hot air rise up from the heat source into the holes on the bottom of the terrarium, introducing additional air flow through the perlite and simultaneously warming the air in the chamber, or will it somehow screw up the natural function of the shotgun system?


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Invisibletugwax
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11501026 - 11/21/09 08:01 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

"thus cool air is at a slightly higher pressure than warm air"
This is not true.  Just check the ideal gas law: PV=nRT.  Pressure and Temperature are proportional, if one goes up, so does the other.



That formula applies to monoatomic gasses in a sealed vessel, not a terrarium with holes in it exposed to ambient air at normal atmospheric pressure.

The cooler air surrounding the perlite has the molecules closer together, thus at slightly higher pressure.  The warmer air above has the molecules farther apart, thus lower pressure.  Remember, a terrarium with holes all over it is not a sealed vessel where a rise in temperature causes a corresponding rise in pressure.

You are correct that humid air is lighter(less dense) which is also a contributing factor in it rising to the relatively drier air above.  A balloon rises because the hot air within is less dense than the cooler air around it.  It's not due to the effects of gravity on the air itself.  An airplane wing produces lift by creating a lower pressure area above the wing and a higher pressure area below the wing.  The carburetor on an old car works the same way, creating a lower pressure zone within the venturi, which draws fuel from the bowl through the jets and into the intake manifold.
RR




I'm having trouble imagining our chamber having varying regions of 'pressure'.
Surely every space in the chamber will be at the same pressure.

I entirely accept that any heated air inside the chamber will have less 'density' which could cause an upwards chimney effect.

Without a heat source such as from a light, isn't it also possible that dense, cooled perlite air and CO2 drains out the bottom which would draw fresh air in from the top?

Convection aside, there must also be some diffusion across the holes. The mixture of gasses inside will try to match the concentrations outside although this might be slower.

Whatever the exact process of air exchange is, there must be a sweet spot between a given chamber volume, perlite volume and the collective area of holes.

I'm guessing the 1/4" holes spaced 2" were a work of diligent trial and error and might hold true regardless of chamber size.
It would be nice to put a formula together though!


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Offlineimnorml
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: gornyhuy]
    #11501218 - 11/21/09 08:37 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
That formula applies to monoatomic gasses in a sealed vessel, not a terrarium with holes in it exposed to ambient air at normal atmospheric pressure.
The cooler air surrounding the perlite has the molecules closer together, thus at slightly higher pressure.  The warmer air above has the molecules farther apart, thus lower pressure.  Remember, a terrarium with holes all over it is not a sealed vessel where a rise in temperature causes a corresponding rise in pressure.





The ideal gas law applies most accurately to monoatomic gasses, but is a very good approximation in most ordinary circumstances, which is why it is so useful. 

Pressure corresponds to the number of molecular collisions against a surface and also the amount of energy those collisions transfer.  Temperature is, more or less, a measure of how fast particles are moving.  Faster moving particles hit a surface harder, transfer more energy and collectively exert more pressure.  Temperature is just as important as density is in determining pressure.

Also it is not important to have a sealed vessel, which I'll explain.

I didn't want to get into a longer discussion in the OP, but I'll do it here

A volume of ambient air enters the FC and into the perlite.  As it is cooled its volume decreases via PV=nRT.  (If you were to stuff a small balloon into the perlite (this is the "sealed container" idea), you could actually see this volume reduction happen, but the air doesn't behave differently depending upon whether it is in a container.)

As the volume decreases, air will be drawn into the perlite from all directions to compensate for the dropping volume.  In fact the air in the perlite will constantly have a very slightly LOWER pressure because of the cooling, however, this gradient is very small because surrounding air is free to move into the perlite (another benefit of the shotgun!).

Again, these pressure differentials are very small, which is why the effect of gravity on air of different densities becomes the driving force in the shotgun.  Less dense air moves UP, i.e. in the opposite direction of gravity.  I misspoke by saying gravity pulls more strongly on cooler air.  It pulls just the same, but since cooler air is more dense (more stuff per volume), it pulls more strongly a volume of cooler air than on the same volume of hot air, because there are MORE MOLECULES of cold air in the same volume.

The examples of the plane wing and carburetor are not analogous to this situation since both involve very large pressure differentials.  For most everyday situations that you encounter air movement due to temperature/density differentials is much more important.

Quote:

gornyhuy said:
What happens if a heat source such as a 'heat bomb' or a heating blanket is placed below the SG FC (with an air gap of several inches between it and the  bottom of the tub)?

Will hot air rise up from the heat source into the holes on the bottom of the terrarium, introducing additional air flow through the perlite and simultaneously warming the air in the chamber, or will it somehow screw up the natural function of the shotgun system?




Yes, warm air moving from below will add additional air into the FC since it would mean a greater temperature/air-density gradient, but the lamp on top and the substrate providing heat through thermogenesis are probably all that is needed for ideal airflow.  Too much airflow and your perlite and substrate/casing will dry out too quickly.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: imnorml]
    #11501295 - 11/21/09 08:52 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Agreed the pressure gradients are extremely small.  However, in the absence of a vessel, if you heat a gas, it expands and spreads out, becoming less dense, thus less weight, and less pressure, not more. This is why on a hot day, an airplane needs a longer runway to become airborne, engines develop less horsepower, and the density altitude increases.

However, you may be correct in that the molecular weight of the air itself, slightly cooler in the perlite, thus denser and heavier, could be more responsible for the air currents than the pressure gradients.  I doubt it could be measured to determine for sure, at least not on my budget. :shrug:
RR


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Offlineimnorml
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11502919 - 11/22/09 07:55 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

tugwax said:Surely every space in the chamber will be at the same pressure.




There will be slight differences in pressure where there is cooling or heating, but those differences will be quickly and constantly equalize... in an open system, pressures will equalize.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
in the absence of a vessel, if you heat a gas, it expands and spreads out, becoming less dense, thus less weight, and less pressure, not more.





You've got it backwards.

