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Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible
    #11474921 -

From Telepathy - Wikipedia:
Quote:
Telepathy (Greek τηλε, tele meaning "distant" and πάθεια, patheia meaning "to be affected by",) is supposed to be the transfer of information on thoughts or feelings between individuals by means other than the five senses (See Psi). The term was coined in 1882 by the classical scholar Fredric W. H. Myers, a founder of the Society for Psychical Research, specifically to replace the earlier expression thought-transference. A person who is able to make use of telepathy is said to be able to read the thoughts and stored information in the brain of others. Telepathy, along with psychokinesis forms the main branches of parapsychological research, and many studies seeking to detect, understand, utilize telepathy have been done within the field.
There is no accepted mechanism by which telepathy can work, and there is no definition which unambiguously distinguishes it from a number of other related concepts such as clairvoyance, so the concept is not accepted by the scientific community
Telepathy is a common theme in modern fiction and science fiction, with many superheroes and supervillains having telepathic abilities. Such abilities include sensing the thoughts of others.




The telepathy theory implies that one organism can literally perceive the perceptions (e.g.- the thoughts) of other individual organisms, and seeing that perceptions are a function of the brain, it is impossible for one organism with its own brain to be able to perceive any of the perceptions experienced by any other organism; even if an organism's brain state exactly mimicked that of another organism, it would still be the former organism experiencing reality via its own individual perceptions.


I would say that, instead of being telepathic, individuals who claim to have telepathic powers are actually more likely to have a high emotional intelligence.
From Emotional Intelligence:
Quote:
Emotional Intelligence (EI) describes the ability, capacity, skill or, in the case of the trait EI model, a self-perceived ability, to identify, assess, and manage the emotions of one's self, of others, and of groups. Different models have been proposed for the definition of EI and disagreement exists as to how the term should be used. Despite these disagreements, which are often highly technical, the ability EI and trait EI models (but not the mixed models) enjoy support in the literature and have successful applications in different domains.




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (11/17/09 04:31 PM)

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11475000 -

You hafta take the astral plane into account.


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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11475032 -

First-class or business-class? :borfase:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11475035 -



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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: learningtofly]
    #11475118 -

Isn't that the Soul Plane?


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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11475139 -

I think that definition is lacking as it doesn't rule out technology.  Using a cell phone would fit the bill for telepathy using that definition.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: DieCommie]
    #11475157 -

what exactly is the astral plane is it proven in any way, or even a solid conceptual model set forth?


--------------------
Thinking is dreaming wake up and enjoy the dream.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11475161 -

birds do it to me alot, they'll fly close when i'm on the right thought and some will leave when my thought goes "offtrack" you sure animals don't have telepathic abilities?

but to back you you would have to speak on a certain wavelength for a higher sound may block the communication

also, some wouldn't want you to be able to communicate with them telepathically because your thoughts may be impure and might offend the other person

i have been trying to communicate telepathically for almost 5 years now

Edited by giza (11/17/09 05:09 PM)

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: DieCommie]
    #11475181 -

Quote:
Telepathy (Greek τηλε, tele meaning "distant" and πάθεια, patheia meaning "to be affected by",) is supposed to be the transfer of information on thoughts or feelings between individuals by means [gradient:#067016,#]other than the five senses[/gradient] (See Psi).


I don't think you are correct, here.

Is communicating via a cell phone the same thing as communicating information between individuals by means other than the five senses? I don't think so.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11475312 -

You can see microwaves?  I call bull shit.  :tongue:

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: DieCommie]
    #11475316 -

I can hear voices. :shrug:

:blah:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11475331 -

Poid said:
I can hear voices. :shrug:

:blah:



me too, isn't it great

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: giza]
    #11475344 -

I meant over the telephone. :crazy2:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: giza]
    #11475417 -

Quote:
birds do it to me alot, they'll fly close when i'm on the right thought and some will leave when my thought goes "offtrack" you sure animals don't have telepathic abilities?




Demonstrate that you can communicate with birds telepathically and win a million dollars -

or

you can write a dozen posts explaining why you know it's real, but won't take the challenge.


--------------------

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11475452 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
birds do it to me alot, they'll fly close when i'm on the right thought and some will leave when my thought goes "offtrack" you sure animals don't have telepathic abilities?




Demonstrate that you can communicate with birds telepathically and win a million dollars -

or

you can write a dozen posts explaining why you kknow it's real, but won't take the challenge.



i didn't mean i could communicate completely with telepathy, it just seems the birds can, i cannot, but hope to someday be able to, when i try to i end up sending wrong thought or whatever

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: giza]
    #11475456 -

i believe i can percieve telepathy just not allowed to communicate

Edited by giza (11/17/09 05:42 PM)

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: giza]
    #11475465 -

If you can't communicate telepathically, what makes you think that a less intelligent creature can? :confused:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: giza]
    #11475468 -

giza said:
i believe i can percieve telepathy just not allowed to communicate


Can you please elaborate?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11475479 -

Poid said:
If you can't communicate telepathically, what makes you think that a less intelligent creature can? :confused:



because what if the creature gave up the ability to be a human in order to gain telepathy, a creature that is less of a threat when confronted with hostility, wouldn't you rather a bird speak to you telepathically rather than a human?

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11475486 -

Poid said:
giza said:
i believe i can percieve telepathy just not allowed to communicate


Can you please elaborate?



i can understand what they're trying to say to me yet when i try to make them respond for my own benefit i am ignored

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: giza]
    #11475560 -

Maybe what you think you understand is incorrect, and you are just ignored because they have no desire to speak with you. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11475574 -

Poid said:
Maybe what you think you understand is incorrect, and you are just ignored because they have no desire to speak with you. :shrug:



possibly

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: giza]
    #11475588 -

The only way to be closer to finding out the truth about this is by thinking about the situation over and over using rational logic! :wink:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11475594 -

Poid said:
The only way to be closer to finding out the truth about this is by thinking about the situation over and over using rational logic! :wink:



yes i do that alot

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11475595 -

So far, 3 of the 12 predicted sputtering posts that 'explain' why his telepathy is not telepathic - or whatever. :shrug:


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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11475623 -

even if i bump my toe i think it's becausse i was thinking a 'bad' thought or i did something to deserve the pain in my toe

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11475626 -

giza said:
Poid said:
The only way to be closer to finding out the truth about this is by thinking about the situation over and over using rational logic! :wink:



yes i do that alot


For your sake, I hope you do, but to be bluntly honest, I don't believe that you do. :shrug:



OrgoneConclusion said:
So far, 3 of the 12 predicted sputtering posts that 'explain' why his telepathy is not telepathic - or whatever. :shrug:


He's just a :braindamage:
, give him some time. :sadyes:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: giza]
    #11475632 -

giza said:
even if i bump my toe i think it's becausse i was thinking a 'bad' thought or i did something to deserve the pain in my toe


But do you have any proof for this? What if shit just happens. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11475657 -

Poid said:
giza said:
even if i bump my toe i think it's becausse i was thinking a 'bad' thought or i did something to deserve the pain in my toe


But do you have any proof for this? What if shit just happens. :shrug:



that's how i get out of it now "just happened no reason behind it"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: giza]
    #11475665 -

Mmmhmmmm....


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11475716 -

well when something happens to you do you automatically come up with a reason why? I don't know if being like this is good or bad?

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: giza]
    #11475736 -

is telepathy the ability to talk without sound if so i am part-telepathic

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: giza]
    #11475744 -

giza said:
well when something happens to you do you automatically come up with a reason why?


I usually analyze everything that catches my attention, yes.



giza said:
I don't know if being like this is good or bad?


Being like that itself isn't good or bad, it's how it effects the overall quality of your life that defines whether or not it is good or bad.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: giza]
    #11475756 -

giza said:
is telepathy the ability to talk without sound if so i am part-telepathic



Read the article that I quoted, then read the entire link; once you've done that, then you'll be at least somewhat close to my level in terms of knowledge of the term 'telepathy'.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11475773 -

so you can only communicate telepathically if you both have the same knowledge?
isn't the ability to notice suffering or joy a telepathic trait?

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: giza]
    #11475791 -

giza said:
so you can only communicate telepathically if you both have the same knowledge?


No, telepathy is a power that an individual has which allows them to literally perceive the thoughts of others.



giza said:
isn't the ability to notice suffering or joy a telepathic trait?


No, that is the trait of your eyeballs' ability to capture the light spectrum.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: giza]
    #11475910 -

giza said:
even if i bump my toe i think it's becausse i was thinking a 'bad' thought or i did something to deserve the pain in my toe



giza said:
well when something happens to you do you automatically come up with a reason why? I don't know if being like this is good or bad?



I recognize these kinds of anxieties, I'm positive I've experienced them myself. Life seems to get alot easier when you focus less on changing the things in it and focus change the perspective you see it from instead.

Take the good with the bad, they will always come together. The story you're living only holds such immense signifigance to you, it is highly unlikely that there is a god of morality watching all of your decisions and sending you your 'just desserts' through the passage of time.

Is it not more likely to be the ego chattering away in the back of your mind projecting its fears and shoulds? There is a part of us that is always judging, and it especially likes to judge its own actions.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11476821 -

Poid said:
From Telepathy - Wikipedia:
Quote:
Telepathy (Greek ôçëå, tele meaning "distant" and ðÜèåéá, patheia meaning "to be affected by",) is supposed to be the transfer of information on thoughts or feelings between individuals by means other than the five senses (See Psi). The term was coined in 1882 by the classical scholar Fredric W. H. Myers, a founder of the Society for Psychical Research, specifically to replace the earlier expression thought-transference. A person who is able to make use of telepathy is said to be able to read the thoughts and stored information in the brain of others. Telepathy, along with psychokinesis forms the main branches of parapsychological research, and many studies seeking to detect, understand, utilize telepathy have been done within the field.
There is no accepted mechanism by which telepathy can work, and there is no definition which unambiguously distinguishes it from a number of other related concepts such as clairvoyance, so the concept is not accepted by the scientific community
Telepathy is a common theme in modern fiction and science fiction, with many superheroes and supervillains having telepathic abilities. Such abilities include sensing the thoughts of others.




The telepathy theory implies that one organism can literally perceive the perceptions (e.g.- the thoughts) of other individual organisms, and seeing that perceptions are a function of the brain, it is impossible for one organism with its own brain to be able to perceive any of the perceptions experienced by any other organism; even if an organism's brain state exactly mimicked that of another organism, it would still be the former organism experiencing reality via its own individual perceptions.


I would say that, instead of being telepathic, individuals who claim to have telepathic powers are actually more likely to have a high emotional intelligence.
From Emotional Intelligence:
Quote:
Emotional Intelligence (EI) describes the ability, capacity, skill or, in the case of the trait EI model, a self-perceived ability, to identify, assess, and manage the emotions of one's self, of others, and of groups. Different models have been proposed for the definition of EI and disagreement exists as to how the term should be used. Despite these disagreements, which are often highly technical, the ability EI and trait EI models (but not the mixed models) enjoy support in the literature and have successful applications in different domains.





That is totally ridiculous. You are basically saying "because we have not found a way in which it is physically possible then that must prove that it's not.". Most scientists will admit there is plenty we do not know.

As a side note I believe society at large would say telepathy is any form of communication between two brains not through the known senses. Mimicking is still communication.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11477775 -

Quote:
Most scientists will admit there is plenty we do not know.



Thats true, if it wast then all the scientists would be out of a job!  But what is also true is that telepathy has never been demonstrated for all to see - not once.  All there is is emphatic anecdote and emotional intelligence as Poid points out.



Quote:
Mimicking is still communication.



Yes, but it is still via the 5 senses so I dont think that is telepathy.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: DieCommie]
    #11478413 -

What are you talking about? Please re-read my post. I am not trying to argue telepathy is real.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11485493 -

Grapefruit said:
That is totally ridiculous. You are basically saying "because we have not found a way in which it is physically possible then that must prove that it's not.". Most scientists will admit there is plenty we do not know.


