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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11486753 -

Grapefruit said:
"Telepathy is any form of communication without the use of the senses, sight, hearing, taste, smell and touch."

This statement in no way proves that telepathy is necessarily not impossible. At all. :nonono:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11486798 -

Just because we have no idea by what mechanism it would operate doesn't mean there is no possible way it could operate. This akin to saying that because somebody has no idea how things could fall down to earth it is not possible that they do (assuming this person is a total outsider to this earth and has never observed the phenomena).


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Edited by Grapefruit (11/19/09 04:35 PM)

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11486807 -

Grapefruit said:
Just because we have no idea by what mechanism it would operate doesn't mean there is no possible way it could operate.

I'm not saying this, though, all I'm asking for is a statement that proves that it is necessarily not impossible. And you haven't given it to me.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11486830 -

Poid said:
They would literally have to physically become one obviously, if this were to happen, both of the creatures would die as a result.


Do you have to physically merge with a bird in order to perceive it flying by?
Now, I am near completely indifferent to the topic of telepathy, but it isn't hard to notice a glitch in your argument, and that is the presumption that there is no possibility of some manner of communication between two brains, taking place through sensory devices yet undiscovered, that doesn't rely on a physical merging to take place.

You certainly haven't demonstrated through such a line of thinking that telepathy is physically impossible. Maybe you should edit the title of this thread. :nono:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11486831 -

Quote:
    Quote:
    Kickle said:
    As for perception of this energy... well, that's why it's referred to as the 6th sense. And no, there is no evidence that we can detect this energy.

No matter what, an organism can only perceive its own perceptions.

/of.


/of?

Why do you claim this? If energy which is perceived EXTERNALLY by the brain contains a certain energetic response WITHIN the brain, and this INTERNAL response generates energy which then is displaced EXTERNALLY, why exactly is it impossible for this produced energy to be perceived?

We do this all the time with fMRIs, EEGs, PET scans, etc.
If we can't observe what a person is perceiving, how exactly do we know what areas of the brain are associated with smell? Lucky guess?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11486839 -

Quote:
Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible


You are saying that, this is what I am arguing against.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11486878 -

Grapefruit said:
Why do I have to? I have no idea how telepathy would work and nor does anyone else. My point is it is not impossible.


Exactly.

I am not in here trying to prove that telepathy is possible, merely to prove that you have not proven it impossible.


Your reasoning depends on the assumption that perception/thought originate from the physical brain. Unless you can prove that is true (and not from an immaterial mind) beyond a doubt, your conclusion is meaningless and based on a false assumption.
Seeing that a living body perceives, while a dead or inanimate one doesn't, does not connect perception to a living brain, but to living bodies- which also have an immaterial mind.

Show me how you come to this conclusion.


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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Kickle]
    #11486892 -

fireworks_god said:
Poid said:
They would literally have to physically become one obviously, if this were to happen, both of the creatures would die as a result.


Do you have to physically merge with a bird in order to perceive it flying by?

What does that have to do with anything? My brain produced the perception of the bird, and the bird itself has its own brain that produces its own perceptions.



fireworks_god said:
Now, I am near completely indifferent to the topic of telepathy, but it isn't hard to notice a glitch in your argument, and that is the presumption that there is no possibility of some manner of communication between two brains, taking place through sensory devices yet undiscovered, that doesn't rely on a physical merging to take place.

The telepathy theory asserts that one creature can perceive the perceptions of another creature; considering that perception is produced by a living brain, how is it hard to understand that telepathy is physically impossible?



Quote:
Kickle said:
If energy which is perceived EXTERNALLY by the brain...

What exactly do you mean by this? Can you give an example?



Kickle said:
...contains a certain energetic response WITHIN the brain, and this INTERNAL response generates energy which then is displaced EXTERNALLY...

What do you mean by "displaced EXTERNALLY"?



Kickle said:
...why exactly is it impossible for this produced energy to be perceived?

I'm not quite sure exactly what energy you're talking about, but whatever a creature perceives is its own perception.



Kickle said:
We do this all the time with fMRIs, EEGs, PET scans, etc.
If we can't observe what a person is perceiving, how exactly do we know what areas of the brain are associated with smell? Lucky guess?

We know via the use of modern technologies such as the ones you mentioned.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11486894 -

Even if it is contained solely within the brain, it isn't an impossibility.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11486902 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Show me how you come to this conclusion.

Do MRI machines capture any information from dead brains? :strokebeard:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487000 -

It could be an impossibility, true, i take that back it's not what I meant but this is not necessarily the case and you haven't proved it is impossible as you just admitted .


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11487035 -

Grapefruit said:
...you haven't proved it is impossible as you just admitted .

But I have proved this, over and over throughout this thread.