When you heat a volume of gas in a vessel the pressure rises and stays that way because the volume can't change. 
When you heat the same volume without the vessel the pressure rises, the volume of the air expands only until the pressure is equalized.
Likewise, when you cool a gas, its pressure decreases, so its volume collapses until the pressure is equalized.

We don't need to empirically test the theory.  Your theory relies upon the principle that COOL AIR RISES, which is not true.

WARM AIR RISES.  This is the driving principle of the shotgun FC.

With this in mind (and seemingly regardless of which principle is at work), I think that an improvement upon the shotgun chamber would be to ONLY HAVE HOLES IN THE TOP AND BOTTOM.  This upward convection is the most important element of the chamber.  Eliminating the holes on the sides will reduce the diffusion of moisture out of the sides and the bottom to top convection should be enough to move CO2 out of the chamber.

Also, keeping the light on 24/7 would probably also help.  Any evidence that 24/7 light is harmful for any reason?

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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: imnorml]
    #11502934 - 11/22/09 08:06 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

imnorml said:
I think that an improvement upon the shotgun chamber would be to ONLY HAVE HOLES IN THE TOP AND BOTTOM



You should try this. Seriously, do side-by side grows and post it.
I suspect that humidity will be great, but you'll lack FAE. But it's worth an experiment.

Quote:

imnorml said:
Also, keeping the light on 24/7 would probably also help.  Any evidence that 24/7 light is harmful for any reason?




Very,very few organisms thrive in constant light.
Some require constant darkness, but the most common pattern is that organisms expect and require daylight, or a reasonable substitute.
This would be pretty easy to test with side-by-side grows, too.


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OfflineCJCollin37
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: Doc_T]
    #11503097 - 11/22/09 09:06 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

My shotgun sits on the floor, no holes on the bottom and only two on the top. I dont even have a hygrometer but my cakes have been producing nice healthy fruits...

Just thought I'd throw that out there...

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Offlinebw86
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: CJCollin37]
    #11503148 - 11/22/09 09:28 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

:nothingtoadd:
but i wish the mush cult had intelligent conversations like this every day!

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: imnorml]
    #11503190 - 11/22/09 09:45 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

imnorml said:
Your theory relies upon the principle that COOL AIR RISES, which is not true.

WARM AIR RISES.  This is the driving principle of the shotgun FC.





Actually, as a certified professional engineer, I've stated the theory of shotgun terrarium operation many times, and it has nothing to do with hot air rising.

It is based on the fact that air currents travel from high pressure to low.  This is how weather works.  The main driving force in weather is the opposite of what you're supposing. 

The sun heats the air, which causes it to become less dense, thus at a lower pressure.  Denser, high pressure cool air then rushes in to equalize the pressure.  Where you're going wrong is in supposing the sun heats the air, causing an increase in pressure, which is not how it works. The highest pressure on the planet occurs in the polar regions during the winter when the air is very cold, not in the equatorial regions during summer when the sun is heating the air to very high temperatures.

The shotgun terrarium is a miniature weather system.  The cooler air within the damp perlite is slightly more dense than the warmer air above, causing air to flow upward towards lower pressure, regardless of temperature.  This airflow results in evaporative cooling within the perlite, perpetuating the flow as long as the air above is at a slightly lower pressure.

I can't make it any easier to understand than that.  The important thing is not to make the mistake of thinking hot air rising is the driving force in weather patterns.  Pressure gradients are the driving force in weather.  The other mistake you're making is assuming that heating the air results in a higher pressure.  The opposite is actually true, warm air is less dense, thus at a lower pressure. 

The reason a hot air balloon floats is not because hot air rises.  The burner controlled by the balloon pilot is only a means to an end...The heat forces the molecules of air in the balloon apart, causing there to be fewer of them in the envelope, thus it's at lower density(weight) and rises.

24/7 light is harmful to fungi and degrades performance.
RR


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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11503320 - 11/22/09 10:19 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I would just like to point out that even in a monotub or any sealed terrarium, the fruits create some kind of air current that carries the spores away from the gills to above the cap.

Look at any picture of well ripened fruits. There are spore stains on the caps in a slight swirling pattern.

This doesn't support one argument or the other, it just shows that there is absolutely no way to prove how the shotgun fc works, cuz the updraft exists anyway, without any holes at all.


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OfflineLuigiMario
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: anonjon]
    #11503531 - 11/22/09 10:59 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I'm agreeing with RR here. When you heat a gas, it wants to expand. If there is nothing restricting that expansion, then the rise in temperature will cause a change in the volume of the gas, not the pressure.

In addition, don't you guys think that natural air currents in the room the FC is sitting in has a lot more to do with FAE than these miniscule differences in pressure and temperature? Any FC is not a very big system, I can't imagine pressure and temperature gradients acting as the driving force behind FAE. Even evaporation of water in the perlite is going to take place regardless of these caveats. Just leave a puddle of water on the counter for a day and see what happens. It magically disappears.

-Luigi:1up:

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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: LuigiMario]
    #11504043 - 11/22/09 12:41 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LuigiMario said:

In addition, don't you guys think that natural air currents in the room the FC is sitting in has a lot more to do with FAE than these miniscule differences in pressure and temperature?




I should imagine that closed closets have pretty still air but air circulation in a room would have a very significant effect no doubt..

Hang on aren't we talking about the same thing? The chamber is just like a miniature room with natural air currents. The processes might be minuscule but they are constantly going on and more than enough enough to stop us asphyxiating in our bedrooms at night.

The thing is enough holes prevents stratification of the CO2 laden air which must drain out the bottom, diffuse in all directions, get displaced by water vapor, get flushed by room currents or convect up and out to be replaced by fresh air.

No one process can be discounted but as a qualified rocket motor test engineer, I'm in favor of convection being the major shotgun FAE process (in still air, thanks Luigi).


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OfflineLuigiMario
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: tugwax]
    #11504904 - 11/22/09 03:02 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Haha I like how this thread has attracted all the engineers on the forum.

I would be curious to see what would happen if you were to put a small FC inside of another container- so that there was air around the FC for circulation but the air itself would be stagnant. That way any and all movement of air inside of the FC would have to be contributed to pressure/temperature gradients moving the air around.