No, that is not what I'm basically saying.

A creature is able to perceive because of its functioning brain, and the telepathy theory asserts that one individual creature can perceive the perceptions (e.g.- thoughts) of another individual creature; since perception is a function of the brain, in order for two creatures to literally perceive each others' perceptions, their physical brain would have to merge.



Grapefruit said:
As a side note I believe society at large would say telepathy is any form of communication between two brains not through the known senses.


And what the fuck are these unknown senses?



Grapefruit said:
Mimicking is still communication.


Sure, but it's not telepathy! :lol:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (11/19/09 04:50 PM)

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11485533 -

If I were aloud to eat a shitload of mushrooms with a few certain buddies of mine during the test, I would take it.


--------------------
Nothing is true, everything is permissible.

Our laws make law impossible; our liberties destroy all freedom; our property is organized robbery; our morality an impudent hypocrisy; our wisdom is administered by inexperienced or mal-experienced dupes; our power wielded by cowards and weaklings; and our honour false in all its points. I am an enemy of the existing order for good reasons.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: LuSiD9]
    #11485538 -

What test?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11485550 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Demonstrate that you can communicate telepathically and win a million dollars -





whatever test that would win me a million dollars :shrug:


--------------------
Nothing is true, everything is permissible.

Our laws make law impossible; our liberties destroy all freedom; our property is organized robbery; our morality an impudent hypocrisy; our wisdom is administered by inexperienced or mal-experienced dupes; our power wielded by cowards and weaklings; and our honour false in all its points. I am an enemy of the existing order for good reasons.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: LuSiD9]
    #11485575 -

James Randi Educational Foundation - Wikipedia
Quote:
The One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge

History of the challenge
In 1968, James Randi was working on a radio program with his friend and parapsychologist Stanley Crypter. During one of the programs, a caller challenged him to "put his money where his mouth is", and Randi offered $100 of his own money (even though he wasn't sure if he had $100 at that time[citation needed]) to the first person who could provide objective proof of the paranormal. Eventually[when?] this grew to $1,000 and then $10,000. Later, Lexington Broadcasting wanted him to do a show called the "$100,000 Psychic Prize", so they added $90,000 to the original $10,000 raised by Randi. Finally, in 1996, one of his friends, Internet pioneer Rick Adams donated US $1,000,000 for the prize. As the prize fund grew, the rules that surround claiming the prize became more official and legal.

To claim, one must agree to a protocol for testing, must show in a preliminary test before a foundation representative that they are likely to succeed, and finally make a demonstration in a formal test in front of independent witnesses. To date, over 1,000 applications have been filed but no one has passed a preliminary test, which is set up and agreed upon by both Randi and the applicant.

In the conditions and rules governing the one million U.S.-dollar challenge, Randi plainly states that both parties (himself and the party accepting the challenge) must agree in advance as to what conditions of the test constitute a "success" and what constitutes a "failure." He also refuses to accept any challengers who might suffer serious injury or death as a result of the test they intend to undergo.

Since April 1, 2007 only those with an already existing media profile and the backing of a reputable academic are allowed to apply for the challenge. The resources freed up by not having to test obscure and possibly mentally ill claimants will then be used to challenge high-profile alleged psychics and mediums such as Sylvia Browne and John Edward with a campaign in the media.

Dennis Rawlins claimed the challenge is insincere, and that Randi will ensure he never has to pay out. In the October 1981 issue of Fate, Rawlins quoted him as saying "I always have an out". Others, noting this magazine article grew out of political infighting among the members of CSICOP, believe this quote is being misapplied, and that it refers to the fact that Randi employs safeguards against cheating. Randi has stated that Rawlins did not give the entire quotation. Randi actually said "Concerning the challenge, I always have an 'out': I'm right!" which carries a quite different meaning. Randi claims that the phrase "I always have an out" refers to the fact that he does not allow test subjects to cheat, and others have interpreted it to mean that Randi regards the chances of him having to pay out as zero due to his a priori assumption that so-called "paranormal phenomena" do not exist. On Larry King Live Randi stated that if such phenomena did exist and someone accurately demonstrated it, he would give them one million dollars. So far, only about a thousand people have taken the challenge, and none have been successful.

On Larry King Live, March 6, 2001, Larry King asked Sylvia Browne if she would take the challenge and she agreed. Randi appeared with Browne again on Larry King Live on September 3, 2001 and she again accepted the challenge. However, she has refused to be tested and Randi keeps a clock on his website recording the number of weeks that have passed since Sylvia accepted the challenge without following through. In an appearance on Larry King Live on January 26, 2007, Randi challenged Rosemary Altea to take the one million challenge. On Altea and Randi's June 5, 2001 meeting on the same show, Altea refused to take the challenge, calling it "a trick". Instead Altea, in part, replied "I agree with what he says, that there are many, many people who claim to be spiritual mediums, they claim to talk to the dead. There are many, people, we all know this. There are cheats and charlatans everywhere."

Randi has recently challenged David R. Hawkins to win the prize with Hawkins' "arm-pressing technique" (applied kinesiology), suggesting it would only take thirty minutes of easy work, but believing that Hawkins would not even attempt to apply for the challenge for "obvious" reasons.

As an April Fool's prank on April 1, 2008 at the MIT Media Lab Seth Raphael and James Randi performed a demonstration of Seth Raphael's psychic abilities which was awarded the prize.

Judging the results
The official Challenge rules stipulate that the participant must agree, in writing, to the conditions and criteria of their test. Claims that cannot be tested experimentally are not eligible for the Challenge. To ensure that the experimental conditions themselves do not negatively affect a claimant's ability to perform, non-blinded preliminary control tests are often performed. For example, the JREF has dowsers perform a control test, in which the dowser attempts to locate the target substance or object using their dowsing ability, even though the target's location has been revealed to the applicant. Failure to display a 100% success rate in the open test will cause their immediate disqualification. However, claimants are usually able to perform successfully during the open test, confirming that experimental conditions are adequate. According to the JREF, despite success in these open tests, no claimants have yet been able to successfully demonstrate evidence of their claims while blinded under otherwise identical conditions. Some participants have stated afterwards that the threat of disqualification is the main factor in their apparent success in the open test. Randi has said that few unsuccessful applicants ever seriously consider that their failure to perform might be due to the nonexistence of the power they believe they possess. The discussions between the JREF and applicants were at one time posted on a public discussion board for all to see. Since the resignation of Randi's assistant, Mr. Kramer—and subsequent changes to challenge rules requiring applicants to have demonstrated considerable notability—new applications are no longer logged, but the JREF continues to maintain an archive of previous applicants.

Another objection made by critics of the challenge is that the rules prohibit independent judging, making the success or failure of the challenge dependent on whether Randi agrees that the test has been passed. While acknowledging the prohibition of independent judges, JREF staff and affiliates point out that the nature of the experimental design makes subjective judging of results unnecessary. Since claimants agree to readily observable success criteria prior to the test, results are unambiguous and clearly indicate whether or not the criteria have been met. Critics have also claimed that Randi's degree of control over the conditions of the challenge discourages serious applicants from applying, due to a perception of bias. Randi has said that he need not participate in any way with the actual execution of the test, and he has been willing to travel far from the test location to avoid the perception that his anti-paranormal bias could influence the test results. Additionally, claimants are able to influence all aspects of the testing procedure, including location and participants, during the initial negotiation phase of the challenge.

Additional criticisms of the test and its rules include:

Randi rejected applicant Rico Kolodzey, stating in the rejection letter that the applicant was "a liar and a fraud." The applicant in question claimed to survive without food via Breatharianism.
Randi's response to criticism of his handling of the Kolodzey application raised by the Alternative Science website was somewhat inconsistent. For example, Randi and the JREF explained their outright rejection of Kolodzey based on a policy to reject any applicants who put themselves in grave physical danger. However, this clause was not added to the official Challenge rules until years after the incident.
However, on May 19, 2006, Randi made a special exception to that rule due to all of the "raucous fuss" and began private negotiations for testing with Kolodzey. After 100 days of negotiations a test procedure still could not be agreed upon by both parties. In response to the stalled negotiations, Randi publicly commented that Kolodzey was retreating from testing after strenuously objecting to the rejection of his initial application.
As of January 2005, no offers to conduct a formal test have yet been extended by the JREF to an applicant.
No offers to conduct a formal test have been extended because the rules require that a claimant must first pass a preliminary test, which no applicants have yet passed. According to JREF, over 1,000 applications have been submitted for the Challenge. Of the first 650 applications (through 1982), fifty-four preliminary tests were carried out (Randi 1982:252). Most applications do not result in preliminary testing because they fail during the negotiation of experimental protocols.
Critics have also referred to case of Yellow Bamboo, who claimed that he could knock down attackers by shouting. A volunteer was actually knocked to the ground during a test, but this was not accepted by the JREF as they had already severed all ties with the Yellow Bamboo group before the test was carried out. The JREF also pointed out that the test was not conducted according to the proposed protocol, with multiple flaws in the execution including being carried out at night. Upon viewing a set of still shots from the incident, several people experienced with stun-guns suggested that an electroshock weapon could have been used.
Some claim the one million dollars does not exist, or is in the form of pledges or promissory notes.
The JREF has stated that the million dollars is in the form of negotiable bonds within a "James Randi Educational Foundation Prize Account" and that validation of the account and the prize amount can be supplied on demand. The money is held in a Goldman, Sachs & Company account. A copy of the JREF investment statement is viewable at SkepticReport, and the foundation has repeatedly mailed this evidence to high-profile claimants.

Example of a test (dowsing)
In 1979 Randi tested four people in Italy for dowsing ability (Mr. Fontana, Dr. Borga, Mr. Stanziola, and Mr. Senatore). The prize at the time was $10,000 of Randi's personal money. The conditions were that a 10 meter by 10 meter test area would be used. There would be water supply and a reservoir just outside the test area. There would be three plastic pipes running underground from the source to the reservoir along different concealed paths. Each pipe would pass through the test area by entering at some point on an edge and exiting at some point on an edge. A pipe would not cross itself but it might cross others. The pipes were 3 centimeters in diameter and were buried 50 centimeters below ground. Valves would select which of the pipes water was running through, and only one would be selected at a time. At least 5 liters per second of water would flow through the selected pipe. The dowser must first check the area to see if there is any natural water or anything else that would interfere with the test, and that would be marked. Additionally, the dowser must demonstrate that the dowsing reaction works on an exposed pipe with the water running. Then one of the three pipes would be selected randomly for each trial. The dowser would place ten to one hundred pegs in the ground along the path he traces as the path of the active pipe. Two-thirds of the pegs placed by the dowser must be within 10 centimeters of the center of the pipe being traced for the trial to be a success. Three trials would be done for the test of each dowser and the dowser must pass two of the three trials to pass the test. A lawyer was present, in possession of Randi's $10,000 check. If a claimant were successful, the lawyer would give him the check. If none were successful, the check would be returned to Randi.

All of the dowsers agreed with the conditions of the test and stated that they felt able to perform the test that day and that the water flow was sufficient. Before the test they were asked how sure they were that they would succeed. All said either "99 percent" or "100 percent" certain. They were asked what they would conclude if the water flow was 90 degrees from what they thought it was and all said that it was impossible. After the test they were asked how confident they were that they had passed the test. Three answered "100 percent" and one answered that he had not completed the test.

When all of the tests were over and the location of the pipes was revealed, none of the dowsers had passed the test. Dr. Borga had placed his markers carefully, but the nearest was a full 8 feet from the water pipe. Borga said "We are lost"; but within two minutes he started blaming his failure on many things such as sunspots and geomagnetic variables. Two of the dowsers had "found" natural water before the test started, but disagreed with each other about where it was, as well as with the ones who found no natural water.

New qualification rules
In April 2007, the JREF made several changes to the testing procedure in an effort to streamline the process and refocus it to target high-profile and professional paranormalists. The foundation now requires a demonstrated media profile as well as the support from some member of the academic community before it will discuss the challenge with claimants. The foundation has also stated that these qualifications can be essentially met by anyone who can win any of the smaller and more regional skeptics prize challenges.