A creature has its own body, its own organs, and its own perceptions; the telepathy theory asserts that one organism can somehow perceive another organism's perceptions. Considering that perception is produced by the brain, it makes absolutely no sense that one organism can perceive another organism's thoughts.

Can you feel my heart beating? :heartpump:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487051 -

Quote:
Kickle said:
    If energy which is perceived EXTERNALLY by the brain...

What exactly do you mean by this? Can you give an example?



I feel heat rising from my stove. This heat is not contained within my brain, it is energy external to my brain which I perceive.

Quote:
    Quote:
    Kickle said:
    ...contains a certain energetic response WITHIN the brain, and this INTERNAL response generates energy which then is displaced EXTERNALLY...


What do you mean by "displaced EXTERNALLY"?


I mean that just as the heat from the stove, my brain in action is producing energy which, once more exists in the external world. We detect this using the machines I mentioned earlier.

Quote:
    Quote:
    Kickle said:
    ...why exactly is it impossible for this produced energy to be perceived?

I'm not quite sure exactly what energy you're talking about,


I'm talking about the energy that is emitted by our brain upon activation. We sense something, we react, we emit energy. It needn't even be motor movement, our brain itself emits energy.

Quote:
but whatever a creature perceives is its own perception.


Are you claiming that no external world exists? Do we not perceive something outside of ourselves? I see a tree, therefore you cannot see the tree, because it is MY perception alone? Am I misunderstanding you here?

Quote:
We know via the use of modern technologies such as the ones you mentioned.


Right, so something objective exists which informs us of what another is perceiving. If the brain were capable of detecting this energy, not necessarily in the same way as a machine does it, it would also make sense for it to be able to make sense of these external stimuli. A system which detects energy (every sense perception we or any other animal has) is only useful because it provides usable information. Detecting the energy of another would be worthless if it was not also organized and interpreted by the brain. Detecting another humans perceptions would be most easily organized by giving you the same perceptions as the other, because the perceptual system between both individuals is the same. It wouldn't make sense to turn a smell into a sound simply because both individuals can smell. Then, from there, what is done with the perception would be dependent upon consciousness.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Kickle]
    #11487064 -

Kickle said:
...our brain itself emits energy.

Energy, yes. Thoughts, no.

And even if it did emit thoughts, any creature who perceived those thoughts would have done so via its own perception.



Kickle said:
Am I misunderstanding you here?

You are.



Kickle said:
Detecting another humans perceptions would be most easily organized by giving you the same perceptions as the other, because the perceptual system between both individuals is the same.

How does this change the fact that each human is perceiving their own perceptions? :confused:



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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487085 -

You are assuming that this is a materialistic existence, when this is not necessarily the case.

What about idealism?
What about dualism?
What about pluralism?


--------------------

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487090 -

So are thoughts not energy?
I thought you were the materialist of the bunch.

If thoughts produce energy (via the brain) then this energy output has the potential to be detected, just as any other energy output.
It's really simple Poid, I don't know what exactly you're refuting about this.

If I am misunderstanding, you need to make attempts at clarifying.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487111 -

Poid said:
And even if it did emit thoughts, any creature who perceived those thoughts would have done so via its own perception.


How else do you expect it to perceive something? Telepathy is being in another mind, with the context and thoughts of your mind.


--------------------

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Kickle]
    #11487124 -

shivas.wisdom said:
What about idealism?
What about dualism?
What about pluralism?

If you have something to say about those things, then why don't you say it? :lol:



Kickle said:
So are thoughts not energy?

Not the same energy that is detected by MRI machines and such.



Kickle said:
I thought you were the materialist of the bunch.

Yeah, I'm pretty damn materialistic. :coaster:



Kickle said:
If thoughts produce energy (via the brain) then this energy output has the potential to be detected, just as any other energy output.

I'm not so sure that thoughts produce energy, rather, I would think that they are a product of an "energetic system", for lack of a better term.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: Poid]
    #11487125 -

I could make up an absolute ton of ways that communication between minds without the senses could operate which you cannot prove wrong.

1. There is an astral plane and such a thing as mind which is seperate to the brain but communicates with it and other minds on the spiritual plane.

2. Brains can communicate by sending information over Shupenbertokal waves that bypass physical barriers sending information into other brains unconscious.

3. Brains can communicate through special Glopal birds that take in information by sensing it in vocal patterns that whisper Bullshitengal sound inaudible to the conscious mind and undetectable to man made machines that conveys perceptions of other humans by maniupulating frequencies that make perceptions move into the same patterns as others perceptions of other humans.

See where I'm going with this...?

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Re: Legitimate Telepathic Powers are Physically Impossible [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11487137 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Poid said:
And even if it did emit thoughts, any creature who perceived those thoughts would have done so via its own perception.


Telepathy is being in another mind...

Just like demon possession. :satansmoking:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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