I would volunteer for this experiment but my first grow is still being worked on lol

-Luigi:1up:

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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: LuigiMario]
    #11505109 - 11/22/09 03:42 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

RR is right on this one. The air around the perlite is more dense, thus at the edges it will spread out in all direction attempting to normalize pressure with the surrounding environment. This will cause air to flow from the perlite to the lower density and warmer area above. The perlite does not heat the air, it cools it. As it cools, it becomes more dense. As this density is leveled with the surrounding enviornment, air flows from perlite into FC.

Heated air has absolutely nothing to do with the FC. It is not hot air that flows from the perlite up, it is cool air. The perlite draws in hot air and cools it. This denser air expands upward into the FC. The air in the FC is both warmer and less dense.

It's really pretty simple. :thumbup:

Also, one of the main reasons the air flows up instead of out or down is because up has the most surface area exposed.

Edited by nooneman (11/22/09 03:50 PM)

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Offlineimnorml
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11505400 - 11/22/09 04:38 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Since we're comparing qualifications, I'm studying for my masters degree in physics with a concentration in statistical mechanics and have taught high school physics, for what it's worth.  Anyway...

Weather is driven by pressure differentials, I agree.  These differentials only matter because you are talking about a huge system where the pressure differentials can be great.  In our tiny system, the pressure differentials are almost nil and have a negligible effect on total air movement.

Quote:

according to wikipedia entry on ideal gasses
At normal ambient conditions such as standard temperature and pressure, most real gases behave qualitatively like an ideal gas.




You can think of the ideal gas law (PV=nRT) in simpler terms by dividing through by V:
P=(T*n)/V, or
P=T*(n/V)
n/V is number of particles per volume, ie DENSITY, D. 

(As long as we're not calculating exact numbers and only looking at relationships, we can leave out the constant R.)

So we have
P=TD. 
Pressure is proportional to Temperature times Density. 

In an unsealed container, pressure stays pretty much the same because anytime you have a low pressure area, molecules from a higher pressure area move in to equalize very quickly.  This is the idea that RR is talking about.

If we had a closed container and cooled the air within, the pressure would drop because the molecules don't move as fast and don't push as hard on their surroundings. The density is fixed because the container is sealed (volume and number of particles remain the same)

We are not dealing with a closed system, though, so as we cool the air in the perlite, the pressure drop caused by the drop in temperature is accompanied by air moving in from all angles, increasing the density to stabilize the pressure.

This is very important.  The air moving in to the perlite STABILIZES THE PRESSURE.  It will certainly not increase the pressure above ambient.  The decrease in pressure caused by the decrease in temperature is PRECISELY COMPENSATED by the increase in density.

In other words, pressure stays the same throughout the chamber.  The things that are free to change in this system are temperature and density.  On average, the air in the FC is warmer than room air (even if the perlite is a little cooler).  It is also more humid than room air.  Both of these things make the air less dense.  Less dense air rises.  The air in the chamber moves up, drawing the air from in the perlite up to take its place.  You'll also get a chimney effect from the air rising above the light source.

Since density is free to change in the system and pressure is not, the density gradient will be much greater than any pressure gradient and have a much greater effect.

Higher temperature and humidity cause most of the air movement within the shotgun fruiting chamber.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
24/7 light is harmful to fungi and degrades performance.




Thanks, I'll avoid doing this.

Also, Doc, I have a system set up to do a comparison right now.  I'll have to do a couple of runs to eliminate some other variables, but I'll get back to you regarding how it goes.

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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: nooneman]
    #11505408 - 11/22/09 04:39 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

This is some serious mental masturbation. Holes on the bottom are good. Terrarium without holes can also do just fine. These explanations are nothing more than speculation. There's always a small upcurrent that magically carries the spores to the top of the cap. It would take a supercomputer and an MIT grad to model all these factors with any degree of accuracy.


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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: anonjon]
    #11505687 - 11/22/09 05:22 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

im using the perlite tek but im having a hell of a time keeping high humity. ive pulled the holes and sparyed a lot of water in to the terrarium but not not on the cake it self. I just dont know where im going wrong? need help

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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: teamchaos]
    #11505699 - 11/22/09 05:23 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

i pluged the holes

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Invisibledeucedbi9
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: anonjon]
    #11505716 - 11/22/09 05:25 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

all i know is...
see sig

and. RR's shotguns make good dehydraters if you add a comp' fan to them.


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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: deucedbi9]
    #11505752 - 11/22/09 05:30 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

what . . good dehydrators? theyre designed to keep it humid and moist, i would think it would be an awful dehydrator, unless you dont add moistened perlite . . in which case its just a box with holes and not a shotgun

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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: nightshd]
    #11505770 - 11/22/09 05:33 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

nightshd said: in which case its just a box with holes and not a shotgun





Box with holes was the original name for shotgun fc, but it never became popular...


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The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


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Invisibledeucedbi9
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: nightshd]
    #11505909 - 11/22/09 05:51 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

you just gave me a bbbrilliant idea.
i'll take the moist perlite out in future!
think they'll dry quicker? LOL
if you're from the US that's called sarcasm. ffs


--------------------
whether low pressure sucks or high pressure blows...
it's a bugger to cycle in.

even though I'm feeling good
Something tells me I'd better activate my prayer capsule

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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: deucedbi9]
    #11506041 - 11/22/09 06:11 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

the gas weight is what RR is adressing as i see; CO2 sinks in ambient air to the floor if undisturbed by wind. shrooms like O2 at their feet, on the floor so to speek. thus the air x change minus wind that shotgunn provides is perfect, fruit reaching up to oxygen to fan it's own feet. think of that mossy trunk with a stump near it and how the ambiant air is with not a breath of air, no breeze or wind, you are hardly breathing.
watch them explode the area they are about to become into...moving everything away and BREATHING!!

4:10 baby!!