Randi and his associates have stated two primary reasons for the change:

In the opinion of the JREF, the vast majority of the applicants for the existing challenge appeared to be either mentally ill or unable to demonstrate their powers even to their own satisfaction. Many were unable to successfully fill out the application forms or coherently and consistently describe their alleged abilities. The foundation has stated that treating these applications seriously has both required an immense amount of time as well as doing a disservice to the applicants.
The true intent of the challenge has always been to aggressively pursue the most prominent paranormalists and force them to subject their claims to scientific scrutiny in a controlled setting. Randi said that this mission had been sidetracked by the complicated and costly application process, and the foundation wished to refocus its promotional and rhetorical approach to aggressively pursue top psychics in the media, making it difficult for them to be evasive or provide an adequate reason for not accepting the challenge.

Discontinuation and resumption
On January 4, 2008 it was announced that the prize would be discontinued on March 6, 2010 in order to free the money for other uses. In the meantime, claimants are welcome to vie for it. One of the reasons offered for its discontinuation is the unwillingness of higher profile claimants to apply.

However, at The Amaz!ng Meeting 7, it was announced that the $1 Million Challenge prize would not expire in 2010. This was also confirmed in the July/August issue of Skeptical Inquirer, where Randi is additionally quoted as saying: "It was going to terminate... but now it will continue." The Foundation issued a formal update on its website on July 30, 2009 announcing the Challenge's continuation, and stated more information would be provided at a later date on any possible changes to the requirements and procedures.

The Amaz!ng Meeting
Since 2003, the JREF has annually hosted The Amaz!ng Meeting (TAM), a gathering of scientists, skeptics, atheists. Perennial speakers include Christopher Hitchens, Penn & Teller, Phil Plait, Michael Shermer and Julia Sweeney.

Richard Dawkins and Joe Nickell appeared at the 2005 TAM 3.

TAM 4 in 2006 saw ACLU president Nadine Strossen, planetary scientist with the Voyager program Carolyn Porco, MythBusters Jamie Hyneman and Adam Savage, The Skeptic's Dictionary author Robert Todd Carroll and Nobel laureate Murray Gell-Mann.

TAM 5, held January 18, 2007 – January 21, 2007, included regulars Michael Shermer, Penn & Teller, Christopher Hitchens, Richard Wiseman, MythBuster Adam Savage, and Phil Plait. Also presenting were Eugenie Scott, Peter Sagal, Neil Gershenfeld, Nick Gillespie, John Rennie, Lori Lipman Brown and Margaret Downey. South Park creators Trey Parker and Matt Stone also made an appearance.

The 2008 meeting was held at The Flamingo in Las Vegas from June 19 to 22. Speakers included Neil DeGrasse Tyson (the keynote speaker), PZ Myers and Richard Saunders, all of whom debuted at this TAM, and regulars such as Phil Plait, Penn & Teller and the cast of the The Skeptics' Guide to the Universe podcast.

On February 2, 2009, JREF President Phil Plait announced that TAM 7 would take place from July 9 to 12 of that year. He also announced TAM London, the first ever TAM held outside the US, which took place on October 3-4 of 2009.

On July 12, 2009, Phil Plait announced that TAM 8 would take place from July 8 to 11, 2010 at the Southpoint Casino in Las Vegas.



Edited by Poid (11/19/09 01:39 PM)

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: LuSiD9]
    #11485576 -

Apply at the JREF foundation (do a search) after reading the rules. I am sure they would not consent to an illegal activity though. You would have to find a workaround.


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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11485604 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
I am sure they would not consent to an illegal activity though.



I know, that's the fuckin problem...


--------------------
Nothing is true, everything is permissible.

Our laws make law impossible; our liberties destroy all freedom; our property is organized robbery; our morality an impudent hypocrisy; our wisdom is administered by inexperienced or mal-experienced dupes; our power wielded by cowards and weaklings; and our honour false in all its points. I am an enemy of the existing order for good reasons.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11485614 -

I also will have to dissagree with your statement, poid.

First off, we know senses, other than the 5 humans have, to exist. An example will be how many animals can sense electromagnetic fields. What is to say that other senses exist, or may develop, that we are not aware of now, that would allow telepathy?

Poid said:
A creature is able to perceive because of its functioning brain, and the telepathy theory asserts that one individual creature can perceive the perceptions (e.g.-thoughts) of another individual creature; since perception is a function of the brain, in order for two creatures to literally perceive each others' perceptions, their physical brain would have to merge.



What if perception is not a physical process but a mental one- not of the brain, but the mind? Would it not be possible for some connection to exist between them, as it would no longer be necessary for two physical objects to merge?

Perhaps that would be taking it into the realm of metaphysics.. :shrug:


I'm undecided whether telepathy exists or not, that is not my point in argueing- but rather with the certainty that you make this claim. You may state a decent case that most people who claim to be telepathic are simply high in emotional intelligence, but you do nothing to completely disprove the possibility of telepathy.


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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11485664 -

shivas.wisdom said:
I also will have to dissagree with your statement, poid.

First off, we know senses, other than the 5 humans have, to exist. An example will be how many animals can sense electromagnetic fields.


Obviously humans are not able to perceive everything that exists, like the infrared spectrum for example.



shivas.wisdom said:
What is to say that other senses exist, or may develop, that we are not aware of now...


Humans have existed for a pretty long time, and so far, we are only aware of the five senses.

You also have to consider how science and technology has been rapidly expanding.



shivas.wisdom said:
that would allow telepathy?


Not necessarily.



shivas.wisdom said:
What if perception is not a physical process but a mental one- not of the brain, but the mind?


You have to prove that the mind exists after death.



shivas.wisdom said:
Would it not be possible for some connection to exist between them, as it would no longer be necessary for two physical objects to merge?


Almost anything is possible; for purposes of debate, you have to bring evidence, not wishful thinking to the table.



shivas.wisdom said:
I'm undecided whether telepathy exists or not, that is not my point in argueing- but rather with the certainty that you make this claim. You may state a decent case that most people who claim to be telepathic are simply high in emotional intelligence, but you do nothing to completely disprove the possibility of telepathy.


I already did, and you have yet to successfully debunk my points.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11485890 -

Quote:
it is impossible for one organism with its own brain to be able to perceive any of the perceptions experienced by any other organism



This seems to be your only reason for proving telepathy is a physical impossibility.

But why are you so certain that we perceive with our brains- where is your reasoning for this?
Do you believe thought/perception is made of physical matter, or a different substance?

Poid said:
Quote:
What if perception is not a physical process but a mental one- not of the brain, but the mind?



You have to prove that the mind exists after death.



Why is it necessary for the mind to be deathless for it to have the ability to perceive during life? Do dead bodies need the ability to perceive too, according to you?

Poid said:
I already did, and you have yet to successfully debunk my points.


If so, I encourage you to publish your proofs. I'm sure the scientific community would appreciate a bullet proof debunking of telepathy.

Or perhaps, despite the rationality of your thought process (and I admit, it is good- if we perceive with our brains then, as it stands now, I would agree with you) the conclusion you draw- namely, that telepathy is impossible- is over stepping the actual conclusions: that two physical objects (ie two brains) cannot exist in the same state, while still remaining separate. Which is really nothing new.


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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11486106 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:
it is impossible for one organism with its own brain to be able to perceive any of the perceptions experienced by any other organism



This seems to be your only reason for proving telepathy is a physical impossibility.


There are probably more reasons, but that's reason enough; Occam's Razor



shivas.wisdom said:
But why are you so certain that we perceive with our brains- where is your reasoning for this?


I've been to a few funerals, seen videos of people getting their brains blown out by a gun, and have researched the history of the guillotine.



shivas.wisdom said:
Do you believe thought/perception is made of physical matter, or a different substance?


It's not a tangible substance, but it's a phenomenon that is generated by a tangible substance; this is sort of like how heaters (which are made of tangible substances) generate heat (a phenomenon that is not made of any sort of substance).




shivas.wisdom said:
Poid said:
Quote:
What if perception is not a physical process but a mental one- not of the brain, but the mind?



You have to prove that the mind exists after death.



Why is it necessary for the mind to be deathless for it to have the ability to perceive during life?


What the fuck are you talking about? :wtf:



shivas.wisdom said:
Do dead bodies need the ability to perceive too, according to you?


Fuck no, not according to me; what in the hell gave you the idea that I would believe such nonsense? :what:




shivas.wisdom said:
I'm sure the scientific community would appreciate a bullet proof debunking of telepathy.


The scientific community considers telepathy to be pseudo-science, and so do I.



shivas.wisdom said:
Or perhaps, despite the rationality of your thought process (and I admit, it is good- if we perceive with our brains then, as it stands now, I would agree with you) the conclusion you draw- namely, that telepathy is impossible- is over stepping the actual conclusions: that two physical objects (ie two brains) cannot exist in the same state, while still remaining separate. Which is really nothing new.


Even if two humans' brain states were exactly identical, it would still mean that each of them are perceiving their own perceptions; the telepathy theory asserts that one individual can perceive the perceptions of another individual.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11486285 -

Poid said:
A creature is able to perceive because of its functioning brain, and the telepathy theory asserts that one individual creature can perceive the perceptions (e.g.-thoughts) of another individual creature; since perception is a function of the brain, in order for two creatures to literally perceive each others' perceptions, their physical brain would have to merge.



Define what you refer to with "merge".


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11486376 -

Brains would not need to physically merge IF
a.) Energy is produced by the brain
b.) This energy can be perceived by another brain

Since brains are dynamic and do produce energy, and we can observe this energy (e.g. EEG readings), this first point seems obvious.

As for perception of this energy... well, that's why it's referred to as the 6th sense. And no, there is no evidence that we can detect this energy.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11486398 -

Poid said:
shivas.wisdom said:
But why are you so certain that we perceive with our brains- where is your reasoning for this?


I've been to a few funerals, seen videos of people getting their brains blown out by a gun, and have researched the history of the guillotine.

How did this lead you to understand that we perceive our brain? I don't see the logical connections you must have made.



shivas.wisdom said:
Do you believe thought/perception is made of physical matter, or a different substance?


It's not a tangible substance, but it's a phenomenon that is generated by a tangible substance; this is sort of like how heaters (which are made of tangible substances) generate heat (a phenomenon that is not made of any sort of substance).

Well, heat is simply the movement of atoms and is therefore a physical property of these atoms.
But regardless of that example, once again what leads you to your certainty that thought is something 'generated by a tangible substance' (the brain I assume?) and that this phenomenom then shares the same properties as the substance that generated it?





shivas.wisdom said:
Poid said:
Quote:
What if perception is not a physical process but a mental one- not of the brain, but the mind?



You have to prove that the mind exists after death.



Why is it necessary for the mind to be deathless for it to have the ability to perceive during life?


What the fuck are you talking about? :wtf:

If you did not find it necessary for the mind to be deathless, why ask me to prove it exists after death?



shivas.wisdom said:
Do dead bodies need the ability to perceive too, according to you?


Fuck no, not according to me; what in the hell gave you the idea that I would believe such nonsense? :what:

See above.




shivas.wisdom said:
I'm sure the scientific community would appreciate a bullet proof debunking of telepathy.


The scientific community considers telepathy to be pseudo-science, and so do I.

But the scientific community does not claim to have completely disproved the possibility- just acknowledges skepticism of the concept.




shivas.wisdom said:
Or perhaps, despite the rationality of your thought process (and I admit, it is good- if we perceive with our brains then, as it stands now, I would agree with you) the conclusion you draw- namely, that telepathy is impossible- is over stepping the actual conclusions: that two physical objects (ie two brains) cannot exist in the same state, while still remaining separate. Which is really nothing new.


Even if two humans' brain states were exactly identical, it would still mean that each of them are perceiving their own perceptions; the telepathy theory asserts that one individual can perceive the perceptions of another individual.

What is impossible about perceiving others perceptions? It may be contained within the context of the telepaths mind, but does not necessarily mean that what we do perceive is not what the other person perceived.



What you posted does not disprove telepathy.
Break it down into simple logic, show me the premises and conclusions of your argument- as I can not find any premises within your op that would lead me to the conclusion that 'legitimate telepathic powers are physically impossible'.


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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11486428 -

I didn't say there were unknown senses but that is what telepathy is about and it is possible though I agree unlikely. It is entirely possible there are unknown senses that we are not aware of but our unconscious registers. As I said most people consider telepathy to be communication without the five known senses you mentioned, that is the majority definition and if not the dictionary definition the dictionary is outdated IMO, certaintly brains communicating without the use of the five know sense would be classed "paranormal".

If I can scrap your original definition and propose a new definition as "Telepathy is any form of communication without the use of the senses, sight, hearing, taste, smell and touch." can you then prove this is physically impossible?


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Kickle]
    #11486658 -

fireworks_god said:
Poid said:
A creature is able to perceive because of its functioning brain, and the telepathy theory asserts that one individual creature can perceive the perceptions (e.g.-thoughts) of another individual creature; since perception is a function of the brain, in order for two creatures to literally perceive each others' perceptions, their physical brain would have to merge.



Define what you refer to with "merge".


They would literally have to physically become one; obviously, if this were to happen, both of the creatures would die as a result.



Kickle said:
As for perception of this energy... well, that's why it's referred to as the 6th sense. And no, there is no evidence that we can detect this energy.


No matter what, an organism can only perceive its own perceptions.

/of.



shivas.wisdom said:
How did this lead you to understand that we perceive our brain? I don't see the logical connections you must have made.



After the brain dies, the creature is no longer alive; the only way we can tell if something is conscious is by observing its behavior, and dead things do not even exhibit behavior for us to observe. :lol:



shivas.wisdom said:
Well, heat is simply the movement of atoms and is therefore a physical property of these atoms.


No, heat is not "simply the movement of atoms", nor is it a "physical property of these atoms" because heat can exist where atoms aren't present.


shivas.wisdom said:
But regardless of that example, once again what leads you to your certainty that thought is something 'generated by a tangible substance' (the brain I assume?)


Can rocks think? No, they cannot.

Obviously, only living organisms can think.


shivas.wisdom said:
...and that this phenomenom then shares the same properties as the substance that generated it?


I never said that whatever capabilities that the brain possesses necessarily shares the exact same properties of the said brain.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (11/19/09 04:52 PM)

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11486680 -

Grapefruit said:
If I can scrap your original definition and propose a new definition as "Telepathy is any form of communication without the use of the senses, sight, hearing, taste, smell and touch." can you then prove this is physically impossible?


That is an extremely vague premise, and I can only disprove it if you can describe what this mysterious "sixth sense" is.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11486712 -

It's not vague at all I claimed no mystery sixth sense.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11486729 -

Nor did you describe how the mechanism of your personal definition of telepathy operates.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11486742 -

Why do I have to? I have no idea how telepathy would work and nor does anyone else. My point is it is not impossible.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11486753 -

Grapefruit said:
"Telepathy is any form of communication without the use of the senses, sight, hearing, taste, smell and touch."


This statement in no way proves that telepathy is necessarily not impossible. At all. :nonono:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11486798 -

Just because we have no idea by what mechanism it would operate doesn't mean there is no possible way it could operate. This akin to saying that because somebody has no idea how things could fall down to earth it is not possible that they do (assuming this person is a total outsider to this earth and has never observed the phenomena).


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Edited by Grapefruit (11/19/09 04:35 PM)

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11486807 -

Grapefruit said:
Just because we have no idea by what mechanism it would operate doesn't mean there is no possible way it could operate.


I'm not saying this, though, all I'm asking for is a statement that proves that it is necessarily not impossible. And you haven't given it to me.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11486830 -

Poid said:
They would literally have to physically become one obviously, if this were to happen, both of the creatures would die as a result.



Do you have to physically merge with a bird in order to perceive it flying by?
Now, I am near completely indifferent to the topic of telepathy, but it isn't hard to notice a glitch in your argument, and that is the presumption that there is no possibility of some manner of communication between two brains, taking place through sensory devices yet undiscovered, that doesn't rely on a physical merging to take place.

You certainly haven't demonstrated through such a line of thinking that telepathy is physically impossible. Maybe you should edit the title of this thread. :nono:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11486831 -

Quote:
    Quote:
    Kickle said:
    As for perception of this energy... well, that's why it's referred to as the 6th sense. And no, there is no evidence that we can detect this energy.

No matter what, an organism can only perceive its own perceptions.

/of.



/of?

Why do you claim this? If energy which is perceived EXTERNALLY by the brain contains a certain energetic response WITHIN the brain, and this INTERNAL response generates energy which then is displaced EXTERNALLY, why exactly is it impossible for this produced energy to be perceived?

We do this all the time with fMRIs, EEGs, PET scans, etc.
If we can't observe what a person is perceiving, how exactly do we know what areas of the brain are associated with smell? Lucky guess?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11486839 -

Quote:
Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible



You are saying that, this is what I am arguing against.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11486878 -

Grapefruit said:
Why do I have to? I have no idea how telepathy would work and nor does anyone else. My point is it is not impossible.



Exactly.

I am not in here trying to prove that telepathy is possible, merely to prove that you have not proven it impossible.


Your reasoning depends on the assumption that perception/thought originate from the physical brain. Unless you can prove that is true (and not from an immaterial mind) beyond a doubt, your conclusion is meaningless and based on a false assumption.
Seeing that a living body perceives, while a dead or inanimate one doesn't, does not connect perception to a living brain, but to living bodies- which also have an immaterial mind.

Show me how you come to this conclusion.


--------------------

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Kickle]
    #11486892 -

fireworks_god said:
Poid said:
They would literally have to physically become one obviously, if this were to happen, both of the creatures would die as a result.



Do you have to physically merge with a bird in order to perceive it flying by?


What does that have to do with anything? My brain produced the perception of the bird, and the bird itself has its own brain that produces its own perceptions.



fireworks_god said:
Now, I am near completely indifferent to the topic of telepathy, but it isn't hard to notice a glitch in your argument, and that is the presumption that there is no possibility of some manner of communication between two brains, taking place through sensory devices yet undiscovered, that doesn't rely on a physical merging to take place.


The telepathy theory asserts that one creature can perceive the perceptions of another creature; considering that perception is produced by a living brain, how is it hard to understand that telepathy is physically impossible?



Quote:
Kickle said:
If energy which is perceived EXTERNALLY by the brain...


What exactly do you mean by this? Can you give an example?



Kickle said:
...contains a certain energetic response WITHIN the brain, and this INTERNAL response generates energy which then is displaced EXTERNALLY...


What do you mean by "displaced EXTERNALLY"?



Kickle said:
...why exactly is it impossible for this produced energy to be perceived?


I'm not quite sure exactly what energy you're talking about, but whatever a creature perceives is its own perception.



Kickle said:
We do this all the time with fMRIs, EEGs, PET scans, etc.
If we can't observe what a person is perceiving, how exactly do we know what areas of the brain are associated with smell? Lucky guess?


We know via the use of modern technologies such as the ones you mentioned.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11486894 -

Even if it is contained solely within the brain, it isn't an impossibility.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11486902 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Show me how you come to this conclusion.


Do MRI machines capture any information from dead brains? :strokebeard:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487000 -

It could be an impossibility, true, i take that back it's not what I meant but this is not necessarily the case and you haven't proved it is impossible as you just admitted .


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11487035 -

Grapefruit said:
...you haven't proved it is impossible as you just admitted .


But I have proved this, over and over throughout this thread.


A creature has its own body, its own organs, and its own perceptions; the telepathy theory asserts that one organism can somehow perceive another organism's perceptions. Considering that perception is produced by the brain, it makes absolutely no sense that one organism can perceive another organism's thoughts.

Can you feel my heart beating? :heartpump:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487051 -

Quote:
Kickle said:
    If energy which is perceived EXTERNALLY by the brain...

What exactly do you mean by this? Can you give an example?




I feel heat rising from my stove. This heat is not contained within my brain, it is energy external to my brain which I perceive.

Quote:
    Quote:
    Kickle said:
    ...contains a certain energetic response WITHIN the brain, and this INTERNAL response generates energy which then is displaced EXTERNALLY...


What do you mean by "displaced EXTERNALLY"?



I mean that just as the heat from the stove, my brain in action is producing energy which, once more exists in the external world. We detect this using the machines I mentioned earlier.

Quote:
    Quote:
    Kickle said:
    ...why exactly is it impossible for this produced energy to be perceived?

I'm not quite sure exactly what energy you're talking about,



I'm talking about the energy that is emitted by our brain upon activation. We sense something, we react, we emit energy. It needn't even be motor movement, our brain itself emits energy.

Quote:
but whatever a creature perceives is its own perception.



Are you claiming that no external world exists? Do we not perceive something outside of ourselves? I see a tree, therefore you cannot see the tree, because it is MY perception alone? Am I misunderstanding you here?

Quote:
We know via the use of modern technologies such as the ones you mentioned.



Right, so something objective exists which informs us of what another is perceiving. If the brain were capable of detecting this energy, not necessarily in the same way as a machine does it, it would also make sense for it to be able to make sense of these external stimuli. A system which detects energy (every sense perception we or any other animal has) is only useful because it provides usable information. Detecting the energy of another would be worthless if it was not also organized and interpreted by the brain. Detecting another humans perceptions would be most easily organized by giving you the same perceptions as the other, because the perceptual system between both individuals is the same. It wouldn't make sense to turn a smell into a sound simply because both individuals can smell. Then, from there, what is done with the perception would be dependent upon consciousness.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Kickle]
    #11487064 -

Kickle said:
...our brain itself emits energy.


Energy, yes. Thoughts, no.

And even if it did emit thoughts, any creature who perceived those thoughts would have done so via its own perception.



Kickle said:
Am I misunderstanding you here?


You are.



Kickle said:
Detecting another humans perceptions would be most easily organized by giving you the same perceptions as the other, because the perceptual system between both individuals is the same.


How does this change the fact that each human is perceiving their own perceptions? :confused:



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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487085 -

You are assuming that this is a materialistic existence, when this is not necessarily the case.

What about idealism?
What about dualism?
What about pluralism?


--------------------

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487090 -

So are thoughts not energy?
I thought you were the materialist of the bunch.

If thoughts produce energy (via the brain) then this energy output has the potential to be detected, just as any other energy output.
It's really simple Poid, I don't know what exactly you're refuting about this.

If I am misunderstanding, you need to make attempts at clarifying.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487111 -

Poid said:
And even if it did emit thoughts, any creature who perceived those thoughts would have done so via its own perception.



How else do you expect it to perceive something? Telepathy is being in another mind, with the context and thoughts of your mind.


--------------------

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Kickle]
    #11487124 -

shivas.wisdom said:
What about idealism?
What about dualism?
What about pluralism?


If you have something to say about those things, then why don't you say it? :lol:



Kickle said:
So are thoughts not energy?


Not the same energy that is detected by MRI machines and such.



Kickle said:
I thought you were the materialist of the bunch.


Yeah, I'm pretty damn materialistic. :coaster:



Kickle said:
If thoughts produce energy (via the brain) then this energy output has the potential to be detected, just as any other energy output.


I'm not so sure that thoughts produce energy, rather, I would think that they are a product of an "energetic system", for lack of a better term.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487125 -

I could make up an absolute ton of ways that communication between minds without the senses could operate which you cannot prove wrong.

1. There is an astral plane and such a thing as mind which is seperate to the brain but communicates with it and other minds on the spiritual plane.

2. Brains can communicate by sending information over Shupenbertokal waves that bypass physical barriers sending information into other brains unconscious.