--------------------
i don't know, but i know i don't know. i'm sure i know this.  if you can't grow it don't take it

it wants me to get involved, but i won't. if i get involved why would i come back? I'll just set here and watch. it will be better for now to stay here. but i sure would like to get involved...

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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: imnorml]
    #11506317 - 11/22/09 06:53 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

imnorml said:
Since we're comparing qualifications, I'm studying for my masters degree in physics with a concentration in statistical mechanics and have taught high school physics, for what it's worth.  Anyway...




Pics or it didn't happen.
Quote:


In an unsealed container, pressure stays pretty much the same because anytime you have a low pressure area, molecules from a higher pressure area move in to equalize very quickly.  This is the idea that RR is talking about.

If we had a closed container and cooled the air within, the pressure would drop because the molecules don't move as fast and don't push as hard on their surroundings. The density is fixed because the container is sealed (volume and number of particles remain the same)

We are not dealing with a closed system, though, so as we cool the air in the perlite, the pressure drop caused by the drop in temperature is accompanied by air moving in from all angles, increasing the density to stabilize the pressure.




As the perlite cools the air, the air becomes more dense. It does not become less dense. This is the whole problem with your argument. Cool air is more dense, not less dense. This density is perpetually trying to stabilize itself with the surrounding environment, which draws air into the perlite to be cooled as it emits air into the FC. Air moves away from high density toward low density, not from low density to high density.
Quote:


Also, Doc, I have a system set up to do a comparison right now.  I'll have to do a couple of runs to eliminate some other variables, but I'll get back to you regarding how it goes.



Good luck.

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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: nooneman]
    #11511790 - 11/23/09 03:02 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Interesting how the question was answered in the first post and how every contribution included little theory rivulets away from putting it into plain terms.

The Wikipedia entry under Water Vapor spells it out..

Air and water vapor density interactions at equal temperatures
At the same temperature, a column of dry air will be denser or heavier than a column of air containing any water vapor. Thus, any volume of dry air will sink if placed in a larger volume of moist air. Also, a volume of moist air will rise or be buoyant if placed in a larger region of dry air.

And

Gravitational convection is a general term for buoyancy-induced convection in a gravity field, especially that not due directly to heat.


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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: tugwax]
    #11516168 - 11/24/09 01:02 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

tugwax said:


Air and water vapor density interactions at equal temperatures
At the same temperature, a column of dry air will be denser or heavier than a column of air containing any water vapor. Thus, any volume of dry air will sink if placed in a larger volume of moist air. Also, a volume of moist air will rise or be buoyant if placed in a larger region of dry air.

And

Gravitational convection is a general term for buoyancy-induced convection in a gravity field, especially that not due directly to heat.





Tugwax explains shotgun FC in two sentences!!

-Luigi:1up:

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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: imnorml]
    #12976818 - 07/30/10 01:19 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

i have just set up my shotgun. (with a twist) i put holes all along the bottom of the tub (no holes above 4 inches) and in the floor. i have sealed the lid as well. i have a tropic aire humidifier/air exchanger the pump i am using is an elite 803 which was recommended for the size of my shotgun. i am doing this with the idea that tropic aire will pump humid air into the shot gun and push the co2 out through the bottom holes. i also have 2 inches of perlite in the bottom of the shot gun. i would like to hear some feed back on this set up by some people who know better then i do about fae and such. thanks.

 


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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: rickypistols]
    #12976841 - 07/30/10 01:25 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Pumps don't provide much airflow. And CO2 does not "settle out".


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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: LuigiMario]
    #12977141 - 07/30/10 02:35 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

tugwax said:
Air and water vapor density interactions at equal temperatures
At the same temperature, a column of dry air will be denser or heavier than a column of air containing any water vapor.




Why?


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The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


:moon:  :moon:  :moon:  :moon:    :moon:

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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: rickypistols]
    #12977163 - 07/30/10 02:39 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

rickypistols said:
i have just set up my shotgun. (with a twist) i put holes all along the bottom of the tub (no holes above 4 inches) and in the floor. i have sealed the lid as well. i have a tropic aire humidifier/air exchanger the pump i am using is an elite 803 which was recommended for the size of my shotgun. i am doing this with the idea that tropic aire will pump humid air into the shot gun and push the co2 out through the bottom holes. i also have 2 inches of perlite in the bottom of the shot gun. i would like to hear some feed back on this set up by some people who know better then i do about fae and such. thanks.

 






I think you are trying to reverse the natural air current that is described in detail in this thread. I think it is counter-productive and ultimately your results will be the same or worse than a regular passive shotgun fc.


--------------------
The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: anonjon]
    #13007354 - 08/05/10 01:22 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

well im getting great results with this set-up i birthed my cakes four days ago and already seeing lots of heathy pins. i understand what the topic of this thread is thanks for being cynical, next time i will be sure to post on a thread more open to experimentation.

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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: rickypistols] * 1
    #13007396 - 08/05/10 01:30 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

rickypistols said:
thanks for being cynical, next time i will be sure to post on a thread more open to experimentation.




Predicting results is not being cynical.  You asked what people's thoughts were and anonjon gave you his.  Keep us posted on how it goes.  Experimentation is how we all learn.
RR


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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: rickypistols]
    #13007450 - 08/05/10 01:41 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

rickypistols said:
well im getting great results with this set-up.




Pics?


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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: Doc_T]
    #13007776 - 08/05/10 02:48 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

:popcorn:

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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: ModularMind]
    #13010455 - 08/06/10 01:11 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

An email exchange I had with Marc/RR back in April:

Quote:

Your shotgun terrarium is amazing, and I actually use a modified version of it that I came up with entirely independently.  The difference between our terrariums is that I only drill holes into the bottom.

High pressure air does indeed have a tendency to flow toward low pressure areas in an attempt to equalize the volume of air in a space, but this is predominantly a horizontal flow.  Warmer air has fewer molecules per volume (less dense) than colder air, making it "lighter".  This is why hot air balloons rise, and why cold air doesn't "rush up" into the balloon which contains lower pressure air.