3. Brains can communicate through special Glopal birds that take in information by sensing it in vocal patterns that whisper Bullshitengal sound inaudible to the conscious mind and undetectable to man made machines that conveys perceptions of other humans by maniupulating frequencies that make perceptions move into the same patterns as others perceptions of other humans.

See where I'm going with this...?

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11487137 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Poid said:
And even if it did emit thoughts, any creature who perceived those thoughts would have done so via its own perception.



Telepathy is being in another mind...


Just like demon possession. :satansmoking:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487170 -

People can also percieve others perceptions (or what seems very close to unless there is some misunderstanding) through normal methods of communication, no?


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487172 -

Quote:
Not the same energy that is detected by MRI machines and such.



Source?
What exactly is the energy we detect during problem solving, then?

Holding a materialist stance for perception, I can't imagine you're going to win arguing against a material base for thought. Unless we don't perceive thought, in which case this whole thread was a waste of time when arguing that anothers thoughts cannot be perceived, because it would then out of necessity have to operate on a different system anyways!


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11487181 -

Grapefruit said:
I could make up an absolute ton of ways that communication between minds without the senses could operate which you cannot prove wrong.

1. There is an astral plane...


Prove it.



Grapefruit said:
...and such a thing as mind which is seperate to the brain but communicates with it and other minds on the spiritual plane.


What the fuck is the "spiritual plane"? :what:



Grapefruit said:
2. Brains can communicate by sending information over Shupenbertokal waves...


:lol:, WTF are "Shupenbertokal waves"?



Grapefruit said:
...that bypass physical barriers sending information into other brains unconscious.


I love how you have absolutely no proof for this theory. :heartpump:



Grapefruit said:
3. Brains can communicate through special Glopal birds...


WTF are "Glopal birds"? :wtf:



Grapefruit said:
...that take in information by sensing it in vocal patterns that whisper Bullshitengal sound...


What is "Bullshitengal sound"? :holyshit:


Grapefruit said:
...inaudible to the conscious mind and undetectable to man made machines that conveys perceptions of other humans by maniupulating frequencies that make perceptions move into the same patterns as others perceptions of other humans.

See where I'm going with this...?


Sort of, but I don't see how this is going to prove that each animal can only perceive its own perceptions.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (04/15/12 05:27 PM)

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487189 -

I'm not trying to prove any of that bullshit I just made up. Just saying you can't disprove it.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11487197 -

shivas.wisdom said:
You are assuming that this is a materialistic existence, when this is not necessarily the case.

What about idealism?
What about dualism?
What about pluralism?



I'm sorry, I assumed you knew these philosophies.

A materialistic worldview implies everything is physical matter.
An idealistic worldview implies everything is mind (mental thought).
A dualistic worldview implies some stuff is matter, other stuff is mind.
A pluralistic worldview implies a plurality of substances that make up the universe.


As you can see, only with materialism can it be assumed that perception arises from the physical brain. For the other three (and these three do not represent the only conflicting philosophies) this is not necessarily the case- and you have not proven that perception is generated by the brain.


--------------------

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Kickle]
    #11487208 -

Grapefruit said:
People can also percieve others perceptions (or what seems very close to unless there is some misunderstanding) through normal methods of communication, no?


No.

Can you feel my heart beating? :heartpump:



Kickle said:
Quote:
Not the same energy that is detected by MRI machines and such.



Source?
What exactly is the energy we detect during problem solving, then?


I'm not at all saying that the energy that is detectable by modern technology is not in any way connected with thoughts; obviously, since there is no technology available today that can read peoples' minds, whatever modern technology can detect is necessarily something other than thoughts.



Kickle said:
Holding a materialist stance for perception, I can't imagine you're going to win arguing against a material base for thought.


Neither can I, and that's not what I'm arguing.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11487227 -

shivas.wisdom said:
...and you have not proven that perception is generated by the brain.


I don't need to prove it--science has already done that for me, and I'm not going to search around for a whole bunch of scientific articles that explain this in detail because you can do that on your own.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487247 -

Poid said:
shivas.wisdom said:
...and you have not proven that perception is generated by the brain.


I don't need to prove it--science has already done that for me, and I'm not going to search around for a whole bunch of scientific articles that explain this in detail because you can do that on your own.



And if you believe this, than there is no further point in discussing other than to point out that this is not proven. At all.


--------------------

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11487257 -

You're the one who is trying to disprove modern scientific thought; if you give up this easily, then maybe you're wrong. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487264 -

Then what are you arguing?
If thoughts are energy, they have the potential to be detected, just as any other source of energy.
If a human brain detected this energy, it would have a way of interpreting this energy, as all external energy that is detected by the brain does. The only way for this to occur, is to use what the brain already has. If the brain already has all the neural wiring for thought, why would it not just interpret outside thought using that very same wiring? External thought energy being interpreted as external thought.

It's entirely possible, but we have no empirical evidence for it.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487269 -

Just because I can't feel yor heart beating doesn't mean I can't percieve some of your perceptions. Like your perceptions. For instance if somebody made a statement and then thoroughly explained their position to me I would be able to percieve that in a very similar way and it is possible this would be the exact same way.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Kickle]
    #11487288 -

Kickle said:
If thoughts are energy, they have the potential to be detected, just as any other source of energy.


If a human somehow detects another person's thoughts, it would still be that human's own perception.



Kickle said:
If a human brain detected this energy, it would have a way of interpreting this energy, as all external energy that is detected by the brain does. The only way for this to occur, is to use what the brain already has. If the brain already has all the neural wiring for thought, why would it not just interpret outside thought using that very same wiring? External thought energy being interpreted as external thought.


If a human somehow detects another person's thoughts, it would still be that human's own perception.

Therefore, telepathy is impossible. :craven:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11487301 -

Grapefruit said:
Just because I can't feel yor heart beating doesn't mean I can't percieve some of your perceptions.


You can only perceive your own perceptions; when you're fucking a girl, and you both climax together, whose orgasm do you feel? :strokebeard:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487326 -

Poid said:
You're the one who is trying to disprove modern scientific thought; if you give up this easily, then maybe you're wrong. :shrug:



Oh really? if materialism has been proven and verified beyond a doubt I would be very interested in reading about this.
So instead of me wasting time trying to disprove (or trying to show you it is not necessarily true) what is already proven true, why don't you link me to a scientific, peer-reviewed article or study verifying your claims. I would be most appreciative, as this knowledge seems to have avoided me thus far.


--------------------

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487344 -

Physical perceptions, I agree. Conceptual perceptions you are simply wrong as I said:

Quote:
For instance if somebody made a statement and then thoroughly explained their position to me I would be able to percieve that in a very similar way and it is possible this would be the exact same way.



That's similar and possibly exactly. Depeding on the concept and the depth of explanation and a luck factor.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11487374 -

Such as with mathematical concepts.


--------------------

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487386 -

Poid said:
If a human somehow detects another person's thoughts, it would still be that human's own perception.

Therefore, telepathy is impossible. :craven:



Say what?
That's the weirdest definition of telepathy I have ever heard.

If a human perceives another's thoughts, they are not using telepathy, they are.... ???
For all intents and purposes, telepathy as is generally understood, not some Poidified version, is theoretically possible.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11487392 -

Perfect example, thankyou.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Kickle]
    #11487454 -

Kickle said:
Poid said:
If a human somehow detects another person's thoughts, it would still be that human's own perception.

Therefore, telepathy is impossible. :craven:



Say what?
That's the weirdest definition of telepathy I have ever heard.

If a human perceives another's thoughts, they are not using telepathy, they are.... ???
For all intents and purposes, telepathy as is generally understood, not some Poidified version, is theoretically possible.



:thumbup:

You don't need to be something to perceive it, I think that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

Why should percieving a perception necessitate being that same perception? It only necessitates emulation.  Your point simply makes no sense.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11487514 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Poid said:
You're the one who is trying to disprove modern scientific thought; if you give up this easily, then maybe you're wrong. :shrug:



Oh really? if materialism has been proven and verified beyond a doubt I would be very interested in reading about this.
So instead of me wasting time trying to disprove (or trying to show you it is not necessarily true) what is already proven true, why don't you link me to a scientific, peer-reviewed article or study verifying your claims. I would be most appreciative, as this knowledge seems to have avoided me thus far.


I don't think anything can be known for certain, but so far, modern science contends pretty much the same thing that I'm contending here. :shrug:



Kickle said:
Poid said:
If a human somehow detects another person's thoughts, it would still be that human's own perception.

Therefore, telepathy is impossible. :craven:



Say what?
That's the weirdest definition of telepathy I have ever heard.


I already quoted Wikipedia's article on telepathy, and what I typed there in no way contradicts it. :shrug:



Kickle said:
If a human perceives another's thoughts, they are not using telepathy, they are.... ???
For all intents and purposes, telepathy as is generally understood, not some Poidified version, is theoretically possible.


Did you read the Wikipedia article?



Grapefruit said:
Kickle said:
Poid said:
If a human somehow detects another person's thoughts, it would still be that human's own perception.

Therefore, telepathy is impossible. :craven:



Say what?
That's the weirdest definition of telepathy I have ever heard.

If a human perceives another's thoughts, they are not using telepathy, they are.... ???
For all intents and purposes, telepathy as is generally understood, not some Poidified version, is theoretically possible.



:thumbup:

You don't need to be something to perceive it, I think that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.


I'd agree that's pretty stupid, and that's not what I'm asserting. In order to perceive another organism's perceptions, you need to be that organism; this is different from needing to be something in order to perceive that said something.



Grapefruit said:
Why should percieving a perception necessitate being that same perception?


It only necessitates that you are literally perceiving a perception.



Grapefruit said:
It only necessitates emulation.  Your point simply makes no sense.


I've already been over this point; even if the brain states of two different humans are exactly identical, it would still be each human's individual perception.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487519 -

There are entities active here on Earth that do have legitimate telepathic abilities. I know this for a fact because I directly experienced it. You'll see these entities sometime in the next decade. You can be sure of that. Until then, that's all I have to say about this subject.
                                                                                      :voila:


--------------------
Turn off your mind, relax and floatdown stream. It is not dying. Lay down all thought, surrender to the void. It is shining.

:darkside: Pink Floyd :darkside:

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: NlightNd1]
    #11487533 -

NlightNd1 said:
There are entities active here on Earth that do have legitimate telepathic abilities.


Proof?



NlightNd1 said:
I know this for a fact because I directly experienced it.


When I was on 'shrooms once, I directly experienced my high school building morphing into different shapes and sizes.



NlightNd1 said:
You'll see these entities sometime in the next decade. You can be sure of that. Until then, that's all I have to say about this subject.
                                                                                      :voila:


Alright then. :thumbup:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487539 -

Quote:
I've already been over this point; even if the brain states of two different humans are exactly identical, it would still be each human's individual perception.



So what?


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11487553 -

So it is impossible for any organism to literally perceive the perceptions of any other organism; must we keep going in circles? :nut:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: NlightNd1]
    #11487558 -

So you are not at all questioning the possibility of communication via thoughts, as telepathy is generally thought of as? You're simply bantering about a definition?

Sorry, I thought this thread was about disproving telepathy.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487561 -

Why the hell does perceiving a perception mean you have to be the perception? Why can't it just be your perception of that perception?


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Kickle]
    #11487581 -

Kickle said:
So you are not at all questioning the possibility of communication via thoughts, as telepathy is generally thought of as? You're simply bantering about a definition?

Sorry, I thought this thread was about disproving telepathy.



Kickle said:
So you are not at all questioning the possibility of communication via thoughts, as telepathy is generally thought of as? You're simply bantering about a definition?

Sorry, I thought this thread was about disproving telepathy.



/endthread


--------------------

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11487596 -

Quote:
So you are not at all questioning the possibility of communication via thoughts, as telepathy is generally thought of as? You're simply bantering about a definition?

Sorry, I thought this thread was about disproving telepathy.



Funny thing is Poid's not even right by his own standards.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11487597 -

Kickle said:
So you are not at all questioning the possibility of communication via thoughts, as telepathy is generally thought of as?