Besides cold air sinking and warm air rising, CO2 is actually more dense than air at the same temperature - you can literally collect CO2 in a container and "pour" it onto a candle to extinguish the flame as a demonstration.  Following this train of logic, CO2 produced by the fungus "sinks" out of the lower holes in the terrarium, and fresh air rises in through them.

So you see, the CO2 produced is actually descending out of your terrarium, not ascending out of it.  What's keeping your terrarium nice and humid? That would be the fact that once water vaporizes it's actually lighter than air and rises.  Given a large enough terrarium, like the Earth itself, you'll see clouds as a result.

I'm "An Errant Egret" on the Shroomery forums and have been trying to get people to understand these concepts for a while now.  I learned this stuff in grade school science, but from what I understand it's not common knowledge.  Feel free to verify all this information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_vapor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CO2
http://ezinearticles.com/?Why-Does-Cold-Air-Fall-and-Warm-Air-Rise?&id=302338

-- AEE




Quote:

The CO2 doesn't just sink out the bottom.  It mixes with the air and flows out in all directions, based on whatever the currents are doing.  CO2 is heavier than air, but it doesn't form a layer on the bottom, since there's holes on all six sides of the terrarium.  If CO2 didn't mix with the air, people in large cities would all be dead from it collecting at the surface where they live.

I'm well aware of density and its relationship with pressure.  I'm a long-time commercial pilot, aerobatic pilot, glider pilot, and balloon pilot as well as certified flight instructor.  I'm also a mechanical engineer. The shotgun terrarium performs more than just to get the CO2 out.  It humidifies the air too.  In order to get maximum humidity AND fresh air, you should be using holes on all six sides.  The lower density air in the top of the chamber tends to be equalized by the higher density air flowing through the perlite.  The air in the perlite is cooler and denser due to evaporative cooling.

I experimented with terrariums with holes on the bottom only, bottom and top, and all six sides.  I use a CO2 meter to measure levels, and trust me, it' FAR lower CO2 readings with holes in all six sides.

I agree the majortity of people at shroomery don't understand the physics involved.
RR




Quote:

I never meant to indicate that it [the CO2] didn't mix with the air.  If undisturbed, however, it will "settle out" and sink, as it does in my terrarium where there are no air currents.  The key to mine is having enough space in the substrate to allow this to happen.  CO2 levels are much higher in the lower atmosphere than in the upper atmosphere, which you already know based on your experience.  Without air currents preventing CO2 from being circulated (and the carbon cycle cleansing it from the atmosphere), yes, everyone in the lowest altitudes in the world would indeed die.

Water vapor is lighter than air and will rise, so the damp perlite underneath is indeed serving the purpose of humidifying the above environment, but that's not dependent on air currents.  If you want to do an experiment, you can put a damp towel and a hygrometer into a container only aerated at the bottom, and do the same in a fully aerated container.  You'll see that the first container will lose almost no moisture, whereas the aerated one will over time.  I'm just pointing out what I see as a logical error in the theory of operation insofar as the moisture distribution, since as you'll agree higher pressure (colder) air doesn't rise without some kind of "push".  And as far as I can tell, you didn't use any kind apparatus which would force the cold air or CO2 to rise.

I have no doubt that more CO2 would be eliminated by more aeration holes.  That's just common sense.  I'm a microbiologist (with a degree in electromechanical engineering as well - hey there engineer buddy!) and have probably spent as much time preparing biological terrariums as you have spent flying.  Mycology is a new subject for me, so I'm still fine tuning my terrarium methods.  I have absolutely no doubt that your terrariums work very well based on my education and experience and didn't email you to say, "You're doing it wrong."  I just wanted to point out what I've learned over years of terrarium preparation (albeit for biologicals other than fungi) and a formal education in the matter.

RogerRabbit, hope we didn't get off on the wrong foot -- here OR in the forums.  In regards to mushroom fruiting (specifically my indoor Azurescens) is the elimination of CO2 or the retention of humidity a greater factor?  Could you indicate the total area of the holes you drilled (I can do the math, I just the number of holes @ 1/4") in relation to the total volume of your terrariums?  Also, how much substrate is in them?  At what temperature do you keep them?  I'm trying to figure out the "magic number" that'll allow me to retain enough moisture for fruiting at a specific temperature while eliminating as much CO2 as possible, since the refrigerated environment won't vaporize my water as quickly.

Thanks,
-- AEE




Quote:

I can't give you the engineering specs on the shotgun because I used the old 'trial and error' method, coupled with my CO2 detector.  The inspiration for the design came from working my first job as an engineer on the Alaska Pipeline project back in 1973-74.  We had self-contained non-powered refrigeration systems in each pipe support in order to keep the ground frozen, preventing movement which would destroy the pipeline during the summer months.  Instead of air being heated by the temperature differential, it was ammonia, which was then bled through an expansion valve to absorb heat, with the 'evaporator' coil below ground level.  Thus, the warmer the air got, the colder the pipe supports got below ground.  Nearly 40 years later, that system is still in place and functioning with no external power.

I can tell you it's going to be an uphill battle trying to fruit P azurescens indoors.  They simply don't do well at all.  I've tried many times over the years, and have a few mushrooms to show for it, but not anything to make it worth the effort.  Azures seem to need the microbes in the soil to fruit properly.  When you add these in a terrarium setting, molds follow soon afterwards.  They also want an increase in temperature during the daytime, with a significant drop at night.  I find them in nature in sunny areas where the soil heats up to 80F or so during the day, but temps drop to or near freezing at night.  I'd suggest spawning to an outdoor bed and let nature take care of it.

In a shotgun, the mechanism for causing the cold air to rise up through the perlite is the less dense air in the fruiting section of the terrarium itself, due to lighting and substrate heat.  This doesn't compare to  balloon where the air is heated and sealed by the envelope.  In a shotgun terrarium, the less dense air above the perlite is 'neutralized' by the higher density air in the perlite, creating constant circulation, which in turn causes more evaporative cooling, etc.  I've moved on to commercial mushroom farming, so can't grow psilocybes any more, thus I won't be doing any more experimenting with terrariums.

Good luck and no offense taken.
Marc




What I learned from all of this (and my "Oven Sterilized TC Grow" thread) is that it's virtually useless to argue with people on these boards as their minds are generally already made up and locked on to an idea unless you can provide overwhelming photographic proof of the contrary - when you can photograph air let me know. Irony indeed, as most of the people here would probably consider anti-drug laws to be produced by closed-minded people. Regardless of the mechanism(s) at play in the shotgun terrarium it works, can we leave it at that?


--------------------
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So please, tell me in detail about the jack I don't know about shit that I might be privileged enough to glean a morsel of knowledge from your immense experience.

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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: An Errant Egret]
    #13010970 - 08/06/10 06:35 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

can literally collect CO2 in a container and "pour" it onto a candle to extinguish the flame as a demonstration.  Following this train of logic, CO2 produced by the fungus "sinks" out of the lower holes in the terrarium, and fresh air rises in through them.





CO2 doesn't settle out of air.
Yes, you can pour it- but leave that container alone, and the CO2 is gone.

If carbon dioxide settled out of air, it would not be safe to sleep on the floor.
Or on Earth, for that matter.

"But what if the air is still?!?"
"It's not. Not in an fc"


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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: Doc_T]
    #13017516 - 08/07/10 02:48 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Doc_T said:
CO2 doesn't settle out of air.
Yes, you can pour it- but leave that container alone, and the CO2 is gone.

If carbon dioxide settled out of air, it would not be safe to sleep on the floor.
Or on Earth, for that matter.

"But what if the air is still?!?"
"It's not. Not in an fc"




You're arguing for the practical side, whereas I'm explaining the principal side. While I left out a few emails afterward in which I admit that the practicality of air currents probably play a larger role in the shotgun terrarium than the principals of molecular weight, I've made terrariums which rely exclusively on molecular weight with ventilation only on the bottom. There's really very little difference in the outcome except for a reduction in contamination potential in the more controlled environment.

Principally, a fired bullet falls as fast as a dropped one. Practically, it's fired at such a speed as to render this decent due to gravity almost a non-factor in all but very very long range shooting.


--------------------
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So please, tell me in detail about the jack I don't know about shit that I might be privileged enough to glean a morsel of knowledge from your immense experience.

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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: An Errant Egret]
    #13017606 - 08/07/10 03:07 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I've made terrariums which rely exclusively on molecular weight with ventilation only on the bottom




Not at any temperature above absolute zero. Air just doesn't act like that.
Believe what you like, but please stop trying to argue this point. You are beyond your ken here.


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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: Doc_T]
    #13020218 - 08/08/10 01:41 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Doc_T said:
Not at any temperature above absolute zero. Air just doesn't act like that.
Believe what you like, but please stop trying to argue this point. You are beyond your ken here.




:rolleyes:


--------------------
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So please, tell me in detail about the jack I don't know about shit that I might be privileged enough to glean a morsel of knowledge from your immense experience.

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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: anonjon]
    #13020769 - 08/08/10 08:22 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

rr is the shit at explaining the bigger picture. I like this thread because Ive had the same thoughts about it. I know it works but I dont agree with why it works on the lets grow mush series. By the way my light source is 8 ft away from my sg fc and its fluorescent so it "heating" anything near my fc is not plausible and it sits on a shelf next to other things that prob limit currents outside the chamber. I pose that if a better model of this setup was taught to the new guys and in the teks we would see more advancement in the design of sg fc's and prob mono-tubs even though both work fine as is.


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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: affliction] * 1
    #13020919 - 08/08/10 09:27 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

By the way my light source is 8 ft away from my sg fc and its fluorescent so it "heating" anything near my fc is not plausible




Mushroom substrates produce heat which lowers the pressure by moving the air molecules farther apart, and humid air is less dense than dry air.  The heat from a light is only one factor out of many.

Regardless of the air exchange physics discussion above, you'll get better fruiting performance by moving it much closer.  The amount of light received by your mycelium decreases by the square of the distance the light moves away.  Try to get your fluorescent fixture within 12" or so of your fruiting chamber and pinning and fruiting performance will go significantly up. 

To repeat for the 1,000th time for those who don't understand physics 101, CO2 doesn't miraculously separate from air and fall out the bottom.  The CO2 mixes with the air and raises the total amount of CO2 in PPM of the air.  If CO2 settled to the ground in our heavily polluted planet, we'd all be dead already from living on the surface.  Instead, CO2 can be detected in the highest levels of the stratosphere.

The reason a terrarium works with holes only on the bottom is the same reason that ten years ago terrariums 'worked' with no holes, drip shields, and instructions to never mist the mushrooms and keep them in the dark while colonizing at 86F and don't worry about light when fruiting.  However, we've progressed far beyond that prehistoric level as can be seen by the grows noobs are turning out on their very first attempt, compared to what the 'experts' were doing ten years ago.  A Model T was great in its time and nobody says it didn't work, but if you're going cross-country today, a new Cadillac or Boeing jet will serve your purposes much better.
RR


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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13021994 - 08/08/10 02:26 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

An Errant Egret said:
- when you can photograph air let me know. Regardless of the mechanism(s) at play in the shotgun terrarium it works, can we leave it at that?







These reishi spores could be observed flying UP and out the hole in a swirling motion.



You can clearly see the spores deposited on the lid.

Quote:

An Errant Egret said:
it's virtually useless to argue with people on these boards as their minds are generally already made up and locked on to an idea unless you can provide overwhelming photographic proof of the contrary




convinced?

btw...
Psychological projection or projection bias (including Freudian Projection) is the unconscious act of denial of a person's own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, such as to the weather, a tool, or to other people. Thus, it involves imagining or projecting that others have those feelings.

Edited by anonjon (08/08/10 02:36 PM)

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OfflineAn Errant Egret
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: anonjon]
    #13025128 - 08/09/10 04:15 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

anonjon said:
These reishi spores could be observed flying UP and out the hole in a swirling motion.