Thoughts are perceived, no? Why is it that anybody believes that they can perceive thoughts, but not anything else? Can you feel my emotions? Can you feel the pain of my healing wrist? Can you taste what I'm eating? :strokebeard:

Telepathy is generally thought of as some sort of power which allows a human being to perceive other peoples' thoughts as they are perceiving them, and I've been explaining over and over throughout this thread that perceiving another organism's perceptions is absolutely impossible.



Grapefruit said:
Why the hell does perceiving a perception mean you have to be the perception? Why can't it just be your perception of that perception?


That's what it is, and that's not what telepathy is generally thought of as.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11487598 -

Grapefruit said:
Quote:
So you are not at all questioning the possibility of communication via thoughts, as telepathy is generally thought of as? You're simply bantering about a definition?

Sorry, I thought this thread was about disproving telepathy.



Funny thing is Poid's not even right by his own standards.



How do you mean? :confused:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487604 -

Wait so give me your definition again? I thought you defined it "The ability to percieve others perceptions."?


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11487619 -

Quote:
perceive the perceptions (e.g.- the thoughts) of other individual organisms



Yup.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487624 -

Quote:
Thoughts are perceived, no? Why is it that anybody believes that they can perceive thoughts, but not anything else? Can you feel my emotions? Can you feel the pain of my healing wrist? Can you taste what I'm eating? :strokebeard:



People do believe you can perceive other sensations.
Yes, yes, and yes.
Telepathy is a specific kind.
Empathy would be another -- the perception of anothers emotions.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Kickle]
    #11487656 -

Grapefruit said:
Wait so give me your definition again?


From Telepathy - Wikipedia:
Quote:
Telepathy (Greek ôçëå, tele meaning "distant" and ðÜèåéá, patheia meaning "to be affected by",) is supposed to be the transfer of information on thoughts or feelings between individuals by means other than the five senses (See Psi). The term was coined in 1882 by the classical scholar Fredric W. H. Myers, a founder of the Society for Psychical Research, specifically to replace the earlier expression thought-transference. A person who is able to make use of telepathy is said to be able to read the thoughts and stored information in the brain of others. Telepathy, along with psychokinesis forms the main branches of parapsychological research, and many studies seeking to detect, understand, utilize telepathy have been done within the field.
There is no accepted mechanism by which telepathy can work, and there is no definition which unambiguously distinguishes it from a number of other related concepts such as clairvoyance, so the concept is not accepted by the scientific community
Telepathy is a common theme in modern fiction and science fiction, with many superheroes and supervillains having telepathic abilities. Such abilities include sensing the thoughts of others.





Kickle said:
Quote:
Thoughts are perceived, no? Why is it that anybody believes that they can perceive thoughts, but not anything else? Can you feel my emotions? Can you feel the pain of my healing wrist? Can you taste what I'm eating? :strokebeard:



People do believe you can perceive other sensations.
Yes, yes, and yes.
Telepathy is a specific kind.
Empathy would be another -- the perception of anothers emotions.


This all ties in with emotional intelligence and the mirror neuron theory--those theories make more sense than the telepathy theory, which is, in my eyes anyways, extremely flawed.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (11/19/09 06:43 PM)

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487676 -

No ones definition is that you actual become the person whos thoughts you percieve just that you percieve their thoughts.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Edited by Grapefruit (11/19/09 06:20 PM)

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11487699 -

Quote:
This all ties in with emotional intelligence and the mirror neuron theory--those thoeries make more sense than the telepathy thoery, which is, in my eyes anyways, extremely flawed.




I'm using a similar concept for telepathy, though...
You express an emotion, I perceive it and through perceiving it the similar neurons in my own brain fire.
You think, I perceive it, and through perceiving it those similar neurons in my brain fire. Except since it is thought, it comes through as thought, not an emotion.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487728 -

Poid said:
Grapefruit said:
Why the hell does perceiving a perception mean you have to be the perception? Why can't it just be your perception of that perception?


That's what it is, and that's not what telepathy is generally thought of as.



Your definition was:


perceive the perceptions (e.g.- the thoughts) of other individual organisms

So I still want you to answer my above question.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487791 -

If you define telepathy as necessarily implying perceiving the exact same thought that another individual is thinking, then I'd agree that this is probably impossible because different brains imply dissimilar perceptions.  However, a more reasonable definition of telepathy is being able to transmit information from one brain to another.  I can reasonably conceive of my thinking of the equation 2 + 2 = 4 and sending this to another individual; my thought about that equation and the other individual's thought about the received equation might not be necessarily identical but the information is nonetheless the same.

At any rate proof of the impossibility of telepathy is nonexistent.  Persuasive evidence might be found, certainly, but it's entirely possible that science just hasn't yet discovered the appropriate mechanism by which such a transfer of information as I've outlined could take place.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: deCypher]
    #11487889 -

Kickle said:
Quote:
This all ties in with emotional intelligence and the mirror neuron theory--those thoeries make more sense than the telepathy thoery, which is, in my eyes anyways, extremely flawed.




I'm using a similar concept for telepathy, though...
You express an emotion, I perceive it and through perceiving it the similar neurons in my own brain fire.
You think, I perceive it, and through perceiving it those similar neurons in my brain fire. Except since it is thought, it comes through as thought, not an emotion.


But it's still your perception. :egyptian:



Grapefruit said:
Poid said:
Grapefruit said:
Why the hell does perceiving a perception mean you have to be the perception? Why can't it just be your perception of that perception?


That's what it is, and that's not what telepathy is generally thought of as.



Your definition was:


perceive the perceptions (e.g.- the thoughts) of other individual organisms

So I still want you to answer my above question.


I just quoted Wikipedia's article on telepathy, and what I said there is only a part of its definition.



deCypher said:
If you define telepathy as necessarily implying perceiving the exact same thought that another individual is thinking, then I'd agree that this is probably impossible because different brains imply dissimilar perceptions.


Yes. :thumbup:



deCypher said:
However, a more reasonable definition of telepathy is being able to transmit information from one brain to another.


So, by posting on the Shroomery, are we telepathically communicating with each other?



deCypher said:
I can reasonably conceive of my thinking of the equation 2 + 2 = 4 and sending this to another individual; my thought about that equation and the other individual's thought about the received equation might not be necessarily identical but the information is nonetheless the same.


And it would still nonetheless be each of you perceiving your own individual perceptions.



deCypher said:
At any rate proof of the impossibility of telepathy is nonexistent.  Persuasive evidence might be found, certainly, but it's entirely possible that science just hasn't yet discovered the appropriate mechanism by which such a transfer of information as I've outlined could take place.


If telepathy implies that one organism can literally perceive the perceptions of a different organism just as that organism is perceiving it (as Wikipedia apparently defines it), then it is physically impossible.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487979 -

Poid said:
deCypher said:
However, a more reasonable definition of telepathy is being able to transmit information from one brain to another.



So, by posting on the Shroomery, are we telepathically communicating with each other?



Obviously, I meant the transmission of information from one brain to another via means other than the 5 senses.

Poid said:
If telepathy implies that one organism can literally perceive the perceptions of a different organism just as that organism is perceiving it (as Wikipedia apparently defines it), then it is probably physically impossible.



Fixed.  It's entirely possible that different neural structures could produce identical perceptions, but it's rather unlikely.  We don't know enough about the interaction between the mind/brain to say anything for certain, so like I said there is no proof of your hypothesis.

Also Wikipedia supports my definition:

Quote:
A person who is able to make use of telepathy is said to be able to read the thoughts and stored information in the brain of others.



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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: deCypher]
    #11487992 -

Besides, Wikipedia isn't a good source anyway.  The Mirriam-Webster dictionary defines telepathy as "communication from one mind to another by extrasensory means" which implies the transfer of information.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: deCypher]
    #11487996 -

Quote:
If you define telepathy as necessarily implying perceiving the exact same thought that another individual is thinking, then I'd agree that this is probably impossible because different brains imply dissimilar perceptions.



Correct but poids definition never said the exact same. All it said, at it's core was a perception of a perception.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11488017 -

That's not to say percieving the exact same thing from a different frame of reference would be impossible either mind just it would still be a perception of someone elses perception so you could never know for sure.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: deCypher]
    #11488020 -

deCypher said:
Poid said:
deCypher said:
However, a more reasonable definition of telepathy is being able to transmit information from one brain to another.



So, by posting on the Shroomery, are we telepathically communicating with each other?



Obviously, I meant the transmission of information from one brain to another via means other than the 5 senses.


But this is an incomplete definition of the term 'telepathy', as defined by Wikipedia anyways.



deCypher said:
Fixed.  It's entirely possible that different neural structures could produce identical perceptions, but it's rather unlikely.  We don't know enough about the interaction between the mind/brain to say anything for certain, so like I said there is no proof of your hypothesis.


I admit that I may have jumped the gun a bit by claiming that it's definitely impossible, but I personally believe that its existence is about as likely as "God's". :shrug:



deCypher said:
Also Wikipedia supports my definition:

Quote:
A person who is able to make use of telepathy is said to be able to read the thoughts and stored information in the brain of others.




That's only part of Wikipedia's definition, though.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (06/06/11 02:51 AM)

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11488025 -

I don't think reading the thoughts of others (the other part of Wiki's definition) necessarily implies having the exact same thought others are having, though.  What if I could read the informational content of your thought?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: deCypher]
    #11488027 -

deCypher said:
Besides, Wikipedia isn't a good source anyway.  The Mirriam-Webster dictionary defines telepathy as "communication from one mind to another by extrasensory means" which implies the transfer of information.



Wikipedia provides a lot more information on the topic than online dictionaries do, though.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11488044 -

Wikipedia is not acceptable as an academic source.  :shrug:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: deCypher]
    #11488047 -

deCypher said:
I don't think reading the thoughts of others (the other part of Wiki's definition) necessarily implies having the exact same thought others are having, though.



I never implied that it did. :shrug:



deCypher said:
What if I could read the informational content of your thought?


Then you would be perceiving my perception of my own thoughts.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11488054 -

Wiki does not say the exact same perception must be obtained anyway but even if it did then the perception could be the same in terms of subjectivity just placed in a different context (another's brain) through emulation.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11488055 -

No, I would not be.  You could have a completely different perception of the equation "2+2=4" than me, but I could theoretically read the informational content of your thought and translate it into my own unique perception of that information.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: deCypher]
    #11488059 -

deCypher said:
Wikipedia is not acceptable as an academic source.  :shrug:


True, but the sources that are listed on the bottom of each article may be. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11488065 -

Then it might be better to use those sources to define telepathy rather than a generic blurb on Wikipedia that could have been written by anyone, no?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: deCypher]
    #11488073 -

deCypher said:
No, I would not be.  You could have a completely different perception of the equation "2+2=4" than me, but I could theoretically read the informational content of your thought and translate it into my own unique perception of that information.



In that case, how could you even know or prove that what you perceive is the informational content of my thought, and not just another one of your own thoughts?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11488075 -

I still don't get your definition Poid please define what you are arguing for without the use of wikipedia. Your own definition now. As simple as possible.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: deCypher]
    #11488077 -

deCypher said:
Then it might be better to use those sources to define telepathy rather than a generic blurb on Wikipedia that could have been written by anyone, no?


Yes, sir!  :japsmile:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11488093 -

Poid said:
deCypher said:
No, I would not be.  You could have a completely different perception of the equation "2+2=4" than me, but I could theoretically read the informational content of your thought and translate it into my own unique perception of that information.



In that case, how could you even know or prove that what you perceive is the informational content of my thought, and not just another one of your own thoughts?



How can I prove that the computer I see before me right now isn't just a visual hallucination generated by my own brain?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11488094 -

Grapefruit said:
I still don't get your definition Poid please define what you are arguing for without the use of wikipedia. Your own definition now. As simple as possible.


It appears that there are many definitions for the term 'telepathy', and this fact is even mentioned in the Wikipedia article that I quoted; I am only arguing that it is physically impossible to literally perceive another creature's perception exactly as the said creature is perceiving them.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: deCypher]
    #11488097 -

deCypher said:
Poid said:
deCypher said:
No, I would not be.  You could have a completely different perception of the equation "2+2=4" than me, but I could theoretically read the informational content of your thought and translate it into my own unique perception of that information.



In that case, how could you even know or prove that what you perceive is the informational content of my thought, and not just another one of your own thoughts?



How can I prove that the computer I see before me right now isn't just a visual hallucination generated by my own brain?


Videotape it. :smirk:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11488105 -

And show my sensory hallucination of a video tape to my sensory hallucination of friends?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11488107 -

Quote:
the perception could be the same in terms of subjectivity just placed in a different context (another's brain) through emulation.



Why can't I perceive exactly the same thing but from my point of awareness (constructed withing my brain)?


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: deCypher]
    #11488120 -

There is definetely no way of knowing you are percieving the right thing but I didn't think we were debating that. Just whether it is possible.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11488126 -

deCypher said:
And show my sensory hallucination of a video tape to my sensory hallucination of friends?



:lol:, damn, I knew you were going to go there!

Really, there's no way to prove anything, right? :robblerobble:



Grapefruit said:
Quote:
the perception could be the same in terms of subjectivity just placed in a different context (another's brain) through emulation.



Why can't I perceive exactly the same thing but from my point of awareness (constructed withing my brain)?


You can, who the fuck said you couldn't? :confused:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11488148 -

Quote:
I am only arguing that it is physically impossible to literally perceive another creature's perception exactly as the said creature is perceiving them.



I mean so what are we debating here whether we can be somebody else? Whether you can have the same point of awareness as somebody else?


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11488154 -

Poid said:
Really, there's no way to prove anything, right?



Proofs certainly exist in mathematics.  Also perhaps one can prove that one exists a la Descartes.  Other than that, I think there's only going to be persuasive evidence and no solid proof.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11488157 -

That's basically what telepathy is, no? :justdontknow:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: deCypher]
    #11488162 -

deCypher said:
Other than that, I think there's only going to be persuasive evidence and no solid proof.


Yup. :thumbup:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11488165 -

Poid said:
That's basically what telepathy is, no? :justdontknow:



No!  It's the transfer of information without use of the 5 senses.  :crankey:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11488178 -

Having exactly the same point of awareness as somebody else....? Not at all. :confused: :cuckoo:


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11488188 -

deCypher said:
Poid said:
That's basically what telepathy is, no? :justdontknow:



No!  It's the transfer of information without use of the 5 senses.  :crankey:



:objection:



Grapefruit said:
Having exactly the same point of awareness as somebody else....? Not at all. :confused: :cuckoo:


Some people define it that way. :shrug:

Again, there are various, and even conflicting definitions for the term 'telepathy'. :smirk:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11488197 -

Mirriam-Webster only gives one, and that definition does not support the idea of having the same point of awareness as somebody else.  :smirk:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: deCypher]
    #11488205 -

There are a shit load of books on the topic; Mirriam-Webster doesn't provide all the different points of view, for the sake of consistency. :smirk:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11488211 -

What the hell are you talking about, nobody defines it that way, except maybe you. Telepathy defined as your brain changing to be exactly the same brain as someone else?

Hell why didn't you just name this thread. "Your brain can't be the exact same as someone elses" :cuckoo:


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11488215 -

Please give any text from a book that defines telepathy in the way that you're using.  I'll be surprised if you can find any.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: deCypher]
    #11488222 -

One who has telepathic powers is said to be able to hear peoples' thoughts, no?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11488236 -

Sure, but I don't see how that's having the same point of awareness as another person.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: deCypher]
    #11488243 -

If you can hear peoples' thoughts (which is one of their perceptions), then you are perceiving their perception.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11488250 -

Could be that I'm hearing a spoken sentence of the words that they're thinking.  This is informational content.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11488251 -

:facepalm: Here we go again.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11488273 -

it may be physically impossible but it's not mentally impossible!

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: deCypher]
    #11489226 -

deCypher said:
Could be that I'm hearing a spoken sentence of the words that they're thinking.  This is informational content.



Well, obviously it's informational content; I don't see how it being so makes telepathy any more possible. :shrug:


I'm still having problems with accepting that one organism can perceive any perceptions that aren't theirs. :confused2:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (06/06/11 02:54 AM)

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11489254 -

yeah but if people could read each others thoughts there would be new laws, can anyone think of some laws there would be, like you wouldn't be able to think of someone when your jerking off or you'd get tried for mind-rape and pay a fine

Edited by giza (11/19/09 09:42 PM)

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: giza]
    #11489550 -

tele-pathy...

maybe just a word to describe a possible sense humans have of detecting ones seperation from the commutable.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: akira_akuma]
    #11490037 -

does anyone else practice it even though theres no proof of it yet?

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11490470 -

Poid said:
What does that have to do with anything? My brain produced the perception of the bird, and the bird itself has its own brain that produces its own perceptions.



It has everything to do with it. The existence of the bird is established. The existence of the thoughts or information of someone else's brain is established.
Through the capabilities of the sensory device known as the eye, accompanied with the processing capabilities of the brain regarding the collected sensory data from the eye, one perceives the bird.
Likewise, it could be possible that the same brain is capable of perceiving the thoughts or information from someone else's brain through some unknown sensory mechanism.
All that is required is a sensory device within the brain which is perceiving the other, a means by which the thoughts and information from the other brain is accessible to the perceiving brain to collect as sensory information, and a processing capability of the perceiving brain to effectively utilize the collected sensory information.
That is exactly how one person perceives the Poid bird passing by, and that's precisely how telepathy could function, if it were to function.
You've already acknowledged this - you simply think it would be a necessity for the brains to be physically connected in order for this to occur.
I personally don't see why this would necessarily have to be the case - hence the example of the perception of a bird and the subsequent explanation. :wink:





Quote:
The telepathy theory asserts that one creature can perceive the perceptions of another creature; considering that perception is produced by a living brain, how is it hard to understand that telepathy is physically impossible?



Why do you think the idea that perception is produced by a functioning brain necessarily precludes the possibility of telepathy?
It is simply a question of whether or not there is a process through which the information that is perception is accessible for inter-brain communication.

Whether or not telepathy is actually impossible is determined solely by the matter of whether or not there is actually a mechanism that allows for this exchange of information amongst two living brains.

Until you actually demonstrate that this is the case, it is impossible to rule that it is impossible. :lol:
That isn't to say that it is very likely that it is possible. The more we understand regarding how the brain does function, the more we understand its structure and its processes, the more we will be able to determine just how likely it is, no different than, from understanding the components and functions of a dish-washer, we can reasonably surmise that the dish-washer isn't capable of algebraic equations.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible *DELETED* [Re: deCypher]
    #11490639 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: No reason.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11490976 -

Wikipedia doesn't say that you have to be the same point of awareness as the person whose perceptions your perceiving, infact it's implicit in the question of telepathy that they must be two different points of awareness. There is absoloutely no reason you can't make your own perception of others perceptions. You can attempt to do this through normal methods of communication anyway.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11491597 -

I had a very intense experience with telepathy, in fact that was the day my entire life changed forever. See a very large reason I even think the way I do, and how I ended up here 3 years later is from this trip.

Me and this girl both ate 4 grams of fresh, very strong tasting, pscilicibe cubensis (sp?). And set off into the woods, we reached the summit at around the peak, an area upon a hill where all the trees were cut down and everything was regrowing. The sun was just hitting up on the hill when we began to start peaking.

I remember clear as day that we were both perceiving on an expanded field of consciousness. We tried talking but soon realized that everything became very glossolic and wandering all the time t'ill we both could sense each others thoughts, feelings and emotions at the exact same time. The weird part was that there was no delay, it felt like we were both riding the wave of energy around us and were in tune with it instead of living in our own dissonant energy fields. We would go somewhere and the mind became tethered, I didnt have to speak anymore, liberating really. Problem was if she ever got too far away I started feeling sick and a major energy loss, and things would become evil, which happened once. Anyways thought id share.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Gilgamex]
    #11491610 -

I've had that kind of stuff, perhaps even more startling, probably most on this forum have but to say it's real for sure is to trust your own brain too much IMO.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: fireworks_god]
    #11492106 -

I concede to and agree with your points. :bow:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11492210 -

I hear the argument a lot why dont people with telepathy get a million bucks and become a super star with their powers

but those who gain these kinds of powers, also gain a greater understanding of human nature

they know the second they displayed the powers, they would be abducted  by the government and lose all their rights

the government is as against telepathy being known as they are aliens (that is why modern life is one distraction after another, from making our higher selves known to us)

though if you are more scientific / logic minded this means nothing to you but there are worlds available to us. a new movie came out last week which shows you some, man who stare at goats, yet people still dont believe in the power of the mind or astral plane, when it's right there in plain view (the best place to hide)

Edited by percy (11/20/09 11:40 AM)

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: percy]
    #11492230 -

i agree having a deep relationship with someone is telepathetic in many ways, sexual energy is one of the key powerful forces we as humans deal with and it can be guided beyond sexual activity (such as joined astral projection)

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: percy]
    #11492243 -

percy said:
they know the second they displayed the powers, they would be abducted  by the government and lose all their rights


How do they know this? :tinfoil:



percy said:
the government is as against telepathy being known as they are aliens...


Let me guess, you have absolutely no proof to back up this assertion? :haha:



percy said:
...(that is why modern life is one distraction after another...


Wouldn't life in the woods be the same way, in terms of things being one distraction after another? :strokebeard2:



percy said:
...from making our higher selves known to us)


And WTF is our "higher self"? :confused2:



percy said:
though if you are more scientific / logic minded this means nothing to you but there are worlds available to us.


There are worlds available to us? This tells me a lot...:rolleyes:



percy said:
...a new movie came out last week which shows you some, man who stare at goats


Oh, really?



percy said:
...yet people still dont believe in the power of the mind or astral plane, when it's rig


How is a movie about a man who stares at goats in any way proof of "the power of the mind" and/or the "astral plane"? :undecided:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (06/06/11 02:56 AM)

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11504521 -

The dogs police the sheep in any society. But its then those sheep who start policing the sheep.

I can understand the idea of blatantly putting the idea out about the power of the mind to control reality as being a deterrent, good point.

Abduction by government doesnt sound fishy and since ive had experiences with UFO's more than once im open to that idea, albeit its a bit speculative. Also makes me wonder about the Vatican...another day...

But all in all if you were fully telepathic and you had no one else to share that power with you would go stark raving mad unless you knew how to control it. Id get so sad personally because i tend to hold the woes of the world as my own anyways....

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: percy]
    #11504583 -

Quote:
but those who gain these kinds of powers, also gain a greater understanding of human nature



They would never reveal their powers, but they revealed them to you?


--------------------

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: percy]
    #11504668 -

percy said:
I hear the argument a lot why dont people with telepathy get a million bucks and become a super star with their powers

but those who gain these kinds of powers, also gain a greater understanding of human nature

they know the second they displayed the powers, they would be abducted  by the government and lose all their rights

the government is as against telepathy being known as they are aliens (that is why modern life is one distraction after another, from making our higher selves known to us)

though if you are more scientific / logic minded this means nothing to you but there are worlds available to us. a new movie came out last week which shows you some, man who stare at goats, yet people still dont believe in the power of the mind or astral plane, when it's right there in plain view (the best place to hide)



i've thought about getting captured for super natural abilities but i believe if you truly have faith in yourself you would gain the strnegth to easily get out of that dilemna

Edited by giza (11/22/09 02:18 PM)

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: giza]
    #11504708 -

Me too!


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Icelander]
    #11504721 -

i was thinking what would trigger an insane power up, say God got captured somehow, if god lost 1 drop of blood unvoluntarily it would trigger rage, i've thought it to work for me so i stabbed myself but nothing happened

Edited by giza (11/22/09 02:26 PM)

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: giza]
    #11504825 -

giza said:
i was thinking what would trigger an insane power up, say God got captured somehow, if god lost 1 drop of blood unvoluntarily it would trigger rage, i've thought it to work for me so i stabbed myself but nothing happened



But did you only lose one drop of blood?
And it sounds voluntary- your attempt.