Well hip hip hooray for them I guess? I not only fail to see motion in a still photograph, but relevance.

Quote:

You can clearly see the spores deposited on the lid.




No, I see a piece of clear something with holes in it, with brown smudges of something else in, on, or under it. Maybe with better pictures I'd be seeing something I could make heads or tails of, but seriously I can't even tell which way gravity is going in your picture. Not to shit on it or you, just saying.

Quote:

convinced?




Of what? I feel like I'm missing out on something here.

Quote:

Psychological projection or projection bias (including Freudian Projection) is the unconscious act of denial of a person's own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, such as to the weather, a tool, or to other people. Thus, it involves imagining or projecting that others have those feelings.




Perhaps you missed the part where I basically said that multiple mechanisms for CO2 elimination are probably working simultaneously? I'm not the one denying that heavier molecules sink despite scientific laws, observable phenomenon, and daily experience. Don't hold up four fingers and expect me to count it as three just because everyone else does, then suggest that I'm projecting closed-mindedness.

Yet another example/comparison/whatever... yes, I'm going to keep doing these until I hit on the one which makes people go, "Ohhh..." Personally I thought the water/oil mixture was the perfect illustration of fluid dynamic properties since that's how I got my 8 year old to understand these principles, but here goes (again).

Imagine the water lapping up on the shore at the beach. It carries with it small grains of sand due to the disturbances and turbulances  which temporarily suspend the silicate molecules amongst the water molecules. Obviously, if left still, the silicates would settle to the bottom as they're heavier than the surrounding water molecules. Read up on Fluid Mechanics if you want to learn all the long boring technical stuff they teach in physics classes that I've been trying to summarize here. Fluid dynamics and fluid statics are sub-branches dealing with fluids in motion and stasis, respectively.

And before you reply without at the very least reading the wikipedia article you should know that fluids include liquids, gases, and plasmas.


--------------------
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So please, tell me in detail about the jack I don't know about shit that I might be privileged enough to glean a morsel of knowledge from your immense experience.

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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: An Errant Egret]
    #13027518 - 08/09/10 03:59 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

if I light a match, blow it out, and drop it in the chamber. Then I place the lid on.

If the air is flowing downward, there should be a noticeable affect on the smoke. Should be fairly simple to demonstrate its actually flowing up, not down.

Not to discount your vast knowledge of fluid dynamics. I am a feeble-minded peasant.


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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: Doc_T]
    #13039705 - 08/12/10 12:25 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

these pics are from day 7-8. for some reason or other this one cake took off faster then the rest but you can see other little pins on the other cakes beside it. haven't really changed my set up just changed the timer on the tropic aire to 1/2 an hour on every 1-1/2 hours. had to mist maybe once or twice because humidity dropped a little but its been maintaing 95% rh pretty good. i unsealed the lid just in case i have to get in there with the mister again. its been about 15-16 days now and all the cakes are looking real nice. i will post more pics when i get my camera back from the shop.

also i only used the word cynical because i didn't gain any knowledge from his post and i didn't really like the skepticism about how he thought it wouldn't or would work because it wasn't an example of the shotgun fruiting chamber "described in detail" on this thread. but whatever its not even worth this reply. 

im open to any suggestions that may help or advance this type of set up. its working pretty good right now as far as maintaing it self, but i know it could be better.

oh and i forgot to mention that when i did open it to mist it i also gave is a good fanning but other then that no fanning.


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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: rickypistols]
    #13040600 - 08/12/10 09:37 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

After 15 to 16 days, you should have harvested full size fruits by now. 

The humidifier is probably keeping a steady-state moisture content.  A fluctuating humidity and temperature, coupled with fresh air exchange and light are the main pinning triggers. 

If you don't have evaporation of moisture from the substrate, they pin poorly if at all.
RR


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Air movement in chamber [Re: anonjon]
    #13040653 - 08/12/10 09:56 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

anonjon said:
if I light a match, blow it out, and drop it in the chamber. Then I place the lid on.

If the air is flowing downward, there should be a noticeable affect on the smoke. Should be fairly simple to demonstrate its actually flowing up, not down.

Not to discount your vast knowledge of fluid dynamics. I am a feeble-minded peasant.




I wonder what a piece of dry ice in the center would do. As it sublimates any air currents would be evident. I guess the colder air would influence the natural air movements, but so does the heated smoke particles for that matter. Anyway just an idea....

Edited by conformist (08/12/10 11:49 AM)

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Re: Air movement in chamber [Re: conformist]
    #13041046 - 08/12/10 11:41 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

the pics i have posted were 7 days after birthing, and all the cakes were pinning (its just hard to see in the pics). just that one cake was more eager then the rest and blew up. but now its been like i said roughly 16-17 days and im about ready to harvest. i have already harvested the bigger pins that are in these pics because  they were ready before the rest. im a little confused about the pinning trigger theories out there because i have read that steady humidity/temp and light and lots of fae is what causes them to pin and i have read that changes in humidity/temp and light is the best along with fae which seems to be a consistent in all the things i have read. also i have read that the cakes wont pin until the substrate is completely colonized and nutrients become scarce. with these cakes i let them sit a week after the jars were completely white on the outside so maybe they didn't colonize as fast as i thought. and all the cakes were made with the exact same substrate, so i dont know what made the one cake grow so much faster then the others. maybe it has something to do with the airflow inside my fc. i will post more pics when i get a chance my battery in my camera bit the dust, and i will try to tweak my fc. and sorry about the pic quality my camera again sucks.

i know that its a off topic for this thread, but is it common for one cake to fruit faster then the rest and what would cause it? all the other cake grew at the same pace.







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Re: Air movement in chamber [Re: rickypistols]
    #13041099 - 08/12/10 11:54 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

rickypistols said:
im a little confused about the pinning trigger theories out there because i have read that steady humidity/temp and light and lots of fae is what causes them to pin and i have read that changes in humidity/temp and light is the best along with fae which seems to be a consistent in all the things i have read. also i have read that the cakes wont pin until the substrate is completely colonized and nutrients become scarce.