So of course it didn't work.


--------------------

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11505883 -

maybe some become telepathic in dreams and figures out how to control the minds of the ones in 'reality' while they're in dreamworld

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: giza]
    #11505955 -

If telepathy is physically impossible, how do we explain instincts? Or let me ask a better question, have we ever seriously given thought about where instincts come from? To me it seems humanity has never considered how all humans have the same instints, regardless of difference in genes or race or culture or location.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Diaboleros]
    #11505985 -

Quote:
If telepathy is physically impossible, how do we explain instincts?



If I like strawberries, how come there is snow on the mountain?


--------------------

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Diaboleros]
    #11505996 -

I think the fact that all humans are decended from a common ancestor explains the presence of similar instincts through out humanity better than assuming telepathy.


--------------------

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11506009 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
If telepathy is physically impossible, how do we explain instincts?



If I like strawberries, how come there is snow on the mountain?



Because snow falls there. Now try to answer my question instead of completely ignoring it.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11506014 -

shivas.wisdom said:
I think the fact that all humans are decended from a common ancestor explains the presence of similar instincts through out humanity better than assuming telepathy.



If they came from a common ancestor, they should be static, the same for all eternity. Instincts evolve and yet everyone keeps having the same instincts. How do you explain that?

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Diaboleros]
    #11506031 -

Your question was a non sequitur, the premise was in no way related to the conclusion - vis a vis my statement.


--------------------

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11506114 -

Lol dude, you're doing it again, ignoring my question, you're like going blablabla I can't hear you. How about responding to the question? Stop ignoring me. Where do instincts come from?

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Diaboleros]
    #11506170 -

Diaboleros said:
Instincts evolve and yet everyone keeps having the same instincts. How do you explain that?



People are able to communicate using their mouths to form words and their ears to listen for these words. Much more likely than doing it through telepathy.

It seems most people are not claiming to be telepaths, so how are they getting the information too, according to you?


--------------------

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Diaboleros]
    #11506290 -

Quote:
How about responding to the question?



:blah:

Seeing as how this thread is not about instincts and I never claimed to be an expert on such, I respectfully decline.


--------------------

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11506738 -

Does seeing the future fall under telepathic powers?

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: oxalic32]
    #11506929 -

Are you reading a future persons mind?


--------------------

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11509071 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Diaboleros said:
Instincts evolve and yet everyone keeps having the same instincts. How do you explain that?



People are able to communicate using their mouths to form words and their ears to listen for these words. Much more likely than doing it through telepathy.

It seems most people are not claiming to be telepaths, so how are they getting the information too, according to you?



Everyone's subconscious mind is telepathic, hence intuition. How can you know that your subconscious mind is not shared if you don't even have full access to it?

How do you explain the synchronization of instincts all over the world even with cultures and tribes who have never ever met eachother! Sure they were orignally all one tribe, but the instincts evolved... how did they say the same for everyone?

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Diaboleros]
    #11509616 -

Diaboleros said:
If telepathy is physically impossible, how do we explain instincts?


It is arguable that humans do not even have any instincts, and that the behavior that they exhibit is merely the result of infant/childhood/adolescent conditioning. :shrug:



meatcakeman said:
Or let me ask a better question, have we ever seriously given thought about where instincts come from?


I certainly have! :lol:



meatcakeman said:
To me it seems humanity has never considered how all humans have the same instints, regardless of difference in genes or race or culture or location.


Well, you are wrong, because scientists have been considering this for quite some time now; aren't scientists part of humanity? :strokebeard:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Diaboleros]
    #11509631 -

Diaboleros said:
shivas.wisdom said:
Diaboleros said:
Instincts evolve and yet everyone keeps having the same instincts. How do you explain that?



People are able to communicate using their mouths to form words and their ears to listen for these words. Much more likely than doing it through telepathy.

It seems most people are not claiming to be telepaths, so how are they getting the information too, according to you?



Everyone's subconscious mind is telepathic, hence intuition.


Yeah, and we all know how much more accurate intuition is than logical thought in terms of predicting events! :lol:



Diaboleros said:
How can you know that your subconscious mind is not shared if you don't even have full access to it?


Shared in what way? You describe the mechanism in which telepathy operates.



Diaboleros said:
How do you explain the synchronization of instincts all over the world even with cultures and tribes who have never ever met eachother!


Again, it is arguable that humans do not even have instincs.

Is it really so amazing that organisms of the same species share some similraities? :eek:



Diaboleros said:
Sure they were orignally all one tribe, but the instincts evolved... how did they say the same for everyone?


Prove that they are the same for everyone. :waits:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Diaboleros]
    #11509695 -

I had a cosmologist give a presentation at my university on his theory of beginnings of the universe.  It was very complicated and interesting, but there was a part about conciousness I found very interesting.

He was talking about how humans actually get "conscious moments" which he defined as the brain collapsing its own wave function.  He was saying that an electron could have a conscious moment once every 100 million years, where something the size of our brain could have a conscious moment every say 25 milliseconds.  And hence our idea of time is just the flow of these conscious moments.  He said that some physicist hold the theory that there was a conciousness created with the big bang, of all the matter in the universe collapsing its wave function.  And that all conciousness can only arise because of this original conciousness of the big bang.  It could be humans are just nodes in a larger field.  We just don't know yet.

We don't know enough about conciousness to cast off theories of telepathy.  Secondly, some of these theories suggest the believe that we are

These are not fringe scientists, but respectable physicists.

And the statement, that it is physically impossible is absolutely ridiculous.

Before the discovery of X-rays, it was physically impossible to have light rays pass through an opaque object (your hand).  The first evidence of X-rays were published in a newspaper, rather than a scientific journal by the people who discovered it, because they thought the scientific community would cast it off as a hoax.

Our understanding of physics is not large enough to make these claims, and our understanding of what conciousness is even more inadequate.

Imo empathy holds some aspects of subconscious telepathy.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Cannashroom]
    #11509719 -

Cannashroom said:
Imo empathy holds some aspects of subconscious telepathy.


The mirror-neuron theory explains empathy pretty well--there's no need to resort to logically baseless psuedo-scientific theories when there are already decent scientific explanations. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11509808 -

So what are your thoughs on the 100th monkey experiment? How do you explain the monkeys from different islands suddenly gaining the same skills as monkeys on another island, without physical contact?

I don't know if you're into programming, but object oriented programming, the hierarchical structure of objects gives a pretty good explanation of the mechanics behind telepathy. The hivemind branches off in individual minds. It's not that you can read minds, it's more that we all think the same becaus we have the same base-mind, we all have the same subconscious.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11509828 -

Yes that bundle of neurons is firing, but that doesn't prove what stimulated them.  That doesn't negate the possibility that the stimulus is coming from something more than visual cues.  Maybe the mirror-neuron system is connected to telepathy?

Furthermore, the neurons firing for empathy are not the same as the hand action mirror-neurons.  They are just implicated in it, there is no strong scientific theory yet, but it is an interesting area of research.

I just have people saying my thoughts all the time. I have seen through my experience the subconscious telepathy function all the time.  And I feel personally that empathy shares some of those qualities.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Diaboleros]
    #11509839 -

Diaboleros said:
So what are your thoughs on the 100th monkey experiment? How do you explain the monkeys from different islands suddenly gaining the same skills as monkeys on another island, without physical contact?


Were they all the same species? :lol:



Diaboleros said:
I don't know if you're into programming, but object oriented programming, the hierarchical structure of objects gives a pretty good explanation of the mechanics behind telepathy.


But does it offer proof?



Diaboleros said:
The hivemind branches off in individual minds. It's not that you can read minds, it's more that we all think the same becaus we have the same base-mind, we all have the same subconscious.


If we all had "the same subconscious", then as soon as one individual person's life ends, then everybody's subconscious would end, too.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11509885 -

Poid said:

Diaboleros said:
The hivemind branches off in individual minds. It's not that you can read minds, it's more that we all think the same becaus we have the same base-mind, we all have the same subconscious.


If we all had "the same subconscious", then as soon as one individual person's life ends, then everybody's subconscious would end, too.



That's not true at all.  If your cell phone dies, does the network go down?  You're just a receiver of the signal, not the origination.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Cannashroom]
    #11509909 -

Cannashroom said:
If your cell phone dies, does the network go down?


No, but since you're comparing the subconscious to cell-phone networks, it would be nice if you offered evidence to prove that this is the way the subconscious works.



Cannashroom said:
You're just a receiver of the signal, not the origination.


So the origin of each human organism's subconscious its brain?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11510001 -

I'm here to discuss new ideas, not to provide scientific evidence for those new ideas I just came up with. How can I possibly have evidence hwen I just wrote down this new idea?

What you are telling me is to shut up if I don't have evidence. But guess what, in order to generate evidence, you need to talk first. First you talk, assume, imagine different scenarios.. but you need two people to talk! if one of the two people keeps wanting evidence all the time and refuses to talk before he gets evidence, the talking will never get finished, and the second step, generating evidence, will never be achieved. By demanding evidence first, you block  the process that it takes to generate evidence.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Diaboleros]
    #11510424 -

Diaboleros said:
I'm here to discuss new ideas, not to provide scientific evidence for those new ideas I just came up with. How can I possibly have evidence hwen I just wrote down this new idea?



Mysticism & the Paranormal



Diaboleros said:
What you are telling me is to shut up if I don't have evidence.


Pretty much. :shrug:

If you're not posting in this debate-oriented forum to debate, then what in the fuck are you posting in here for?



Diaboleros said:
But guess what, in order to generate evidence, you need to talk first. First you talk, assume, imagine different scenarios..


I did talk; I asked you to defend your assertions, and you failed to do so.



Diaboleros said:
if one of the two people keeps wanting evidence all the time and refuses to talk before he gets evidence, the talking will never get finished, and the second step, generating evidence, will never be achieved.


If you refuse to provide evidence for your assertions, I'll probably get bored and stop responding to your replies; if you continue to debate in this manner, then the talking with me will be fairly short, I promise! :awesome:



Diaboleros said:
By demanding evidence first, you block  the process that it takes to generate evidence.


By not defending your assertions, you are failing at debate. Period, dude. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11510432 -

Lol please, how did the first scientist do his job? There was no evidnece at all... so the first scientist should have shut up? That's probably why they burnt people on the stake in the Dark Ages, because they had a mentality like you. I think you are being very disrespectful, but ok, I guess thatts just how you treat yourself and life in general so I'm not taking it personal.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Diaboleros]
    #11510469 -

Diaboleros said:
Lol please, how did the first scientist do his job? There was no evidnece at all... so the first scientist should have shut up?


I would bet that s/he followed the scientific method. :shrug:



Diaboleros said:
That's probably why they burnt people on the stake in the Dark Ages, because they had a mentality like you.


What do you mean by this? I don't agree with murdering innocent people at all. :confused:



Diaboleros said:
I think you are being very disrespectful, but ok,


I'm just telling the truth; sometimes, it hurts. :shrug:



Diaboleros said:
I guess thatts just how you treat yourself and life in general so I'm not taking it personal.


That's good; you shouldn't let assholes get you down, man. :goatse:

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11510492 -

Lol, your words seem to have no purpose whatsoever. What is the point of your posts?

Nobody believes in telepathy. Trying to disprove telepathy is like carrying water to the sea.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Diaboleros]
    #11521041 -

Diaboleros said:
Lol please, how did the first scientist do his job? There was no evidnece at all... so the first scientist should have shut up? That's probably why they burnt people on the stake in the Dark Ages, because they had a mentality like you. I think you are being very disrespectful, but ok, I guess thatts just how you treat yourself and life in general so I'm not taking it personal.



i think they burnt people FOR speaking out. imo

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Diaboleros]
    #11521917 -

Nobody believes in telepathy

Now who's being delusional.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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