The one major change to conditions, from colonization to fruiting, that is, going from a warmer, co2 rich, dark environment to a cooler, fresh air, lighted environment induces pinning.
The reason you would wait till full colonization it to help avoid allowing contamination to get on the substrate.

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Re: Air movement in chamber [Re: conformist]
    #13044005 - 08/12/10 10:16 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

thanks that is one of the key points that i have read and learned, and is why i let them incubate for an extra week. i got this info from the pf tek outline and it does seem to ring true.

im just curious as to why the one cake would fruit so fast compared to the others.
also i wasnt to impressed with the fruit size off that one cake. when i had to harvest them the fruits were only about 2 inches tall and the caps were roughly the size of a dime before the veils started to break. is this a strain issue or maybe the conditions in the fc. the other cakes are still in pin mode and look bigger then the fruits on the first cake that pinned.

also im done posting my progress on this thread i think it starting to get off topic so i will post a log from start to finish. thanks every one for the advice on my fc even though its not convetional.

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Re: Air movement in chamber [Re: rickypistols]
    #13044084 - 08/12/10 10:33 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


im just curious as to why the one cake would fruit so fast compared to the others




If you inoculated with a spore syringe, you'll end up with different strains in each jar.  That one cake had a much better performing strain.  If the other qualities of that strain are nice, it's a good choice to clone for future use.
RR


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Re: Air movement in chamber [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13044378 - 08/12/10 11:40 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

thanks for that, it makes sense. i did use a spore syringe. but dont think i have the experience yet to start cloning. im just playing around with some different ideas. plus i think the fruits were a to small to print.

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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: imnorml]
    #18880022 - 09/23/13 10:36 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Hi :smile:  (technical physics engineering and theoretical physics major drop out, and now pilot going for a crop dusting job RR :wink: <3 <3 )...

Somehow only holes in the top and bottom makes sense, but it's only gut feeling, so how did the comparison experiment go? if it makes for a better flow what would the spacing be with 1/4'' holes? If my FC is transparent and i an well lit room, do i still need light? (is the light needed to help air exchange?)

shroomy nooby...

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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: guldkakao]
    #20610824 - 09/24/14 10:41 AM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Is it possible that the SGFC works because the energy need for evep to occur is pulled from what ever is near the water... air and perlite... thus the evaporation process itself is driving the air flow?
I know this is an outdated thread but its definitely a good one for someone researching a SGFC like myself... discovering the mechanics behind why will pave the way for true innovation... please help me revive this thread! I have Qs i need As to.

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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: oon-dahbbins]
    #20610841 - 09/24/14 10:46 AM (9 years, 6 months ago)

fresh air makes evap happen. just let this thread die.
Principles of the SGFC

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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: spacechildo]
    #20611363 - 09/24/14 12:56 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

well litterally water evaps because of molecular kenetic enrgy...  its surface tension is broken by free roaming h2o molecules... this is why it will evap waaay under its boiling point... it does this by literally pulling thermal energy from what it is in contact with. thats why its cold when you get out of the pool on a hot day... water leeches thermal energy. is anyone positive(proof?) that the direction of current in a SGFC is bottom up... is there truly a need for the bottom holes...?


I do realize the spelling errors...

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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: oon-dahbbins]
    #20611385 - 09/24/14 01:00 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Well considering that the heat and humidity currents generated by the cakes and perlite both rise, I would say so yea.

And if these currents are rising out the top holes, it only makes sense to have bottom holes that the new fresh air can be pulled thru and at the same time be pulled thru the perlite to cause evaporation and humidify the chamber.

Edited by PussyFart (09/24/14 01:01 PM)

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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: PussyFart]
    #20962431 - 12/11/14 03:09 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

I haven't taken time to read the entire thread, but it seems everyone is missing one very crucial fact: mushroom growing/fruiting creates carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide is heavier than air and therefore sinks to the bottom of the fruiting chamber. Holes in the bottom portion of the chamber allow the carbon dioxide to escape, creating a slight differential pressure (vacuum) in the upper portions of the chamber, therefore "sucking in" fresh air. Its all about removal of the CO2 that makes the SGFC so successful.

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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: sput28401]
    #20962547 - 12/11/14 03:36 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

I think this is the guy we flamed back when who was looking for a formula for a new SGFC and RR shut him down. From the same region.


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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: taGyo]
    #20962589 - 12/11/14 03:44 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

I wondered who'd get "first shot".

that was this guys 1st post tho. member for a year. wow.

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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: sput28401]
    #20962605 - 12/11/14 03:46 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sput28401 said:
I haven't taken time to read the entire thread, but it seems everyone is missing one very crucial fact: mushroom growing/fruiting creates carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide is heavier than air and therefore sinks to the bottom of the fruiting chamber. Holes in the bottom portion of the chamber allow the carbon dioxide to escape, creating a slight differential pressure (vacuum) in the upper portions of the chamber, therefore "sucking in" fresh air.



You are missing one key factor....heat and humidity currents.....they are constantly rising.....

Yes co2 is heavier than air, but only by a fraction....it mixes with the air and rises out the top holes riding the heat and humidity currents....

If you had a co2 meter you would see that co2 is in fact higher towards the top of the fruiting chamber than the bottom....

Co2 does not, and will not ever sink to the bottom of a fruiting chamber.....the bottom holes are to let fresh air in and up thru the moist perlite, which wicks moisture into the chamber......

Quote:

sput28401 said:
Its all about removal of the CO2 that makes the SGFC so successful.



True....



Edited by PussyFart (12/11/14 03:49 PM)

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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: PussyFart]
    #20963185 - 12/11/14 05:50 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

CO2 mixes so well with air in fact that in the brewing industry they have basically disproved the hypothesis that CO2 sits on top of the beer in a tank so it's OK to transfer it around and let atmosphere come into the tank rather than pushing from a CO2 line to be the positive displacement as a tank empties. A dissolved O2 meter shows the CO2 blanket theory is bullshit and that's in a closed tank. They also don't install CO2 alarms on the floor since it really doesn't matter.

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